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Author Topic: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011  (Read 13087 times)

Dread Moores

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #30 on: 21 November 2011, 14:22:54 »
I'm more curious about his statement that future TRO/Record Sheets won't contain it. That sounds like it will be dropped before the new system is in place. And I could see that leading to some hilarious matchups.

Weirdo

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #31 on: 21 November 2011, 14:56:00 »
In my group it'll mean that new units won't be used at all until the new system is fully implemented, including a near-complete point list like the MUL.
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Mostro Joe

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #32 on: 21 November 2011, 18:57:08 »
I'm genuinely surprised there's not more chatter about the death of BV2.0. Regardless of the opinions about it, that's a fairly big bomb for Herb to drop during chat. The fact that anything was said at all makes me curious how far along the replacement is in the development process.

Well, for now there was nothing more to say. The BV is dying... ok. Let's await the next system.

willydstyle

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #33 on: 21 November 2011, 19:40:21 »
The problem is if they get rid of BV2 without having the next system *fully* integrated into the MUL, TROs and record sheets. Don't get rid of something that works well (albeit clunkily, and with some quirks) until you have the replacement ready.

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #34 on: 21 November 2011, 20:04:08 »
That's the thing - it doesn't work well.  One of the problems Herb specifically listed was the tendency towards inconsistent results in calculation.  Two people calculating the same unit would get two different numbers.  It apparently even happens in programs designed to calculate it.  That says there is an inherent flaw in the calculating system, and it throws every single published BV into doubt.

BeeRockxs

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #35 on: 22 November 2011, 09:21:23 »
It's not an inherent flaw, it's just that there are so many corner cases where the wording is not 100% clear, and that you can't catch all those corner cases when writing the formulas up the first time, just as they happen, and then you have to errata the wording time and time again.

Mostro Joe

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #36 on: 22 November 2011, 11:26:17 »
I never used the BV too often anyway...

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #37 on: 22 November 2011, 12:06:52 »
In my group it'll mean that new units won't be used at all until the new system is fully implemented, including a near-complete point list like the MUL.

I am curious why, Weirdo? My group basicly gave up on Battlevalue a long time ago because it breaks down. Heck, I saw at the
Grand Melee at GenCon this year that Battlevalue really didn't balance it out. One 'mech should NOT be engaged by 3 'mechs,
and leave them all hurting before it goes down...if you have 3 times the battle value on one unit, that one unit should go down
HARD.

Battle Value is so flawed, its death is necessary. I can usually balance better by eyeballing the 'mechs, vehicles, and infantry,
and who they are getting assigned to then BattleValue ever could.
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Atlas3060

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #38 on: 22 November 2011, 12:52:53 »
Our group uses 6k max for a BV2 fight as a way of keeping players somewhat balanced.
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A. Lurker

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #39 on: 22 November 2011, 12:58:20 »
Our group uses 6k max for a BV2 fight as a way of keeping players somewhat balanced.

...you mean the player's respective forces, right? ;)

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #40 on: 22 November 2011, 13:00:16 »
No every player has a weight limit, if you're over 6k you're out.  ;D
We play on a mountaintop with a very dangerous slope, its the cool way to play extreme Battletech.
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nckestrel

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #41 on: 22 November 2011, 13:04:32 »
Battle Value is so flawed, its death is necessary. I can usually balance better by eyeballing the 'mechs, vehicles, and infantry,
and who they are getting assigned to then BattleValue ever could.

And how to do you balance two different people's "eyeballing"?  Or do you just never allow player's to bring their own forces?  Or do they bring them and then you say "nope, that's too much, i'm taking away your X 'mechs or lowering X 'mechs skills because I think so"? 
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willydstyle

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #42 on: 22 November 2011, 13:05:41 »
And how to do you balance two different people's "eyeballing"?  Or do you just never allow player's to bring their own forces?  Or do they bring them and then you say "nope, that's too much, i'm taking away your X 'mechs or lowering X 'mechs skills because I think so"?

