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Author Topic: MOTW - Dire Wolf  (Read 19317 times)

jymset

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #60 on: 17 March 2012, 05:07:12 »
The Hauptmann preceded the invention of the Light Engine.

And given the alternatives of Standard and XL Engine, very many people will agree that the Hauptmann's biggest positive feature is its Standard Engine.

Few will argue that in a stand-up fight, the Hauptmann will come just ahead of one of the other IS Assault Omnis. That said, many of the "solutions" to combating the Daishi in this thread have revolved around a 4/6 or faster unit - this is simply because few 3/5 'Mechs could ever go up against a Daishi with any hope of winning, so mobility has to be a factor.
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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #61 on: 17 March 2012, 07:13:12 »
Yeah.  And doing it with IS hardware just makes the whole thing worse.  All of my real picks for trying to beat a Dire Wolf at its own game are Clan units.  A Devastator isn't too far off the list, though.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #62 on: 17 March 2012, 07:37:58 »
Go read the TRO again, the Hauptmann is CMWs answer to the Dire Wolf:
Quote
The Hauptmann, the Lyran Alliance's first OmniMech design, is based on captured Clan Daishis.

As to why they used a standard engine (and dropped five tons), no idea. The question even comes up in the fluff.

Regarding the Dire Wolf, the chassis is about as basic as it can get. Average speed for its weight, standard structure, maxed standard armor (i consider armor effectively maxed when its within a quarter ton from maximum), and a Clantech XL engine for maximized payload.
And what a payload. There are dropships with less firepower!
Any article about the Dire Wolf isn't really about the Mech. Its about what insane things you can do with over 50 tons of Clantech weapons!
This is probably the only Mech in the game where the additional fixed DHS don't bother me at all. You'll need more anyway to support that many weapons.
I'd have liked to place them myself in the chassis, but hey, the world is a cruel place.
In a way, the Dire Wolf even has too much podspace. Thanks to the reduced size of Clan guns and DHS, you can usually just fit everything you want inside an Omni.
Not here. Someone said the DW acts more like an IS Assault. Well, its the same with designing good configs for it, the way you have to juggle weight and crit space. Its almost an art.
And the canon configs cut quite a few corners there. Some can overheat beyond insanity, and others almost cheat. Single Shot Streak SRM4? (SSSSRM4? *snicker*). Thats desperate...

Beating it at its own game? With TC aimed pulse gone?
Bane 3, Hellstar, and tons of luck.
With IS tech, maybe the Fafnir, or my LFE Devastator. And luck. Lots of it...

Cidwm

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #63 on: 17 March 2012, 10:22:31 »
Quote
Go read the TRO again, the Hauptmann is CMWs answer to the Dire Wolf:

I've have many times. I've owned TRO 3060 since it first came out. The Hauptmann has never shown to me that it is the answer to a Dire Wolf. CMW would have been better off replicating Dire Wolfs.

Quote
Yeah.  And doing it with IS hardware just makes the whole thing worse.

True, but it's better then nothing and better then a Hauptmann.


Now as for the Dire Wolf it's self, 50.5 tons of pod space mounted on a very heavy armored chassis. What more needs to be said? You can mount more firepower then a typical Innersphere Lance from 3025 era.  8)


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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #64 on: 17 March 2012, 10:43:43 »
Well, noone's ever said it was a good answer... :D

Cidwm

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #65 on: 17 March 2012, 12:40:13 »
Well, noone's ever said it was a good answer... :D

 :)) :D


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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #66 on: 17 March 2012, 14:37:00 »
Yeah.  And doing it with IS hardware just makes the whole thing worse.  All of my real picks for trying to beat a Dire Wolf at its own game are Clan units.  A Devastator isn't too far off the list, though.

I'm tempted to go with a Thunder Hawk and hope I win the headcapping probability curve race. Yes, not a statistically reliable choice, I know.
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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #67 on: 17 March 2012, 15:35:11 »
One of the intresting things about some of the 'lesser' Dire Wolves is that their BV is actualy rather reasonable.  It was a lot worse under BV1, when the Prime and B cost less than most Summoners and Timber Wolves, but given what you get there are still some pretty good values out there.  The H, for example, offers four heat neutral head cappers with a TC for under three grand.  Adding PPCs would cost you a squad of high end BA or half a light mech in BV.  The Prime and B still cost about the same as good heavies.  Once BV is done away with, we'll see if Summoners don't become more attractive on a cost basis, but as it is most of the under 3k choices look pretty nice.


