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Author Topic: MOTW - Dire Wolf  (Read 14691 times)

Diplominator

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #30 on: 11 March 2012, 15:36:13 »
No, that's true. An unpodded Savage Coyote is something like seven million C-Bills less than an unpodded Dire Wolf. Hopefully 3067 Unabridged comes with some goodies in that regard, although I can't see any IS Clans using it except maybe the Wolves.  To be fair, though, I'd still prefer an IJJ Dire Wolf. The Savage Coyote only has 3.5 more tons to play with (the extra heat sink on the Dire Wolf totally counts because good IJJ designs tend to be energy-heavy), and the Dire Wolf can take a full salvo from a Hellstar and still have more armor than the Savage Coyote.

That does point out an oft-overlooked characteristic of the Dire Wolf, actually. Most people focus on the firepower, since there's a lot of it, but unlike a lot of Omnis it doesn't compromise firepower to do it. It has near-maximum armor, arranged fairly intelligently.

rlbell

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #31 on: 11 March 2012, 15:50:12 »
The problem some Clan players have with the Dire Wolf can be summed up in a simple phrase:

It feels like a Spheroid assault, not a Clan assault.



The problem is that the payload of a 4/6 assault goes down when you go from 95t to 100t. 
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jymset

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #32 on: 11 March 2012, 16:06:39 »
That does point out an oft-overlooked characteristic of the Dire Wolf, actually. Most people focus on the firepower, since there's a lot of it, but unlike a lot of Omnis it doesn't compromise firepower to do it. It has near-maximum armor, arranged fairly intelligently.

True, just like on the Atlas. This goes back to points made earlier in the thread: in terms of mobility and armour, the Atlas and Dire Wolf are identical. Offensively, the Dire Wolf is... offensive.

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E. Icaza

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #33 on: 11 March 2012, 19:02:02 »
I've never cared for it and usually leave it alone in favor of a Warhawk or a Gargoyle, since I'd like to actually make it to the battlefield before the fight is over.  That said, my favored configuration is the maligned Beta configuration when I have to take one of them. 
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Neufeld

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #34 on: 12 March 2012, 05:47:39 »
Some data on the Dire Wolf.

Here is how the average damage at full alpha varies over range (note that heat is not considered, so ...):
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV    D3  D6  D9 D12 D15 D18 D21 D24
Daishi U                       100 3360 106 106 106  58  30  30  30   0
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041  97  97  92  92  64  50  30   0
Daishi D                       100 3403  92  92  76  76  50  41  41  41
Daishi Prime                   100 2712  88  88  88  88  60  60  60  40
Daishi C                       100 3610  87  87  77  68  39  39  39   9
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900  86  86  86  78  50  50  20  20
Daishi W                       100 2951  85  85  80  80  37  37  37  10
Daishi S                       100 2985  85  81  81  81  10  10   0   0
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048  77  77  72  72  60  60  30   0
Daishi X                       100 2645  74  75  70  49  45  45  21   9
Daishi H                       100 2992  71  69  69  69  62  30  30   0
Daishi B                       100 2609  70  70  65  65  51  51  41  11
Daishi A                       100 2855  69  69  69  69  45  45  15   0
Also, the U uses SRT, so its values are not accurate for neither land nor water.

Second, here is a more detailed breakdown of damage capacity at range 18:
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Wpns/turns of fire
Daishi Prime                   100 2712  60 56/44 3   lrm10:1/12 uac5:2/20 erll:4
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048  60 46/46 3   erppc:1 lpl:3 gr:1/16
Daishi B                       100 2609  51 40/30 3   erppc:2 uac2:4/22 lb10:1/20
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900  50 54/46 3   lpl:3 erll:2
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041  50 50/50 3   erppc:2 lpl:2
Daishi X                       100 2645  45 26/30 3   uac10:1/20 lrm15:1/8 atm6:1/30 lpl:1 lb5:1/40
Daishi A                       100 2855  45 31/42 3   lpl:3 gr:1/24
Daishi D                       100 3403  41 16/30 3   hag40:2/15
Daishi C                       100 3610  39 38/46 3j  erppc:2 atm6:2/10
Daishi W                       100 2951  37 19/40 3   lrm20:1/12 gr:1/32 erll:1
Daishi H                       100 2992  30 2/40  3   gr:2/16
Daishi U                       100 3360  30 30/32 3j  erppc:2
Daishi S                       100 2985  10 10/40 3j  lpl:1

The Hohiro config stands out here, being tied for first place, and heat-neutral when standing still.

