Register Register

Author Topic: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011  (Read 13386 times)

ColBosch

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8353
  • Legends Never Die
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #60 on: 23 November 2011, 14:48:24 »
Roughly correct. At present, I would consider it better to approximate balance "close enough", rather than try and claim a precise balance down to the decimal point. People would only "game" any system we create anyway, and I figure--much as we did with the RPG--that we should stop writing rules designed to thwart the munchkins and rules lawyers and work more toward keeping things fun.

Well said, Herb. I would suggest that a separate document be worked up for the Demo Team Agents to help them design balanced scenarios for actual tournaments, but for the rest of us, "close enough" is good enough.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
1st and 2nd Succession Wars are not happy times. - klarg1
Check my Ogre Flickr page! https://flic.kr/s/aHsmcLnb7v and https://flic.kr/s/aHsksV83ZP

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10007
  • H͕̖̮̱͎͓̏ͤ̀ͅĒ̝̻̩͎̗L̳͕̼̥͈̝ͮP̪ͩ̓
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #61 on: 23 November 2011, 15:41:12 »
Suddenly I think of the idea of using something similar to the planetary tech ratings.  A-F grades on firepower, armor, mobility, and special gear, maybe.  It's going to be relatively vague and not "my mech is 135.2 points more than yours" and would certainly count as "close enough" - maybe per weight.  Maybe make it purely on tonnage...

Weapons as a percentage of 'Mech weight: <10%=F, 10-20=D, 20-35=C, 35-50=B, 50%+=A
Armor as a percentage of max value: <50%=F, 50-60=D, 60-75=C, 75-90=B, 90%+=A
Speed as a percentage of the max MP for its weight and engine, +1 level for jump jets: <50%=F, 50-60=D, 60-75=C, 75-90=B, 90%+=A
Special is ECM, Probe, C3, Narc, TAG, and similar: no gear is F, one piece of equipment is D, 2 is C, 3 is B, 4+ is A

Soooo...to pick a random 'Mech, the OSP-26.  Weapons, not counting CASE or the jump jets, comes to exactly 50% by mass.  Armor, 176/185=95% or so.  Speed, 4/7=~.58, so D, though +1 for jump jets.  The Probe gives it one point in special.  That gives you a final rating for an A/A/C/D machine, a good line 'Mech with moderate mobility and a little bit of EW capability.  Now the above is fully off the top of my head, I just thought of it when I saw the comment of vague ratings and remembered the planetary codes - so why not something similar?  It's certainly a lot easier to calculate than trying to figure BV...
M͍̱͌ ̲̈Ȇ̺̹̳̰̙ͨ͒͛͗̆ ̔̅ͥ͗̿ͬ́R͎ͩ̎̃ͬͫ ͉͔͎̼̩̃̾̓ͣR̙͙̰͙͋ ̤̼͔̠̬̹̐̒̏Ỷ̼͇̝̮͋ͣ ̪̃͛ ̺͖̉ ͕̪̳͂̈́͐͛C̫̮̙̝̮͇̘̑ ̜̑ͥͬͯ̅̋̈H̟̺͋̑̏ ͨ͋̓ͤͤͩR̲̙̬͙͚ͦ̒ ͖̠͈̩̜̔̊̀͐̎ͅͅỈ̫͈͚̠̻̭̼̒͗ͫ ̥̳̼̫ͯ̎ͥ̒ͬ̂͊S̝ͭ̑͋ ̃T̰̥͉̱̏ͮ̔͆ ̬M̫̝͂ͭ̀̒ͭ̇ ͙̩̊̂Ǎ̋ ͉̳̎ͮS̤ͦ̾ͦ̿

majesticmoose

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 487
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #62 on: 23 November 2011, 16:02:32 »
Suddenly I think of the idea of using something similar to the planetary tech ratings.  A-F grades on firepower, armor, mobility, and special gear, maybe.  It's going to be relatively vague and not "my mech is 135.2 points more than yours" and would certainly count as "close enough" - maybe per weight.  Maybe make it purely on tonnage...

Weapons as a percentage of 'Mech weight: <10%=F, 10-20=D, 20-35=C, 35-50=B, 50%+=A
Armor as a percentage of max value: <50%=F, 50-60=D, 60-75=C, 75-90=B, 90%+=A
Speed as a percentage of the max MP for its weight and engine, +1 level for jump jets: <50%=F, 50-60=D, 60-75=C, 75-90=B, 90%+=A
Special is ECM, Probe, C3, Narc, TAG, and similar: no gear is F, one piece of equipment is D, 2 is C, 3 is B, 4+ is A

Soooo...to pick a random 'Mech, the OSP-26.  Weapons, not counting CASE or the jump jets, comes to exactly 50% by mass.  Armor, 176/185=95% or so.  Speed, 4/7=~.58, so D, though +1 for jump jets.  The Probe gives it one point in special.  That gives you a final rating for an A/A/C/D machine, a good line 'Mech with moderate mobility and a little bit of EW capability.  Now the above is fully off the top of my head, I just thought of it when I saw the comment of vague ratings and remembered the planetary codes - so why not something similar?  It's certainly a lot easier to calculate than trying to figure BV...