I need to add my agreement to this. When I was with the Horses in the FGC, the H was my go to assault. It never let me down in that roll. My Custom Direwolf....got head shot whenever I brought it out ><

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #68 on: 09 May 2018, 01:51:32 »
On a whim, I pulled up Sarna and SSW and set about building the Dire Wolves Phelan and Natasha used when they tested out in Blood Legacy.  Lo and behold!  There are some issues.   The Widowmaker LRM variant comes in a half ton light, but fully crit packed.

Phelan's Lone Wolf also comes in a half ton light, but with 6 free crits. So replacing that OS SRM 6 with a stock model and a ton of ammo works trivially.

Shouldn't be surprised, there were plenty of issues in that fight, like Vlad's "Executioner."
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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #69 on: 09 May 2018, 08:29:13 »
Someone mentioned a Raptor. Would love to see a BV balanced Raptor R vs Dire Wolf fight. Sure, the Raptor comes up about 300% mass and over half of that being guns, but the movement mod would allow it to dance at long range where it only worries about very lucky shots from ERLLs or the autocannons if you’re running the Prime.

Empyrus

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #70 on: 09 May 2018, 09:13:08 »
Someone mentioned a Raptor. Would love to see a BV balanced Raptor R vs Dire Wolf fight. Sure, the Raptor comes up about 300% mass and over half of that being guns, but the movement mod would allow it to dance at long range where it only worries about very lucky shots from ERLLs or the autocannons if you’re running the Prime.
Unfortunately speed doesn't guarantee protection forever. You don't need but one or two hits at the Raptor and it is either gone or crippled.
With a quick look, closest BV balance would be, Daishi Prime vs Raptor R, 4/3 vs 1/0, with some 40 BV difference for the Raptor.

At 25 hexes, the Raptor has 2 ERLL, while the Daishi has 4. The Raptor can keep firing one ERLL infinitely, and the other every other turn, while the Daishi can do the same with three, adding fourth every other turn. If the Raptor comes to 21 hexes, the Daishi can add the Ultras and LRM-10 to the barrage. If the Raptor attempts backstabbing... well, the Daishi can flip its arms, with no important loss in firepower.

While the Raptor will undoubtedly hit consistently, it will be difficult to keep avoiding the Daishi's return fire long enough. The Daishi will be looking at 11s consistently, not factoring terrain in. Depending what kind of terrain it is, the Raptor may end up slowing too much.
In open terrain, i think the Daishi will win. An ERLL will tear through the Raptor's armor so quickly, and it is just a matter of time before one hits the Raptor. Obviously the Raptor can consistently hit, and anytime it fires two ERLL, it can knock the Daishi down, which can be disastrous. But doing that from run will heat it up and slow it down, something it can ill afford.
In terrain with small forest patches, the Raptor will win likely. If the Raptor doesn't go into forests but can skirt around them to avoid speed loss, the to-hit penalties for the Daishi can become so high it cannot hit while the Raptor can. Might be a long fight though.
In confined terrain, i'm thinking the Daishi has advantage, because the Raptor loses so much speed, or at worst the Daishi can pick a spot where the Raptor has no choice but get closer, where the Daishi can bring in so many weapons it can and will hit the Raptor sooner rather than later.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #71 on: 09 May 2018, 09:53:37 »
Of course. On the other hand, it would be an amusing fight, and one that, barring an early lucky shot, would either guarantee the Raptor pilot as a bondsman, or one very upset Clanner.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #72 on: 11 May 2018, 15:55:12 »
Has anyone done a serious statistical comparison of the Dire Wolf vs the Tomahawk II. On paper it looks like the newer mech achieves the impossible and Improved big sexy DW, but i always felt underwhelmed by its configurations
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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #73 on: 12 May 2018, 08:36:45 »
Hmm, now I feel the need to try this out in MM,

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #74 on: 12 May 2018, 11:27:47 »
Has anyone done a serious statistical comparison of the Dire Wolf vs the Tomahawk II. On paper it looks like the newer mech achieves the impossible and Improved big sexy DW, but i always felt underwhelmed by its configurations
The configs of the Tomahawk II seem actively hamper it against most Dire Wolf configs, as with the exception of the prototype Tomahawk it seems to lack solid punches in half of its configurations.

Edit; As for the prototype Tomahawk, it's a serious disappointment that they didn't use the same configs on the production model.
« Last Edit: 12 May 2018, 11:32:20 by Caedis Animus »
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gyedid

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #75 on: 15 May 2018, 03:58:19 »
I've have many times. I've owned TRO 3060 since it first came out. The Hauptmann has never shown to me that it is the answer to a Dire Wolf. CMW would have been better off replicating Dire Wolfs.