Same thing at range 6:
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Wpns/turns of fire
Daishi U                       100 3360 106 70/32 3j  erppc:2 mpl:4 srt6:6/10
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041  97 76/50 3   erppc:2 lpl:2 erml:2 ersl:1 uac20:1/10
Daishi D                       100 3403  92 28/30 3   ssrm6:1/15 mpl:2 ersl:1 hag40:2/15
Daishi Prime                   100 2712  88 72/44 3   lrm10:1/12 mpl:4 uac5:2/20 erll:4
Daishi C                       100 3610  87 54/46 3j  ssrm4os:1 erppc:2 mpl:4 atm6:2/10
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900  86 72/46 3   lpl:3 srm6:1/15 erll:2 uac20:1/10
Daishi W                       100 2951  85 43/40 3   lrm20:1/12 mpl:2 ersl:1 gr:1/32 erll:1 uac20:1/10
Daishi S                       100 2985  81 39/40 3j  ssrm4:2/12 lb20:1/20 mpl:5 lpl:1
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048  77 50/46 3   ssrm6:1/15 erppc:1 lpl:3 ersl:1 gr:1/16
Daishi X                       100 2645  75 37/30 3   uac10:1/20 ssrm2:1/50 lrm15:1/8 atm6:1/30 lpl:1 hml:1 srm4:1/25 lb5:1/40
Daishi B                       100 2609  70 50/30 3   erppc:2 mpl:2 uac2:4/22 ersl:1 lb10:1/20
Daishi A                       100 2855  69 35/42 3   ssrm6:2/15 lpl:3 gr:1/24
Daishi H                       100 2992  69 42/40 3   mpl:1 gr:2/16 hll:2

This table shows how scary the D is. While the Widowmaker config has higher potential damage, the D is heat neutral. (and the U does not count.)

Finally, number of headcappers:
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV   Cap Mov Armr TC Weapons/turns of fire
Daishi H                       100 2992   4 3    99% X  gr:2/16 hll:2
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041   3 3    99%    erppc:2 uac20:1/10
Daishi B                       100 2609   2 3    99%    erppc:2
Daishi C                       100 3610   2 3j   99% X  erppc:2
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048   2 3    99%    erppc:1 gr:1/16
Daishi U                       100 3360   2 3j   99% X  erppc:2
Daishi W                       100 2951   2 3    99%    gr:1/32 uac20:1/10
Daishi A                       100 2855   1 3    99%    gr:1/24
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900   1 3    99%    uac20:1/10
Daishi S                       100 2985   1 3j   99%    lb20:1/20

While the H is quite lackluster in overall damage, it has four headcappers and is quite cool running.
« Last Edit: 13 March 2012, 08:07:14 by Neufeld »

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Ian Sharpe

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #35 on: 12 March 2012, 07:20:29 »
The thing that stands out to me about the A isn't the ranged firepower.  It's the endurance, something a 'Mech like a Jupiter or a Bane 3 just doesn't have.  That thing's not going to stop firing for a long, long time unless you beat it to death.

Its not just the endurance, though; against SW tech, its the range and accuracy of the triple LPLs in conjunction with the other weapons.  It can pump out max damage every turn and not care one bit about heat.  At this stage, I consider it undergunned, but for my first game against Clantech it wasn't nice at all.  The Streak 6s were a nasty shock too.  If both hit, forcing a PSR AND having 12 possible crits is not pleasant. 