Obviously, his eyeballing is the best eyeballing :D

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #43 on: 22 November 2011, 13:09:16 »
Obviously, his eyeballing is the best eyeballing :D

But his eyeballs can only be in one place at a time.  :).  What I'm saying is there is an entire style of play that requires some, external to any one set of eyeballs, balancing factor that each player can determine for themselves and know that the other players will at least recognize that they followed the rules of that style of play for balancing a force.  Not everybody, nor necessarily a majority of players, may play that way, but it's still fairly significant.
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willydstyle

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #44 on: 22 November 2011, 13:15:01 »
I guess you missed the sarcasm in my post.  The human brain bases so much of its reasoning on internal biases, that I agree with you: what looks "pretty good" to one player might not look good to another player, and it's very, very difficult to *not* stack the deck in our own favor, again simply due to how our brains work.

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #45 on: 22 November 2011, 13:24:53 »
I guess you missed the sarcasm in my post.  The human brain bases so much of its reasoning on internal biases, that I agree with you: what looks "pretty good" to one player might not look good to another player, and it's very, very difficult to *not* stack the deck in our own favor, again simply due to how our brains work.

I got it, I wanted to provoke more discussion.  While some styles of play work for individuals, as a group I believe we should want the game to support more styles of play that just that which we play as an individual.  (Though we obviously want our style of play done right and first! :) ).  The random pickup game, tournament, megamek wars, etc are significant contributors to the BattleTech player base, and assuming a goal of a larger player base, they should be supported. 

So even if you (generic, not refering to any one specifically) don't play with BV or any other numeric balancing system, there are advantages to you from a larger player base for BattleTech having such a system.
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willydstyle

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #46 on: 22 November 2011, 13:32:57 »
Yes, I agree, because it allows you to game with people who don't share your unique vision.

majesticmoose

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #47 on: 22 November 2011, 13:55:29 »
Herb also said he wants something more abstract.

Could this mean a move to a letter grade style of ranking?

Something liek the availability tables for an individual piece of equipment?

If a timber wolf was a rank A mech, would that tell you enough vs a rank C summoner variant?

Would it be worth while to have those sub-divisions for various stats? Offense, Durability, speed, equipment/extras, logisitcs?

so would a Timber wolf Prime be A/B/C/E/B?

Where should the line of simplification and abstraction be drawn?

willydstyle

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #48 on: 22 November 2011, 13:57:04 »
I think the game itself has a large enough "luck factor" that having a fairly abstract system would be just fine.  BV2 only brings a rough balance to the game, but I *like* having that rough balance.

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #49 on: 22 November 2011, 17:38:15 »
I was hoping for a slightly more restricted unit selection system, like Mega Mek.

Right now, when you build a force that is "legal" it restricts the amount of Infantry, Vehicles, and Aero that can be used in direct correlation to the number of mechs you are fielding. They've even restricted the number of Assault mechs you can field in relation to the number of other weight classes at one time or another.

Games Workshop developed a "Force Organization Chart" in it's games to prevent abuse of over powerful units such as Heavy support choices (units with an over abundance of Heavy Weapons, battle tanks), fast attack choices (units with high mobility and firepower), and HQ choices (single model characters with the power to wipe out whole squads or change the flow of the game using other powers), among other things.

I'm not saying that CGL should try to mirror GW, but they should definitely consider some type of "army list" that will allow players to field fair and balanced forces when playing competitive pick up games vs a campaign. As it was pointed out, fairness may be in the eye of the beholder when playing against someone else.

A new BV system may be the beginning, but I believe it is only part of a true long term solution.
« Last Edit: 23 November 2011, 01:16:21 by Wraithcannon »
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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #50 on: 23 November 2011, 00:13:33 »
And how to do you balance two different people's "eyeballing"?  Or do you just never allow player's to bring their own forces?  Or do they bring them and then you say "nope, that's too much, i'm taking away your X 'mechs or lowering X 'mechs skills because I think so"?

Well, considering my group does scenario play, very little in the way of "pick up games," that is part of it..playing what the scenario
gives you.

Additionally, since we have the capability to print up stuff on the spot, when we do do stuff that allows players to pick..eh, well,
frankly, we stick with our group standard of 3G/4P skills, and let the players pick what they want. In my experience, as long as all
the pilot skills are the same, the fight is balanced. If you cannot beat an Atlas II with an LCT-1M when you picked the LCT knowing
you were facing the Atlas II...then that is your fault. Player skill is the biggest variable that no system like Battlevalue, Combat Value,
etc can adequately account for, and will always be the real determination of which side is going to win or lose.
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A. Lurker

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #51 on: 23 November 2011, 03:43:49 »
Player skill is the biggest variable that no system like Battlevalue, Combat Value,
etc can adequately account for, and will always be the real determination of which side is going to win or lose.