I was thinking something similar.  the rankings could occupy various percentages.  The actual calculations for the values could be simple as above or complex like BV2, but then the final numbers are abstracted to something comparable, but not trying to pretend to be exact.  Plus, this allows for some designer fudging.  If a mech is a pelse TC beast, the devs can up the value of it beyond the raw numbers.

Unit's like the Wraith become very powerful in this example: MED IS B/A/A/F or so forth, and it clearly shows the basic strengths and weaknesses.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10007
  • H͕̖̮̱͎͓̏ͤ̀ͅĒ̝̻̩͎̗L̳͕̼̥͈̝ͮP̪ͩ̓
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #63 on: 23 November 2011, 16:14:01 »
I just want whatever comes to be simple to calculate; I WANT RECORD SHEETS!
M͍̱͌ ̲̈Ȇ̺̹̳̰̙ͨ͒͛͗̆ ̔̅ͥ͗̿ͬ́R͎ͩ̎̃ͬͫ ͉͔͎̼̩̃̾̓ͣR̙͙̰͙͋ ̤̼͔̠̬̹̐̒̏Ỷ̼͇̝̮͋ͣ ̪̃͛ ̺͖̉ ͕̪̳͂̈́͐͛C̫̮̙̝̮͇̘̑ ̜̑ͥͬͯ̅̋̈H̟̺͋̑̏ ͨ͋̓ͤͤͩR̲̙̬͙͚ͦ̒ ͖̠͈̩̜̔̊̀͐̎ͅͅỈ̫͈͚̠̻̭̼̒͗ͫ ̥̳̼̫ͯ̎ͥ̒ͬ̂͊S̝ͭ̑͋ ̃T̰̥͉̱̏ͮ̔͆ ̬M̫̝͂ͭ̀̒ͭ̇ ͙̩̊̂Ǎ̋ ͉̳̎ͮS̤ͦ̾ͦ̿

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #64 on: 23 November 2011, 16:34:55 »
I just want whatever comes to be simple to calculate; I WANT RECORD SHEETS!

Four letter ratings for one numerical value doesn't seem to lean too much on the simple side. I'd certainly hoping that replacing BV would result in a system with a similar single numerical value.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10007
  • H͕̖̮̱͎͓̏ͤ̀ͅĒ̝̻̩͎̗L̳͕̼̥͈̝ͮP̪ͩ̓
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #65 on: 23 November 2011, 16:41:32 »
Four letter ratings for one numerical value doesn't seem to lean too much on the simple side. I'd certainly hoping that replacing BV would result in a system with a similar single numerical value.
Compare my calculation for figuring out BV, by hand.  MP/max MP, +1 if it has JJs.  Armor/max armor value.  Weapons tonnage/total tonnage.  Does it have special gear.  Versus cube roots and whatnot...yeah I'd say mine's simpler.
M͍̱͌ ̲̈Ȇ̺̹̳̰̙ͨ͒͛͗̆ ̔̅ͥ͗̿ͬ́R͎ͩ̎̃ͬͫ ͉͔͎̼̩̃̾̓ͣR̙͙̰͙͋ ̤̼͔̠̬̹̐̒̏Ỷ̼͇̝̮͋ͣ ̪̃͛ ̺͖̉ ͕̪̳͂̈́͐͛C̫̮̙̝̮͇̘̑ ̜̑ͥͬͯ̅̋̈H̟̺͋̑̏ ͨ͋̓ͤͤͩR̲̙̬͙͚ͦ̒ ͖̠͈̩̜̔̊̀͐̎ͅͅỈ̫͈͚̠̻̭̼̒͗ͫ ̥̳̼̫ͯ̎ͥ̒ͬ̂͊S̝ͭ̑͋ ̃T̰̥͉̱̏ͮ̔͆ ̬M̫̝͂ͭ̀̒ͭ̇ ͙̩̊̂Ǎ̋ ͉̳̎ͮS̤ͦ̾ͦ̿

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33137
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #66 on: 23 November 2011, 16:54:44 »
How would you add up units of a force? Say I build a force for a game, and don't care at all what my opponent brings as long as the fight isn't guaranteed to be a one-sided slaughter for either side. Without giving him any clues as to what i'm bringing or how many, what do I tell him? In BV-style systems I can give him a single number for him to build towards, and we know the fight should be interesting and vaguely balanced.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Neufeld

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2539
  • Raven, Lyran, Horse, Capellan, Canopian, Bear
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #67 on: 23 November 2011, 17:14:56 »
Suddenly I think of the idea of using something similar to the planetary tech ratings.  A-F grades on firepower, armor, mobility, and special gear, maybe.  It's going to be relatively vague and not "my mech is 135.2 points more than yours" and would certainly count as "close enough" - maybe per weight.  Maybe make it purely on tonnage...