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #36 on: 12 March 2012, 10:51:22 »
The Hotel Configuration (Authors note: At this point I stopped and wondered how many there were left to do and was dismayed) moves to use paired heavy large lasers and gauss rifles, one per arm.  The rifles are fed by 4 tons of ammo.  Backup weapons consist of an ER Small and a medium pulse.  The heavy larges and gauss rifles are boosted by a massive 7 ton Tarcomp in the right torso.  It can fire the primary battery and run every turn and be heat neutral.  Not seeing any obvious candidates for improvement, maybe adding some more guass ammo via removing the pulse laser.
I can think of a way to improve it (and I'm sure others have thought of it too), drop the HLLs, the MPL, and 3 DHS for a pair of ERPPCs (and a 1 ton, 1crit size increase in the TC). Dual headcappers, no heat issues and a TC.
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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #37 on: 12 March 2012, 11:27:57 »
Better but not a H config anymore.  :D




Iron Mongoose

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #38 on: 12 March 2012, 12:12:37 »
One of the intresting things about some of the 'lesser' Dire Wolves is that their BV is actualy rather reasonable.  It was a lot worse under BV1, when the Prime and B cost less than most Summoners and Timber Wolves, but given what you get there are still some pretty good values out there.  The H, for example, offers four heat neutral head cappers with a TC for under three grand.  Adding PPCs would cost you a squad of high end BA or half a light mech in BV.  The Prime and B still cost about the same as good heavies.  Once BV is done away with, we'll see if Summoners don't become more attractive on a cost basis, but as it is most of the under 3k choices look pretty nice.

More over, we can see looking back on this thread here that the Dire Wolf (and many mechs like it to be fair) to get a lot of disrespect.  "They don't take any skill."  "They're the exclusive choice of munchkins and powergamers and six year olds."  "I wouldn't take a Dire Wolf if it were armed with watter canons and I were on fire." (Well, you get the idea.)  But, when you look at the B, the H, the X, and some of the others depending on your point of view, you're hardly taking a dream mech.  Massed AC2s?  Sky high over heats?  Heavy lasers?  Every difrent sort of missiles?  Yes, they're Dire Wolves, which means they are the best Clan slow assualt omni to have (lots of qualifiers there) but they're hardly muched out min/maxed mechs, which makes them more fun to play and more fun to play against.  And given how many Dire Wolves there are, we can afford some crazy ones.

Unrelated note, the table below leaves out ultra AC double taps (or at least does them inconsistantly, since they seem to be there averaged out for the B but not the Widowmaker, W, or Promethius) and seems to have some of the missile damage calculated wrong, at least if "max possible damage" is the goal, and not 'average' or 'expected' damage.
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Neufeld

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #39 on: 12 March 2012, 13:06:07 »
Unrelated note, the table below leaves out ultra AC double taps (or at least does them inconsistantly, since they seem to be there averaged out for the B but not the Widowmaker, W, or Promethius) and seems to have some of the missile damage calculated wrong, at least if "max possible damage" is the goal, and not 'average' or 'expected' damage.

Strange. It is supposed to be average damage. Maybe there is something wrong in my code?
I get 28.33 average damage for the UAC/20s, 14.17 for UAC/10s, 7.08 for UAC/5s, and 2.83 UAC/2s.
6.31 for LRM-10, 12.69 for LRM-20, 11.5 for LRM-15 with ArtIV.
30.72 for HAG-40 at close range, 14.33 for ATM-6 at close range.

Daishi B:
2x ERPPC = 30
2x MPL = 14
4x UAC/2 = 11
ERSL = 5
LB10 = 10
--> 70

Daishi Prometheus:
3xLPL = 30
SRM6 = 8
2xERLL = 20
UAC/20 = 28
--> 86

Daishi Widowmaker:
2x ERPPC = 30
2x LPL = 20
2x ERML = 14
ERSL = 5
UAC/20 = 28
--> 97

Daishi W:
LRM20 = 12.69
2x MPL = 14
ERSL = 5
GR = 15
ERLL = 10
UAC/20 = 28.33
--> 85

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We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #40 on: 12 March 2012, 16:50:28 »
If you want average expected damage, you're fine.  But if you want:

Here is how the max possible damage varies over range
....

...then you might throw some people (like me)

For most Dire Wolves, I know the weapons by heart, so I can do a rough total quickly, but I don't tend to bother with averages (I never get average rolls, after all) so its harder to check on the fly.
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Neufeld

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #41 on: 13 March 2012, 08:09:16 »
If you want average expected damage, you're fine.  But if you want:

...then you might throw some people (like me)

For most Dire Wolves, I know the weapons by heart, so I can do a rough total quickly, but I don't tend to bother with averages (I never get average rolls, after all) so its harder to check on the fly.

Ah, that explains the issue. I corrected my post.


