Author Topic: Hatamoto-Chi: Japanese Meaning Of Name? (Read 10461 times)

VF1LAM · « **on:** 03 January 2012, 21:43:14 »

I would like to ask a question of anyone who may know the answer.

Specifically, I would like to know the Japanese meaning of the BattleMech name "Hatamoto-Chi", which was created by the Draconis Combine as a powerful samurai-themed 'Mech.

I don't know very much Japanese, except maybe some words related to sushi...

jklantern · « **Reply #1 on:** 03 January 2012, 21:54:12 »

Well, a Hatamoto would be a retainer to a daimyo. I'm no expert in Japanese by any means, but basically, you can extremely loosely translate that to "Knight." As for the other designations of the Hatamoto series, you're gonna need someone better qualified than me.

Caesar Steiner for Archon · « **Reply #2 on:** 03 January 2012, 21:57:56 »

Only 3 years of study, but I believe -chi, -mizo and -kaze are earth, water and wind in this context. No kanji, though, so it's unlikely but it could mean other stuff.

jklantern · « **Reply #3 on:** 03 January 2012, 22:01:21 »

Where's Hikagemaru? He's pretty fluent in Japanese, right? In addition to making awesome faction banners, turning water into booze, and being able to shoot lasers from his eyes that transform evil into bacon.

Sigma · « **Reply #4 on:** 03 January 2012, 22:04:00 »

Hatamoto is an era-specific term for a type of samurai (Tokugawa regime? says google). Chi is the the variant name.

My Japanese is almost nonexistent but it should go something like.

Hatamoto Chi - Samurai Rock or Tough Samurai

Hatamoto Kaze - Samurai Wind or the Evasive Samurai or Far Reaching Samurai.

Hatamoto Ku - Samurai Air or the Heavenly Samurai

Hatamoto Mizu - Samurai Water or the Adaptable Samurai

Hatamoto Hi - Samurai Fire

Hatamoto Kaeru - Samurai Frog (The underwater equipment makes the meaning obvious)

And folks with some real japanese skills feel free to step in and call me a dumbass.

When you combine them all you get Captain Planet.

Jal Phoenix · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 January 2012, 22:07:22 »

Quote from: Sigma on 03 January 2012, 22:04:00

When you combine them all you get Captain Planet.

Wrong. These are machines, so you get Hatamoto Shin

jklantern · « **Reply #6 on:** 03 January 2012, 22:09:28 »

Quote from: Sigma on 03 January 2012, 22:04:00

Hatamoto is an era-specific term for a type of samurai (Tokugawa regime? says google). Chi is the the variant name.

My Japanese is almost nonexistent but it should go something like.

Hatamoto Chi - Samurai Rock or Tough Samurai

Hatamoto Kaze - Samurai Wind or the Evasive Samurai or Far Reaching Samurai.

Hatamoto Ku - Samurai Air or the Heavenly Samurai

Hatamoto Mizu - Samurai Water or the Adaptable Samurai

Hatamoto Hi - Samurai Fire

Hatamoto Kaeru - Samurai Frog (The underwater equipment makes the meaning obvious)

And folks with some real japanese skills feel free to step in and call me a dumbass.

When you combine them all you get Captain Planet.

Tokugawa Shogunate is about right, since Shogun is where I've seen the term used, and it's loosely based upon the dawn of Tokugawa Ieyasu's reign as the Shogun.

Zombyra · « **Reply #7 on:** 03 January 2012, 23:43:11 »

Quote from: Sigma on 03 January 2012, 22:04:00

When you combine them all you get Captain Planet.

I just wanted you to know, I almost died.

(of laughter obviously)
[cheers]

Shi_no_Kami · « **Reply #8 on:** 04 January 2012, 01:51:37 »

Quote from: jklantern on 03 January 2012, 21:54:12

Well, a Hatamoto would be a retainer to a daimyo. I'm no expert in Japanese by any means, but basically, you can extremely loosely translate that to "Knight." As for the other designations of the Hatamoto series, you're gonna need someone better qualified than me.

I think I can add a bit to the discussion. First is that "Knight" is translated to "Kishi" / 騎士 in Japanese... and then moving on.

Modern reading would be: shogunal vassal, direct retainer of a shogun.
Hatamoto literally means 'under the banner', and it therefore either "banner man" or "banner bearer" would be a better translation. The term comes from the Sengoku Jidai (The Era of a Thousand Warring States, literally - era of 1000 countries), and over time the Hatamoto gradly became more and more important vassals.

If you want more info: honestly use Wikipedia, it has a very good article. Or use Jim Breen's Japanese Dictionary.

MadCapellan · « **Reply #9 on:** 04 January 2012, 08:39:26 »

My understanding is that a Hatamoto is a samurai of the warlord's personal retinue, roughly equivalent to a Western royal knight companion, a royal guard so to speak.