Weapons as a percentage of 'Mech weight: <10%=F, 10-20=D, 20-35=C, 35-50=B, 50%+=A
Armor as a percentage of max value: <50%=F, 50-60=D, 60-75=C, 75-90=B, 90%+=A
Speed as a percentage of the max MP for its weight and engine, +1 level for jump jets: <50%=F, 50-60=D, 60-75=C, 75-90=B, 90%+=A
Special is ECM, Probe, C3, Narc, TAG, and similar: no gear is F, one piece of equipment is D, 2 is C, 3 is B, 4+ is A

Soooo...to pick a random 'Mech, the OSP-26.  Weapons, not counting CASE or the jump jets, comes to exactly 50% by mass.  Armor, 176/185=95% or so.  Speed, 4/7=~.58, so D, though +1 for jump jets.  The Probe gives it one point in special.  That gives you a final rating for an A/A/C/D machine, a good line 'Mech with moderate mobility and a little bit of EW capability.  Now the above is fully off the top of my head, I just thought of it when I saw the comment of vague ratings and remembered the planetary codes - so why not something similar?  It's certainly a lot easier to calculate than trying to figure BV...

Interesting system, do you mind if I implement it in my mech evaluation program?

"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #68 on: 23 November 2011, 17:15:50 »
Compare my calculation for figuring out BV, by hand.  MP/max MP, +1 if it has JJs.  Armor/max armor value.  Weapons tonnage/total tonnage.  Does it have special gear.  Versus cube roots and whatnot...yeah I'd say mine's simpler.

Figuring out the system? Agreed. Using it? I'm not so sure. Once you have to start averaging those letters together somehow to get a force rating, or have a long list of letter ratings (one for each unit)...it leads to much more complexity than a single group value.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10007
  • H͕̖̮̱͎͓̏ͤ̀ͅĒ̝̻̩͎̗L̳͕̼̥͈̝ͮP̪ͩ̓
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #69 on: 23 November 2011, 19:21:12 »
Fair enough points.  Like I said, it was off the cuff as a random idea more than anything else.  Though now I get the mental image of "you can have this many As, this many Bs," and so on making force generation really weird.

Guess as a simple comparison system it works, but not so much as force generation.
M͍̱͌ ̲̈Ȇ̺̹̳̰̙ͨ͒͛͗̆ ̔̅ͥ͗̿ͬ́R͎ͩ̎̃ͬͫ ͉͔͎̼̩̃̾̓ͣR̙͙̰͙͋ ̤̼͔̠̬̹̐̒̏Ỷ̼͇̝̮͋ͣ ̪̃͛ ̺͖̉ ͕̪̳͂̈́͐͛C̫̮̙̝̮͇̘̑ ̜̑ͥͬͯ̅̋̈H̟̺͋̑̏ ͨ͋̓ͤͤͩR̲̙̬͙͚ͦ̒ ͖̠͈̩̜̔̊̀͐̎ͅͅỈ̫͈͚̠̻̭̼̒͗ͫ ̥̳̼̫ͯ̎ͥ̒ͬ̂͊S̝ͭ̑͋ ̃T̰̥͉̱̏ͮ̔͆ ̬M̫̝͂ͭ̀̒ͭ̇ ͙̩̊̂Ǎ̋ ͉̳̎ͮS̤ͦ̾ͦ̿

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16944
  • Dang it!
Re: BattleChat transcript 20 November 2011
« Reply #70 on: 23 November 2011, 20:25:21 »
I know BV2 isn't perfect, but this is going major migraine. 

Alot of official canon scenarios use BV in some form.  Jihad Hot Spots is where BV1 measured units translated into BV2 by what..Jihad Secrets or JHS:3076?  There whole section where there no bv (aka TRO:3050U) at some point until was fixed later.

I hope this abstract system they're going work on will cover all the units we have in good enough way to make sense for someone using older scenarios and informal games.  Its easy enough put together a pickup game, but scenarios are tougher animal specially when each side maybe company size (or bigger if your ambitious.)  I'm sort of tired of having his train wreck of units with differient unit bvs from completely differient systems.  I hope this new fix works out...

"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

 

Register