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Author Topic: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?  (Read 6840 times)

abou

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For the life of me, I can't find the rules describing the bonuses given to lower caliber autocannons against air units such as VTOLs and aerospace fighters.  If anyone can point me in the right direction with a book and page number, I would be very appreciative.

Weirdo

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2012, 14:37:25 »
I forget the page numbers, but if you read the AA rules in Total War, you'll see that the biggest difficulty in hitting aircraft is in the range penalties their altitude adds to the shot, even if the plane directly overflies you. Small-caliber ACs are usually long-ranged, therefore they automatically make good AA weapons.

Then look up flak ammofor ACs, which gives a -2 bonus against airborne targets. Combine that with the long range of smaller ACs, and by default anything with an AC/5 becomes a good AA unit, and any AC/2s automatically makes it a great AA unit.
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SCC

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #2 on: 15 April 2012, 03:41:25 »
LB-X's are better, Cluster ammo adds another -1 and longer range

TigerShark

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #3 on: 15 April 2012, 04:01:05 »
Aero-on-Ground isn't really balanced unless you use the Strategic Operations Anti-Aircraft rules. They make much more sense than Total Warfare and give the Aero some much-needed weaknesses. Otherwise a smart Aero player can simply remain un-hittable.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #4 on: 15 April 2012, 13:14:40 »
Wasn't there something, also in SO, about needing enough damage to get through the threshold? One point of damage from an LB-2-X doesn't seem threatening …
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #5 on: 15 April 2012, 18:06:02 »
Wasn't there something, also in SO, about needing enough damage to get through the threshold? One point of damage from an LB-2-X doesn't seem threatening …
Thresholding gives you extra crit checks, but IIRC any damage at all forces a PSR for the fighter - and that means risking losing as many as six levels of altitude. 

GOTHIK

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #6 on: 15 April 2012, 18:52:17 »
Thresholding gives you extra crit checks, but IIRC any damage at all forces a PSR for the fighter - and that means risking losing as many as six levels of altitude.
Quote
ADVANCED ATMOSPHERIC CONTROL ROLLS
"The standard aerospace rules as presented in Total Warfare require any unit to make a Control Roll in the End Phase of a turn in which it is damaged while in atmosphere. Under the advanced rules, such rolls are still needed. However, rather than for every turn in which it takes damage, Control Rolls are made in every turn where a unit takes an Avionics or Control critical hit (per standard rules) or where a unit sustains a hit that exceeds its Damage Threshold. If a threshold-exceeding hit occurs that also causes critical damage, two individual Control Rolls are made. The +1 modifier for 20 points of damage does not apply when using advanced atmospheric Control Rolls." (SO p.97)
I hope that helps.

Aero-on-Ground isn't really balanced unless you use the Strategic Operations Anti-Aircraft rules. They make much more sense than Total Warfare and give the Aero some much-needed weaknesses. Otherwise a smart Aero player can simply remain un-hittable.
I've used the Advanced Atmospheric Control Rolls rules that I quoted above before, but I was never quite sure how to read the Advanced Anti-Aircraft rules from SO p.94.  Hopefully you can help Me understand them better:

ex. A fighter flies by a mech at a velocity of 3 and a distance of 4 hexes at altitude 5.
Is the range calculated as 4 hexes + 3 velocity for a total range of 7,
or is it calculated as 4 hexes + 10 (altitude 5 x 2) + 3 velocity for a total range of 17?

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #7 on: 15 April 2012, 21:14:53 »
Aero-on-Ground isn't really balanced unless you use the Strategic Operations Anti-Aircraft rules. They make much more sense than Total Warfare and give the Aero some much-needed weaknesses. Otherwise a smart Aero player can simply remain un-hittable.
I disagree.  Aero-on-Ground make lovely stationary targets for MechWarriors to blow up.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #8 on: 15 April 2012, 21:23:21 »
LB-X's are better, Cluster ammo adds another -1 and longer range

i'd say a normal AC/2 with flak is a bit better than than a LB-X AC/2 with cluster, myself. i suppose we'll just have to agree to shoot down a lot of aerospace for funsies to disagree.
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wundergoat

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #9 on: 16 April 2012, 03:07:35 »
Wasn't there something, also in SO, about needing enough damage to get through the threshold? One point of damage from an LB-2-X doesn't seem threatening …

Like mentioned above, it was an optional rule.  Personally, I think while it is pretty neat to be able to make heavily armored ground attack ASF resistant to ground fire, it just about invalidates lighter autocannons, LBX, and LRMs for anti-aircraft duty when those weapons are known for their usefulness in the role.