Of course they can't account for player skill. That's not what they're for in the first place, after all; they're there to help make the game "fair" precisely so player skill can be the deciding factor in the outcome.

If you truly want to account for differences in playing skill, you can always ask the better player (assuming that's established) if they're willing to handicap themselves. But that's not something a force rating system needs to concern itself overmuch with; ideally it should be able to provide both players with a good idea of what a given handicap is actually "worth", but that's about it.

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #52 on: 23 November 2011, 04:13:59 »
Of course they can't account for player skill. That's not what they're for in the first place, after all; they're there to help make the game "fair" precisely so player skill can be the deciding factor in the outcome.

Actually: they are supposed to make the game even. The problem is: If I were to Mirror Match one of my newer players,
chances are that, unless I deliberately made mistakes, I would win. For it to be a fair fight, I would have to take a
different 'mech..say, I have a player running an Atlas, I would have to, to be fair, run a Vindicator just so he would
have a chance...note: that is a Vindicator with the same skill level as his Atlas, likely on an open map.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #53 on: 23 November 2011, 07:55:19 »
BV2 isn't perfect, but its still the best system I've ever seen for BT games.

Sure it has areas that don't work well (FSM, C3, Heat, To-Hit Mods), but I'd like to think those can be fixed for "BV3.0" instead of just scrapping the system.

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #54 on: 23 November 2011, 08:51:23 »
I was honestly perfectly happy with BV1 and BV2. They did exactly what I needed, which was to give me a rough baseline to balance with(in addition to situational effects and my own judgment, of course), so that my group could quickly throw together forces that wouldn't grossly overpower each other. A lot better than our last method, which was to simply bring a company, any company. By those standards, a company of three foot infantry platoons was considered equal to twelve Thunder Hawks. Needless to say, I'm hoping that ________ does exactly the same thing as BV, only being simpler to calculate. Things like terrain and player skill are outside the points system, and it's up to players to use their own judgment to adjust their games to account for that.
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truegrit

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #55 on: 23 November 2011, 11:32:22 »
Needless to say, I'm hoping that ________ does exactly the same thing as BV, only being simpler to calculate. Things like terrain and player skill are outside the points system, and it's up to players to use their own judgment to adjust their games to account for that.

It sounds like that's what Herb wants as well. It sounded to me like it wasn't a question of accuracy, but more of precision. BV2 is just tricky to pull off without errors in the calculations.

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #56 on: 23 November 2011, 12:16:41 »
Hello,

Roughly correct. At present, I would consider it better to approximate balance "close enough", rather than try and claim a precise balance down to the decimal point. People would only "game" any system we create anyway, and I figure--much as we did with the RPG--that we should stop writing rules designed to thwart the munchkins and rules lawyers and work more toward keeping things fun.

Thank you,

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #57 on: 23 November 2011, 12:32:49 »
Actually: they are supposed to make the game even. The problem is: If I were to Mirror Match one of my newer players,
chances are that, unless I deliberately made mistakes, I would win. For it to be a fair fight, I would have to take a
different 'mech..say, I have a player running an Atlas, I would have to, to be fair, run a Vindicator just so he would
have a chance...note: that is a Vindicator with the same skill level as his Atlas, likely on an open map.

That's why I brought up handicapping. If you're so much better than another player that you routinely beat them in a notionally balanced setup and find that not enough of a challenge to be satisfying, try it with an appropriately weaker force -- ideally, a good rating system would help you get a rough idea just how much weaker to serve as a starting point, too.

If you really wanted a system that took player skill out of the equation as well, though, I'd have a simple solution to offer: Put away your dice, maps, and miniatures and simply flip a coin to decide who wins. There, that should do it. :)

Weirdo

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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #58 on: 23 November 2011, 12:37:58 »
Herb, you think exactly like I do on this subject. This is both reassuring and terrifying.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #59 on: 23 November 2011, 14:26:12 »
Do you feel like the warp is overtaking you?
Hearing any dark evil chants, aside from the regular ones, in your brain?
Kerensky: Ahh! After 300 years I'm free! It's time to conquer Terra!

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--Intercepted transmissions from children's programming on Terra 3057