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How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?

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Author Topic: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?  (Read 27136 times)

Fatebringer

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #30 on: 09 February 2011, 10:12:04 »
He he he,

On assaults where you already have lots of tonnage and no room, drop the Ferro Fiberous. You can still keep good coverage and that'll eat up some tonnage and give you some crit room. Endo will always save you more tonnage then the Ferro will so drop Ferro first.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #31 on: 09 February 2011, 10:14:40 »
He he he,

On assaults where you already have lots of tonnage and no room, drop the Ferro Fiberous. You can still keep good coverage and that'll eat up some tonnage and give you some crit room. Endo will always save you more tonnage then the Ferro will so drop Ferro first.

For absolute optimization, yes.  However, endo-steel is apparently harder to make than ferro-fibrous is due to the infrastructure required.  Given that, I'd prefer to reserve endo-steel for front-line machines.

In general, I prefer SFE machines, but there are times and places for XLFE second-liners.  It really depends on role.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #32 on: 09 February 2011, 12:49:21 »
Second-line BattleMechs are supposed to be cheap and plentiful, so SFE is a must for Medium 'mechs or heavier.  I am a very large fan of the Stooping Hawk, for instance, and I've designed two SFE OmniMechs for my personal second-line use.  The first was a 75 tonne upgrade of the Grizzly chassis and the second was an Endo-Steel framed Omni version of the Stone Rhino.

For anything in the Light weight class (or even 40 tonnes, like the Viper) an XL engine doesn't bother me much.  As long as they have an all-purpose energy weapon load, its fine.  For instance, the Pack Hunter II is a pretty spiffy second-line light 'mech.
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #33 on: 09 February 2011, 13:17:25 »
Also, we should all keep in mind that every argument here should be completely turned on its head in the case of Steel Viper second line mechs.  :D
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #34 on: 09 February 2011, 13:27:48 »
Well just for this thread I did a little research I found my list of "New" favorite clan mechs.

UrbanMech-IIC
GreatWyrm
Matador
ThunderStallion-1&2
SuperNova-1
Imp-C
StoneRhino-1

Anyone able to figure out what those 8 mech have in common ?
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #35 on: 09 February 2011, 13:38:32 »
Most of those should be SFEs.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #36 on: 09 February 2011, 13:39:26 »
They're also all pretty slow for their size.
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #37 on: 09 February 2011, 13:47:15 »
My answer is going to depend entirely on production, honestly.
If I can produce enough XL engines that my Omni production isnt impeded? Sure, slap them into as many Standard 'Mechs as I have engines.
If I CANT, however, they're getting pulled in favor of keeping the Omni's going. 

No one seems to be having that problem ATM.  Omni production is at a record low with the loss of the homeworlds, so it looks like XL Engines are free to spread to 2nd line units. 

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #38 on: 09 February 2011, 16:39:11 »
It seems to me that the best XL-engine mechs should be treated like 1.5-line mechs, used in front-line formations when omnis are not available, and otherwise given to the best warriors in second-line units. As for the not so good designs with XL engines like Bane and Dasher II, well they should not exist.

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IndyRI

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #39 on: 09 February 2011, 16:41:15 »
It seems to me that the best XL-engine mechs should be treated like 1.5-line mechs, used in front-line formations when omnis are not available, and otherwise given to the best warriors in second-line units. As for the not so good designs with XL engines like Bane 1 and Dasher II, well they should not exist.

Corrected for ya
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Diablo48

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #40 on: 09 February 2011, 16:44:18 »
Corrected for ya

Aff, the 3 in particular is a devastating machine.


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IndyRI

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #41 on: 09 February 2011, 16:45:06 »
The 3 is arguably the most definitive missile boat in the game. And as is typical of a clan missile boat, it can bodyguard for itself.
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Col.Hengist

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #42 on: 10 February 2011, 00:06:36 »
I agree with Mara. Second liners are nearly as good as front line omnis and there are a few I would prefer in their weight range like the highlander IIc to the executioner prime. Yea the Exe has better movement but the highlander puts out way more firepower AND has more armor AND has a sfe. Cheaper and much more survivable. The difference between a 5 movement max and a 6(8) is +1 to hit at the 8. Its not really a big deal.
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #43 on: 11 February 2011, 20:21:55 »
Most of those should be SFEs.

They're also all pretty slow for their size.

Yes, they are all SFE.
And while the 1st 2 are slow, I'm not sure you can reliably get any of the others to go "much" faster.

That said, the full answer is they all use SFE, SIS, & SArmor, making them very easy to produce w/o anything advanced on them outside the Weapons, DHS, & Clan CASE.

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idea weenie

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #44 on: 12 February 2011, 16:46:28 »
Trick is to use ballistics. Gauss Rifles and Class 10 A/Cs don't take that many crits, but they will eat up the tonnage. The range is OK and the damage solid. You only run out of crits if you need a lot of heat sinks.

The other fun is if you use ballistics, and later swap a SFE for an XL engine, you can use a few of the tons freed up for extra ammo.  Turn a regular Mech into a long-range sniper/LRM support Mech.