Now if the rule allowed for flak attack weapons (i.e. weapons designed to be good vs aircraft) to cause control rolls anyways, I could get behind it.

GOTHIK

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #10 on: 16 April 2012, 09:05:40 »
That's a great point, wundergoat!  I've had the same thought too.  What good does it do Me to have an AA 'Mech with LBX enter the battlefield only to deal damage in 1pt increments that will NEVER be able to exceed the Damage Threshold? 

For that matter, b/c the rules state that any damage that gets applied to Structural integrity is divided in half and rounded down that means that LBX can't damage Structural Integrity at all!

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #11 on: 16 April 2012, 09:26:14 »
I hope that helps.
I've used the Advanced Atmospheric Control Rolls rules that I quoted above before, but I was never quite sure how to read the Advanced Anti-Aircraft rules from SO p.94.  Hopefully you can help Me understand them better:

ex. A fighter flies by a mech at a velocity of 3 and a distance of 4 hexes at altitude 5.
Is the range calculated as 4 hexes + 3 velocity for a total range of 7,
or is it calculated as 4 hexes + 10 (altitude 5 x 2) + 3 velocity for a total range of 17?

To clarify, it'd be 4 + 10 (5*2) = 14. The +3 for velocity would get added to the to-hit calculations, not to the range. I also don't think it's a flat +1 per point of velocity, but I use the standard AA rules so I could be wrong.
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ThelVadam

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #12 on: 16 April 2012, 11:09:35 »
Wasn't there something, also in SO, about needing enough damage to get through the threshold? One point of damage from an LB-2-X doesn't seem threatening …

Yes, but multiple pilot checks make raking through a cloud of autocannon fire from a Partisan or Pike extremely dangerous  two failed pilot checks can easily mean a crash.

TonUp

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #13 on: 16 April 2012, 11:10:03 »
I disagree.  Aero-on-Ground make lovely stationary targets for MechWarriors to blow up.


I really enjoy reading about those of you who use ASF on the BT tables. I love both games separately but for me, putting them together induces mental intimidation, thoughts of clearing the table with screaming, and abdominal cramping. Fortunately for my sanity, the abstract rules from SO help with most of my symptoms.  ;D
 
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Sorry – I'm a bit rambling this morning...   ;)

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #14 on: 16 April 2012, 11:14:12 »
To each their own, and Battletech has room for everyone. 8)
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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abou

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #15 on: 17 April 2012, 16:36:57 »
Appreciate the info guys.  I'll check out the relevant pages in Total Warfare, TacOps, and StratOps.

The main reason I asked about the AC/2 and AC/5 is because that's the era I'm planning on playing in.  Of course I know about the cluster bonus of LB-X cannons, but that does me no good in the late 3rd Succession War.

How much I'll be incorporating aerospace into the game, I don't know.  VTOLs are a definite.  If things go to plan, I'll GM while my friends are part of a small merc unit.  That means lots of vehicles for the OpFor, but I'll also try to mix it up as much as I can --meaning hang on to those machine guns!

One of the scenarios I was thinking was POW extraction.  It would be set across three maps end-to-end-to-end with the center map being one of the canyons.  Blocking vehicle access would be heavy woods along the canyon floor, which means extraction would have to be via VTOLs such as the Karnov.  Of course, the players would need to work their way to the enemy area and destroy the various Partisan tanks and other guards before calling in the VTOLs.  Although, maybe they'd need to watch out for the hidden Rifleman or Jagermech.