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We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
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StCptMara

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #42 on: 13 March 2012, 10:54:31 »
Ah, the Dire Wolf...I have a player in my group who took inspiration from the LRM Bane.
But, over all, the thing is a good design. I do not like the PLACEMENT of the 3 out of
engine heat sinks(I would have put 2 in the legs, 1 in a torso, so I could always benefit
from puddle jumping), and am not terribly fond of the weapons being so focused into the
arms. That said..they are a beast of a 'Mech. Only assault 'mech I would choose over a Dire Wolf
would be a Blood Kite.

Personally, I think the reason the Dire Wolf has those 15 fixed sinks, with 3 out of the engine is
the same reason when I am designing something, I will stick a piece of fixed equipment in:
When doing configurations, they probably kept coming up with needing more heat sinks, and
so decided to put the fewest heat sinks they kept putting in into a fixed loadout.

However, I have yet to see someone get a Dire Wolf into a position where, if it was not able to
fight its way out, short of a lucky gauss/Heavy PPC/AC-20 to the head, it wasn't able to leave
whatever it was fighting against HURTING. Even other assaults are going to know they were
in a fight. An Executioner or Gargoyle have a good chance, as does a Warhawk, but they HAVE
to use their superior mobility. This is probably why the Dire Wolf's arms are where most of its
weapons are: the wider fire arcs. As God and Davion pointed out: the Prime has the firepower
of a Marauder in each arm. Of Inner Sphere 'mechs...A Sunder has the best chance, but not many
others in a one-on-one fight...which is a good thing the Inner Sphere does not do one-on-one.
I would still take two assaults against a Dire Wolf, minimum, if I was an Inner Sphere commander,
though.
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Diablo48

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #43 on: 13 March 2012, 13:11:29 »
Ah, the Dire Wolf...I have a player in my group who took inspiration from the LRM Bane.
But, over all, the thing is a good design. I do not like the PLACEMENT of the 3 out of
engine heat sinks(I would have put 2 in the legs, 1 in a torso, so I could always benefit
from puddle jumping), and am not terribly fond of the weapons being so focused into the
arms. That said..they are a beast of a 'Mech. Only assault 'mech I would choose over a Dire Wolf
would be a Blood Kite.

Personally, I think the reason the Dire Wolf has those 15 fixed sinks, with 3 out of the engine is
the same reason when I am designing something, I will stick a piece of fixed equipment in:
When doing configurations, they probably kept coming up with needing more heat sinks, and
so decided to put the fewest heat sinks they kept putting in into a fixed loadout.

I am very much with you on this.  I just looked through my custom configurations, and only 4 of 20 use the base 15 sinks which all have unusual reasons that keep them from having the pod space for more heat.  One of them is a twin Arrow IV platform, one mounts a quartet of LB 2-X ACs, and the other two mount 20 tons of iJJs.  I am not counting the one configuration I filled exclusively with lvl 1 pods to see what would happen because I was considering extra DHS to be banned for that design.

Quote
However, I have yet to see someone get a Dire Wolf into a position where, if it was not able to
fight its way out, short of a lucky gauss/Heavy PPC/AC-20 to the head, it wasn't able to leave
whatever it was fighting against HURTING. Even other assaults are going to know they were
in a fight. An Executioner or Gargoyle have a good chance, as does a Warhawk, but they HAVE
to use their superior mobility. This is probably why the Dire Wolf's arms are where most of its
weapons are: the wider fire arcs. As God and Davion pointed out: the Prime has the firepower
of a Marauder in each arm. Of Inner Sphere 'mechs...A Sunder has the best chance, but not many
others in a one-on-one fight...which is a good thing the Inner Sphere does not do one-on-one.
I would still take two assaults against a Dire Wolf, minimum, if I was an Inner Sphere commander,
though.

Honestly, I can see the Dire Wolf chewing through both of the IS assaults given the right pilots and equipment.


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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #44 on: 13 March 2012, 13:42:05 »
Ah, the Dire Wolf...I have a player in my group who took inspiration from the LRM Bane.
But, over all, the thing is a good design. I do not like the PLACEMENT of the 3 out of
engine heat sinks(I would have put 2 in the legs, 1 in a torso, so I could always benefit
from puddle jumping), and am not terribly fond of the weapons being so focused into the
arms. That said..they are a beast of a 'Mech. Only assault 'mech I would choose over a Dire Wolf
would be a Blood Kite.