A comparison of XL engines vs E-S or FF armor:
SIS -> ES: you free up 5% of the Mech's tonnage (SIS = 10%, E-S = 5%)
SArmor -> F-F: free up 3-4% of the Mech's tonnage (A 100 tonner Mech uses 19.5 tons of regular armor, or 16.25 tons of F-F; 3 tons/100 = 3%)
SFE -> XL engine: Using the original Locust as an example.  It mounts a 160 rated engine to be a 8/12 20 ton Mech.  That engine masses 6 tons.  An XL version masses 3 tons, so you are freeing up 15% of the mech's tonnage.

Out of the three options, an XL engine provides the best benefit.  I'd expect to see the Clans using SFE Mechs while the factories are running, refitting to produce XL engines as they get the chance.  E-S might be incorporated later, but designed for their Omni chassis.  Existing manufacuring centers would make the E-S, and it would be shipped to the Inner Sphere.  The Ghost Bears have an advantage here, as their infrastructure is in the IS already.

So my answer is: use SFE Mechs with Clan tech where possible, changing to XL engines as the Mechs come up for refit and XL engines are available.  Ferro-fibrous armor might be used as it is a simple fix, but provides the least benefit out of the three.

To give an idea of the sheer advantage, let's look at the original Locust:
Swapping regular armor for CF-F, I can mount 3.5 tons of CF-F, get 67 pts of protection (more than the current 64).  Savings = 2.5%
Swapping SIS for E-S, I only need 1 ton instead of 2.  Savings = 5%
Swapping an XL engine for SFE: Either saving 3 tons as above, or increasing the speed to 11/17 (a 220 XL engine is 5 tons, but I need 1 more ton for Gyro).

Another area to look into savings would be swapping regular Machine Guns for their Clan equivalent (half the weight of an IS MG).

Assuming I just use a XL engine, that regular Locust turns into something packing 4 ML, 4 Clan MG, and half a ton of MG ammo. Removing a single ML allows mounting 4 more MG if you want.  You only get 12.5 turns of fire from the MG, but whoever is that close is not going to be happy.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #45 on: 13 February 2011, 23:48:05 »
There's two ways to look at it I think.  From a design stand point, I'd probably put XLs in most of my standard, non-omni, 'second line' mechs.  I like the Clan XL a lot, and I think its worth it from a design stant point.  I tend to like the IS XL, too, though.

But, from the stand point of what 'second line' means to me, I'd pick SFEs, and I did for the poll.  For a Clanner, second line is second class.  Its not important to give them good mechs.  Its only of secondary importance to actualy give them mechs at all.  So of course wasting energy on an XL is not worth it.  Yes, I'd like to see well designed SFE mechs there, but its not critical, so long as I can keep the same number of omnis or more in my main line units. 

The nice up side there is durability.  An SFE mech can survive more and longer, and even in a losing battle you can often cobble your force back together.  The last thing you want is to have to replace your second liners all the time; save that for the front liners.  (Though granted Clan second line warriors tend to fight more savagely, since they personaly have nothing to lose, so cheap to rebuild and replace mechs are even more of a must).

The idea of super-seconds has always been hard to understand for me, though I try.  Some mechs are legitamately better than front line counterparts.  If it can be done on the cheap, why not.  But if for that same cost you could have a front liner, then have it.  Or just assign the super-second to the front line (which I'm pretty ok with in some instances).
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #46 on: 14 February 2011, 00:12:08 »
The idea of super-seconds has always been hard to understand for me, though I try.  Some mechs are legitamately better than front line counterparts.  If it can be done on the cheap, why not.  But if for that same cost you could have a front liner, then have it.  Or just assign the super-second to the front line (which I'm pretty ok with in some instances).

I think the human factor is present here, namely Clan bigotry. I get the impression that the mindset of many Clan Warriors is that the omnimech is king, end of discussion, and that's as much about arbitrary prestige as it is any rational reasoning. An omnimech is a status symbol. The one-on-one Trial of Grievance/Refusal custom may come into play too, with Warriors liking the flexibility and unpredictability an omnimech can give them here. Sure a Rifleman IIC might kick ass but it's always going to be the same thing. As I say a lot, military logic and common sense often play second fiddle to Clan notions of honor and prestige.



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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #47 on: 14 February 2011, 07:43:28 »
The nice up side there is durability.  An SFE mech can survive more and longer, and even in a losing battle you can often cobble your force back together.  The last thing you want is to have to replace your second liners all the time; save that for the front liners.  (Though granted Clan second line warriors tend to fight more savagely, since they personaly have nothing to lose, so cheap to rebuild and replace mechs are even more of a must).

I'd argue that XL engines will allow for more durability.  Based on the Locust example, you'll be freeing up 15% of the Mech's tonnage.  That is the highest benefit compared to E-S or F-F.  The additional tonnage can be used for additional armor, sensors, jammers, ammo, heat sinks, and/or weapons.  They don't need to survive longer, if the enemy is dead faster.  The Locust can quadruple its ranged firepower by switching to an XL engine.