Zombyra · « **Reply #10 on:** 04 January 2012, 11:07:01 »

So, assuming it's not meant to be a direct translation, but rather a metaphorical sentiment, would "Standard Brearer" be a faithful construction of "hatamoto"?

Ghostbear_Gurdel · « **Reply #11 on:** 04 January 2012, 12:14:41 »

Isn't that what the TRO says? The mech is named for the 'banner' like array on the back?

ShadowRaven · « **Reply #12 on:** 04 January 2012, 14:07:12 »

A Hatamoto is essentially a term for the flag bearer. Meaning the individual who carried a leaders flag in battle. Who would also be said leaders adviser, companion, and last line of defense. It would be a position of great honor. However, many other samurai would also go into battle with flags on their back, either bearing a personal crest or that of their family or the family of their lord. Or even had non samurai retainers follow them around with the flag just to say "here I am" They could realistically be called 'hatamoto' as well, but to the best of my knowledge weren't. With that title being reserved for the general or daimyo's personal banner man in all the sources I've read.

Quote from: Zombyra on 04 January 2012, 11:07:01

So, assuming it's not meant to be a direct translation, but rather a metaphorical sentiment, would "Standard Brearer" be a faithful construction of "hatamoto"?

exactly so

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #13 on:** 04 January 2012, 14:58:57 »

Quote from: Ghostbear_Gurdel on 04 January 2012, 12:14:41

Isn't that what the TRO says? The mech is named for the 'banner' like array on the back?

You're thinking of the Nobori-nin from 3058, which states that the mech was given name because of the finlike projection on its back reminded a Draconis intelligence officer of the banners feudal samurai sometimes wore.

roosterboy · « **Reply #14 on:** 04 January 2012, 15:06:12 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 January 2012, 14:58:57

You're thinking of the Nobori-nin from 3058, which states that the mech was given name because of the finlike projection on its back reminded a Draconis intelligence officer of the banners feudal samurai sometimes wore.

No, he's right; the writeup for the Hatamoto does say something similar. I don't have the text in front of me to quote it exactly but it mentions that something on the 'Mech resembles a samurai's banner, which gives the design its name.

monty · « **Reply #15 on:** 04 January 2012, 15:25:59 »

It doesn't mention this in TRO3039 but TRO3050 says "The most obvious distinguishing characteristic of this class are the radiator fins mounted on the centre rear torso & head. The rear fin resembling an ancient samurai's sashimono (back banner) is what gives the battlemech its name."

The Nobori-Nin is also named for a resemblance between the single finlike projection on its back & the banners worn by ancient samurai.

VF1LAM · « **Reply #16 on:** 07 January 2012, 11:47:33 »

Thank you to everyone who has so far responded to this thread. O0

I would like to say that I like the Hatamoto-Chi and all its interesting variants, including the underwater version...

The only Japanese words I know are some phrases that might be useful in a sushi restaurant.

I also happen to frequent a sushi/hibachi restaurant called Kabuto, which shares the same name as a certain 'Mech... ::)

roosterboy · « **Reply #17 on:** 07 January 2012, 16:08:02 »

Quote from: VF1LAM on 07 January 2012, 11:47:33

I also happen to frequent a sushi/hibachi restaurant called Kabuto, which shares the same name as a certain 'Mech... ::)

Here in Los Angeles, there used to be a sushi place called Azami Sushi that always makes me chuckle when I pass by.

There used to be a restaurant near me called Toyama, which I could never get up the courage to try.

Stahlseele · « **Reply #18 on:** 07 January 2012, 16:39:31 »

Daishi = Big Death.
Koshi = Little (girl) Death.

verybad · « **Reply #19 on:** 07 January 2012, 16:57:27 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatamoto
Google

PhoeniX0302 · « **Reply #20 on:** 07 January 2012, 17:07:18 »

Hey,

as a university lecturer for Japanese studies, I just wanted to add some details on the hatamoto.
You were all completely right in stating that they were flag bearers and in most cases very important persons to a daimyo or shogun.
They acted mostly as advisers or very trustfull guards, which received substantially less koku (the old currency based on rice) and land compared to equal influential persons.
In medieval times, a term was used for the the most influential person in the society, called the "80.000 hatamoto", which combined low-ranking gokenin and hatamoto. In the Edo period, the hatamoto became part of the vast bakufu (the government and beaucracy of the shougante) apparatus. Due to their special position, they were not required to conduct sankin koutai, which required daimyo and others to come to Edo very often (and leaving there family members as hostages).

With bakumatsu (the end of the shogunate), the hatamoto lost their influence and their privileges.

edit: Okay, pointing to Google is also helpful.....;)