Personally, I think the reason the Dire Wolf has those 15 fixed sinks, with 3 out of the engine is
the same reason when I am designing something, I will stick a piece of fixed equipment in:
When doing configurations, they probably kept coming up with needing more heat sinks, and
so decided to put the fewest heat sinks they kept putting in into a fixed loadout.

However, I have yet to see someone get a Dire Wolf into a position where, if it was not able to
fight its way out, short of a lucky gauss/Heavy PPC/AC-20 to the head, it wasn't able to leave
whatever it was fighting against HURTING. Even other assaults are going to know they were
in a fight. An Executioner or Gargoyle have a good chance, as does a Warhawk, but they HAVE
to use their superior mobility. This is probably why the Dire Wolf's arms are where most of its
weapons are: the wider fire arcs. As God and Davion pointed out: the Prime has the firepower
of a Marauder in each arm. Of Inner Sphere 'mechs...A Sunder has the best chance, but not many
others in a one-on-one fight...which is a good thing the Inner Sphere does not do one-on-one.
I would still take two assaults against a Dire Wolf, minimum, if I was an Inner Sphere commander,
though.

A Sunder?  ???  I must be missing something here.
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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #45 on: 13 March 2012, 14:47:46 »
Well, it is the only IS omni with a canon Clan tech veriant, so it might have the best chance to win by that metric.  I'd pick the Raptor as the best to take, but only because it can run away effectively (the Owens is nominaly faster, but its never going to be the best at anything in my mind).

The Dire Wolf's base chassis isn't much better than anything else, IS XL tech asside.  I know players who actualy prefer the SFE Hauptman's base to the Dire Wolf or Turkina or Savage Coyote objectively, one for one.  But, you can fill a Hauptman full of Clan tech weapons if you want on your own time in your own custom situations, Dire Wolves come full of Clan tech right off the lot, and no amount of clever design and good tactics can overcome 50.5 tons of the best sort of guns avalable (assuming there's no bad tactics to deminish it).  You just can't make an IS mech that can do what a Clan tech assualt mech like the Dire Wolf can do.  Clan GRs are better, Clan PPCs are a lot better, Clan lasers are better, Clan ACs are better, Clan missiles are wildly better.  You can pack on more heatsinks, meaning more space and dissapation avalable for the larger amount of lighter, more powerful guns. 

Something like a Hauptman or a Templar might have more thought put into the design.  SFE, or all high tech components, or more speed, or whatever.  Even the celestials with their new engine and gyro types and tricky new weapons can't pull enough tricks out of their tool box to make up for the simple fact of quantity, quantity and more quantity that the ultimate assualt can bring to the table.  There are a few non-omni mechs like the Bain 3, Hellstar, Marauder II Bounty Hunter and a few others that are tweeked for their specific load outs that can compeat for the title of king of assualts with a pretty good shot at winning it, but they're all Clan tech, and none of them can be so many difrent sorts of things on demand.
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StCptMara

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #46 on: 13 March 2012, 21:27:09 »
A Sunder?  ???  I must be missing something here.

Maneuverability. It would be a hard fight, did not say it would be easy, but, one on one, I would,
if forced to take an IS Assault 'mech, prefer to to take a Sunder since the marginal speed boost
will allow me to, assuming I can win initiative, cut off fire arcs, and, in general have tactical control.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #47 on: 14 March 2012, 10:27:38 »
Not a Templar, who's more modern configurations would open up its options?  Or an Avatar, which has a better R veriant, or the Blackhawk KU, which is quicker and can jump into the Dire Wolf's rear arc?
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jymset

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #48 on: 14 March 2012, 11:22:22 »
I'm pretty sure the Sunder is the second time this thread has turned to MechWarrior 3. Back in that game and going with set variants, the Annihilator was obviously a special-case juggernaut. Thus, the Sunder was the absolute top dog for the Inner Sphere and really quite a mean bastich.

So: Daishi B and Sunder ftw! :D
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Beukeboom Fan

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #49 on: 14 March 2012, 12:59:22 »
Maneuverability. It would be a hard fight, did not say it would be easy, but, one on one, I would,
if forced to take an IS Assault 'mech, prefer to to take a Sunder since the marginal speed boost
will allow me to, assuming I can win initiative, cut off fire arcs, and, in general have tactical control.