It also allows for easier repairs for the front-line units.  Instead of having to search for an XL engine from the supply center, they perform a Trial for the XL engine in a second-line Mech.  By using the same engines in your second-line units as your main units, this makes it easier to keep your main forces operating.  Essentially, I'd treat the second-line forces as a mobile, self-defending supply depot.  Whatever is put in the secod-line Mech should be selected from a list of what will benefit a front-line Mech, not other considerations.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #48 on: 14 February 2011, 08:38:34 »
I think the human factor is present here, namely Clan bigotry. I get the impression that the mindset of many Clan Warriors is that the omnimech is king, end of discussion, and that's as much about arbitrary prestige as it is any rational reasoning. An omnimech is a status symbol. The one-on-one Trial of Grievance/Refusal custom may come into play too, with Warriors liking the flexibility and unpredictability an omnimech can give them here. Sure a Rifleman IIC might kick ass but it's always going to be the same thing. As I say a lot, military logic and common sense often play second fiddle to Clan notions of honor and prestige.
Recall too that secondline mechs are driven by secondline warriors.  That Rifleman IIC doesn't look as good in the hands of a green pilot going up against a veteran in Stormcrow.  I've always figured on that being a major reason for the pulses on second liners.  The designers are building in a compensation for the relatively unskilled pilots.
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Col.Hengist

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #49 on: 14 February 2011, 11:05:36 »
then put those second line mechs with the pulses in the hands of some of the best clan warriors, clan Bloodspirit and see what happens. Id rather have a second line mech with a sfe engine piloted by a spirit than any other standard pilot from any clan in their omni.
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #50 on: 14 February 2011, 22:28:48 »
then put those second line mechs with the pulses in the hands of some of the best clan warriors, clan Bloodspirit and see what happens. Id rather have a second line mech with a sfe engine piloted by a spirit than any other standard pilot from any clan in their omni.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #51 on: 14 February 2011, 22:55:09 »
I’m against XL Engines on principal. However, in universe, I think it would make sense for Second Line units to use them. Their lives are not as worthy as front line, so if they can draw some advantage from their genetic or temporal defects, then all power to them!
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #52 on: 14 February 2011, 23:09:25 »
Ever looked at our Front Line RAT? Notice the sheer proportion of so-called "Second Line" 'mechs there?

 Sure have,its exactly what I was getting at  ;D
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Diablo48

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #53 on: 14 February 2011, 23:23:38 »
I’m against XL Engines on principal.

Why?  The Clan XLE is one of the greatest pieces of equipment in the game with tremendous weight savings for a minimal increase in vulnerability.  It is a little bit pricey, but considering the apparent ease with which the Clans can mass produce them I think that is more of an IS issue.


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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #54 on: 14 February 2011, 23:31:32 »
Why?  The Clan XLE is one of the greatest pieces of equipment in the game with tremendous weight savings for a minimal increase in vulnerability.  It is a little bit pricey, but considering the apparent ease with which the Clans can mass produce them I think that is more of an IS issue.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my soldiers to be eternal. Also, I play Clan Smoke Jaguar, which means my 'Mechs usually end up with virtually no torso armour left. When you play that aggressively, that minimal vulnerability is amplified tenfold.
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Diablo48

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #55 on: 15 February 2011, 01:39:36 »
Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my soldiers to be eternal. Also, I play Clan Smoke Jaguar, which means my 'Mechs usually end up with virtually no torso armour left. When you play that aggressively, that minimal vulnerability is amplified tenfold.

The thing is, I would rather have the drastically improved speed, armor, or firepower than a little extra engine durability.  After all, that  engine vulnerability will not be a problem if you cut them down before they can chew through your armor.


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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #56 on: 15 February 2011, 01:44:25 »
The thing is, I would rather have the drastically improved speed, armor, or firepower than a little extra engine durability.  After all, that  engine vulnerability will not be a problem if you cut them down before they can chew through your armor.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #57 on: 15 February 2011, 09:20:57 »
I think there's a place for both XLEs and SFEs in Clan doctrine, but I'm siding with Diablo on this one, Guardsman. It would take having both side torsos destroyed, critical hits aside, to kill an Clan mech with an XLE, and the amount of extra armor, weapons, speed, equipment you can mount for the weight savings will be worthwhile the majority of the time. There are a few designs which make the most of the cheaper SFE, and the extra zombie factor certainly doesn't suck, but it's hard to justify something that much heavier when the difference is relatively minute.
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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #58 on: 15 February 2011, 10:35:57 »
As noted before, role determines it for me.  An XLFE used well is not something I have issues justifying.  But for a lot of slower 'Mechs, a thoughtful employment of Clan technology can make an SFE 'Mech quite competitive and free up manufacturing resources for other uses.

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Re: How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?
« Reply #59 on: 15 February 2011, 12:14:34 »
As noted before, role determines it for me.  An XLFE used well is not something I have issues justifying.  But for a lot of slower 'Mechs, a thoughtful employment of Clan technology can make an SFE 'Mech quite competitive and free up manufacturing resources for other uses.

One of the reasons I love my Grizzly. 4/6/4 with good armor and weapons for all seasons. The SFE is just icing on the cake at that point.
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