Just not possible with IS tech.  You use an XL engine, there's all the baggage that comes with that.  Use a light engine and you sacrifice some pod space for the higher survivability and slightly lower cost.  And whatever pod space you DO have gets eaten up much faster with heavier, bulkier IS equipment, plus Clan DHS can be put in places the IS versions can't.  You're pretty well limited to each config being centred around at least two heavy ballistic and/or missile weapons.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

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Sabelkatten

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #76 on: 20 May 2018, 12:00:30 »
An IS version doesn't come out as badly as one might think.

It's arguably not a very useful idea, thought. 3/5 speed and XL engine means it's rather slow and/or fragile for anything except fire support.

Empyrus

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #77 on: 20 May 2018, 15:59:08 »
I have a Dire Wolf-inspired IS 'Mech somewhere in my files that is pretty powerful. Required liberal use of advanced and experimental tech but still.
EDIT Aand it ain't that great actually. Slapping Clan weapons on it, even if the worse kind (like ER pulse laser), its BV raises well over what IS tech can do at its best without resorting to things that cause BV bloat like Interface Cockpits or special armors.

Of course, slapping Clan weapons on it would increase its firepower by 10-50% easily. The Clan weapons are just so good. Replicating or approximating a chassis with IS tech is easy enough.
Replacing the Hauptmann Prime's weapons with Clan-equivalents increases its BV by over 10%, and that's before using the leftover weight for something. (Cooling's gonna suffer if one crams any more weapons in though.)

As it is, i regard the Hauptmann good enough approximation to the Dire Wolf. Not intended to be a direct copy but merely inspired, and it is done well for most part.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2018, 16:03:26 by Empyrus »
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

JPArbiter

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #78 on: 20 May 2018, 16:07:23 »
One could argue the Tenshi is a Inner Sphere Daishi equivalent.
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Empyrus

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #79 on: 20 May 2018, 16:11:28 »
Perhaps. In many ways the Tenshi chassis is improvement over the Hauptmann, if one accepts LFE vulnerability.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #80 on: 20 May 2018, 17:01:14 »
The Tenshi also has an Endo Composite chassis, so it's not quite as good at packing really crit-intensive weapons, though I don't think that's really an issue since it looks like the only thing that it outright can't equip is an HRG/iHGR, and that's not really a weapon system the Combine has any interest in.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #81 on: 09 June 2018, 21:22:12 »
I'm looking at them, and I'm thinking that the Hohiro is superior to the Widowmaker.

Yeah, that UAC-20 will wreck anything it hits, but the odds of it getting a chance to hit anything aren't good; it's more an area-denial weapon than anything else, at the Daishi's speed.

The Hohiro, on the other hand, has a fifth long range weapon, and it's one that will hit consistently at medium range.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #82 on: 09 June 2018, 21:23:39 »
The Widowmaker was always more cool than optimized.

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gyedid

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #83 on: 10 June 2018, 02:00:58 »
The Widowmaker was always more cool than optimized.

You have to remember which pilot it was intended for.  >:D

Cheers, Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Starfox1701

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #84 on: 10 June 2018, 02:12:48 »
My personal ride is a custom Dire Wolf. Got twin er LLs over twin er MLs. Other arm is a UAC20. Torsos have a HLL, LRM20 and a Streak SRM6. I call her Carona cause she gets bloody hot lol.
« Last Edit: 10 June 2018, 13:37:19 by Starfox1701 »

Luciora

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #85 on: 10 June 2018, 02:17:22 »
It just occurred to me, each arm of the Direwolf is the equivalent of a Marauder.

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #86 on: 10 June 2018, 11:23:20 »
Yup.

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gyedid

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #87 on: 10 June 2018, 12:48:36 »
My personal ride is a custom Dire Wolf. Got twin we LLs over twin we MLs. Other arm is a UAC20. Torsos have a HLL, LRM20 and a Streak SRM6. I call her Carona cause she gets bloody hot lol.

"we" lasers...?

cheers, Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #88 on: 10 June 2018, 13:07:51 »
I'm guessing they tried to type "ER" but their fingers were one key off.

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Starfox1701

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Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
« Reply #89 on: 10 June 2018, 13:36:26 »
"we" lasers...?

cheers, Gabe

Damn phone that's supposed to be er

 

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