In a 4/6 mech, how are you going to survive to get close enough to cut off fire arcs or take advantage of cover when you lose initiative?   

Above is with the understanding that the Dire Wolf will probably be about double your BV.  I'd think the "better" alternative as the I/S would be running a Devestator and hoping your get lucky - but that's just my $.02.


Matti

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #50 on: 14 March 2012, 16:48:12 »
Beta configuration is bizzare.  That's all there is to it.  Only mounting the base 30 heat sinks, the left arm mounts two PPCs, 2 pulse lasers of the medium variety, the Right arm mounting an LBX10.  The torso guns are a quad set of UAC2’s in paired sets on the side torsos.  Each pair shares a ton of ammo.  And a superfluous ER Small Laser in the CT.  Its safe to say that the cooling array is lacking, but not terribly so, but man....the heat sink juggling is not fun.  I’m not quite sure what I’d change on here, but that UAC mess needs to go.
Could UAC/2 battery be used to motive crit vehicles at distance? Hover/VTOL recon units should beware... LB 10-X is clearly for crit seeking. Hmm... 4x UAC/2 firing Ultra backed by LB 10-X... I'll try it when (if ever) I play with Dire Wolf.


Quote
Rather than following the idea that assaults should be reasonably fast but still strong enough to break holes open in the enemy lines that the heavy cav designs can exploit, and that warfare should be limited in scope to conserve resources and remain civilized, the Dire Wolf flaunts everything. It is a slow juggernaut of a 'Mech designed to beat down the opposition, plodding forward slowly and laying waste to all in its path. Its style of destruction is glacial, not lightning: grinding forward inevitably, crushing everything in front of it.
And Smoke Jaguars have used it as such. Have you read about Jaguars terrorizing town in their occupation zone with Dire Wolf blasting random buildings?
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

Moonsword

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #51 on: 14 March 2012, 16:55:37 »
You can certainly use an Ultra/2 that way - the Bane does to reasonably good effect - but if you're talking design changes, it's not the best way to go.  LB 2-Xs are going to be more practical for critting things because they can generate the clusters without the perils and annoyances of going Ultra (jams, heat, and ammo expenditure).  And they're more accurate doing it, especially against airborne units.

Diablo48

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #52 on: 14 March 2012, 21:13:21 »
You can certainly use an Ultra/2 that way - the Bane does to reasonably good effect - but if you're talking design changes, it's not the best way to go.  LB 2-Xs are going to be more practical for critting things because they can generate the clusters without the perils and annoyances of going Ultra (jams, heat, and ammo expenditure).  And they're more accurate doing it, especially against airborne units.

Agreed.  Quad 2-X's in something as tough as a Dire Wolf essentially declares the battlefield off limits for anything in the air.


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cold1

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #53 on: 14 March 2012, 22:27:35 »
In a 4/6 mech, how are you going to survive to get close enough to cut off fire arcs or take advantage of cover when you lose initiative?   

Above is with the understanding that the Dire Wolf will probably be about double your BV.  I'd think the "better" alternative as the I/S would be running a Devestator and hoping your get lucky - but that's just my $.02.

4/6/4 helps tremendously if there is some terrain.  But your options are limited.  Multiple head cappers, JJs, and a maybe a TC on a 4/6/4 assault is a good start if you can't call in orbital bombardment.


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Beukeboom Fan

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #54 on: 15 March 2012, 10:28:28 »
4/6/4 helps tremendously if there is some terrain.  But your options are limited.  Multiple head cappers, JJs, and a maybe a TC on a 4/6/4 assault is a good start if you can't call in orbital bombardment.

I think that the best movement Sunder gets though is 4/6/3 with the D configuration (2xPPC, LB20x).   I just don't see how that weapons package is going to be the optimum solution against a Dire Wolf.  Because if the terrain is tight - the DW is probably going S configuration (3/5/3, LB-20, LPL, 5xMPL, 2x STR4, 2xMG) which is going to get REAL ugly for the Sunder really quickly.  (Again - pretty much any mech is going to come up light against a DW, just not understanding why the Sunder would be a really good option.)

Iron Mongoose

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #55 on: 15 March 2012, 12:23:04 »
4/6/4 helps tremendously if there is some terrain.  But your options are limited.  Multiple head cappers, JJs, and a maybe a TC on a 4/6/4 assault is a good start if you can't call in orbital bombardment.

A mech I'd been thinking that comes close to this is the Templar A, but its got only the ER PPC and Ultra 10 (TCed in this case) backed by the SSRM6.  If you had enough pilot to make up the BV difrence you might be able to win on aimed shots, but that's pretty much your only hope given that even the Dire Wolf B can throw out 30% more damge with ease.

As far as Sunders go, even the Clan LPL mounting R is outdone by several Dire Wolves, so I might, if I was being cheeky, pick the C, which if it can get the drop on a Dire Wolf from three hexes in at least can deliver power on comperable levels and just might be able to land some telling blows.

None of the Hauptmenn are quite as specalized as I like.  The B is my traditional go to, but it (and the Prime) fairly closely recalls the W and Widowmaker and Promethius, which also pair an AC20 with other ranged weapons, and they're all vastly better.  The E is one I'm only seeing now as I do reserch for this, and I do feel like I like it, but its got nothing near Dire Wolf power levels.

The crazy thing is, these mechs arn't that much lower in BV.  The Haupty B comes in at 2208, just 504 points below the Dire Wolf Prime and only 30% less than the Widowmaker that would eat it for lunch.  The top Sunders tend to come in just around 2k (the R is 2462) and most of the Templars are in that same range.  The best Hauptmann models are at nearly 2.4k, less than a BA point's difrence to a Dire Wolf B or Prime.
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Ghost_msl

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #56 on: 15 March 2012, 16:47:49 »
A mech I'd been thinking that comes close to this is the Templar A, but its got only the ER PPC and Ultra 10 (TCed in this case) backed by the SSRM6.  If you had enough pilot to make up the BV difrence you might be able to win on aimed shots, but that's pretty much your only hope given that even the Dire Wolf B can throw out 30% more damge with ease.

As far as Sunders go, even the Clan LPL mounting R is outdone by several Dire Wolves, so I might, if I was being cheeky, pick the C, which if it can get the drop on a Dire Wolf from three hexes in at least can deliver power on comperable levels and just might be able to land some telling blows.

None of the Hauptmenn are quite as specalized as I like.  The B is my traditional go to, but it (and the Prime) fairly closely recalls the W and Widowmaker and Promethius, which also pair an AC20 with other ranged weapons, and they're all vastly better.  The E is one I'm only seeing now as I do reserch for this, and I do feel like I like it, but its got nothing near Dire Wolf power levels.

The crazy thing is, these mechs arn't that much lower in BV.  The Haupty B comes in at 2208, just 504 points below the Dire Wolf Prime and only 30% less than the Widowmaker that would eat it for lunch.  The top Sunders tend to come in just around 2k (the R is 2462) and most of the Templars are in that same range.  The best Hauptmann models are at nearly 2.4k, less than a BA point's difrence to a Dire Wolf B or Prime.

I would happily take a Dire Wolf Prime up against any of the standard configurations of the Hauptmann - the reach of a DW Prime is the major feature in my opinion and the key to using it, none of the Hauptman configurations can match it.

Iron Mongoose

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #57 on: 16 March 2012, 01:23:18 »
The sad thing is, given thouse MPLs, even getting your Hauptmann into AC20 range isn't going to do you any favors against a Dire Wolf Prime.
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RedDevilCG

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #58 on: 16 March 2012, 18:41:22 »
And flippable arms.  If it didn't have the flippable arms, it would at least be back-stabbable.....

Cidwm

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #59 on: 17 March 2012, 02:18:54 »
Reading this article has made me realiize that the Hauptmann should have been a Innersphere Dire Wolf. Seeing as how the Innersphere can manufacture everything on the Dire Wolf besides the Clan tech engine and heatsinks I see no reason why there are no Dire Wolf clones using Innersphere Engines and heatsinks. With the DW fearsome reputation Coventry Metal works should have built Dire Wolfs instead of Hauptmanns. With an IS XL engine plus using only 12 double heatsinks you could have 53.5 tons of pod space or you can use a 300 Light Engine and have 48.5 tons of pod space. [blank]


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