Stuff like that is what I'm getting at.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #16 on: 17 April 2012, 16:39:12 »
Sounds like fun! O0
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pensiveswetness

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #17 on: 17 April 2012, 17:31:35 »
To clarify, it'd be 4 + 10 (5*2) = 14. The +3 for velocity would get added to the to-hit calculations, not to the range. I also don't think it's a flat +1 per point of velocity, but I use the standard AA rules so I could be wrong.

Now, for that 4 hexes of movement, it that the standard 90'm-Hex Battlemech-sized hexes or the 3x3 square sized map that is each of those 4 hexes? where to exactly place the aerotech fighter mini on the mech-scale map for determining who shots at him, how far the distance from each unit able to return fire, how much of a penalty to-hit that areotech, etc... has alway vexed me enough that i was reading the particular rules with clarity.... of course i could be mearly retarded  O:-)

GOTHIK

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #18 on: 17 April 2012, 17:39:44 »
We're refering to using Aerospace Units on Ground Maps (TW p.91).

Weirdo

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #19 on: 17 April 2012, 17:45:10 »
First off, you mean 3 hexes of movement, not 4.

For calculating range, standard rules always treat fighters as if they were in hex 0909 of whatever mapsheet they end over. You calculate the range to there, then add 2 for each level of altitude. The exception is if the ground unit was directly attacked by the fighter, in which case you only look at altitude, since you're assumed to fire as the plane passes overhead. The only standard modifiers for hitting a fighter are the normal ones at your end(your movement, any relevant crits, etc), range, and the angle of attack, which you can find on page 237 of TW. If you notice, the target's speed does not matter at all under normal rules. That modifier for velocity is an advanced and optional rule in StratOps.

We're refering to using Aerospace Units on Ground Maps (TW p.91).

I use those exclusively as well, though to avoid confusing pensiveswetness I'm only describing the standard rules here.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #20 on: 17 April 2012, 19:17:32 »
Yes, but multiple pilot checks make raking through a cloud of autocannon fire from a Partisan or Pike extremely dangerous  two failed pilot checks can easily mean a crash.

I was under the impression that the number of failures didn't matter. Once a pilot check was failed, 1d6 levels were lost and the ASF lived or died. Am I mistaken?
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Weirdo

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #21 on: 17 April 2012, 19:21:15 »
No, you are correct. Once hits force a piloting roll on you, there's only the one roll in a turn, unless other circumstances which force rolls happen, such as certain critical hits.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #22 on: 17 April 2012, 20:19:55 »
[tries to form question about MoF and altitudes lost] [metalhealth]
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pensiveswetness

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #23 on: 17 April 2012, 21:44:21 »
First off, you mean 3 hexes of movement, not 4.

For calculating range, standard rules always treat fighters as if they were in hex 0909 of whatever mapsheet they end over. You calculate the range to there, then add 2 for each level of altitude. The exception is if the ground unit was directly attacked by the fighter, in which case you only look at altitude, since you're assumed to fire as the plane passes overhead. The only standard modifiers for hitting a fighter are the normal ones at your end(your movement, any relevant crits, etc), range, and the angle of attack, which you can find on page 237 of TW. If you notice, the target's speed does not matter at all under normal rules. That modifier for velocity is an advanced and optional rule in StratOps.

I use those exclusively as well, though to avoid confusing pensiveswetness I'm only describing the standard rules here.
please.... the polite term is PW :D... i just unfolded a map to visualize it. and it does help me understand it better. I assume similar positions occur if your playing using tabletop mini rules (slightly off center of the table for location of the fighter)?

Weirdo

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #24 on: 17 April 2012, 22:36:00 »
I actually have no clue how minis rules treats fighters...
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pensiveswetness

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #25 on: 18 April 2012, 13:27:17 »
the last time i used aerospace was over a decade ago with friends back in Norfolk/Virginia Beach. I was the arsehole who brought to the table 20 Boeing Jump Bombers to the table in one VERY long round. Jaws dropped when they saw all the minis pop into view.... but again i dont recall how we ruled it (though i know i lost 1/2 of them outbound of the board)

GOTHIK

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #26 on: 18 April 2012, 16:30:30 »
where did you get Boeing Jump Bomber minis?!

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #27 on: 19 April 2012, 10:27:59 »
To clarify, it'd be 4 + 10 (5*2) = 14. The +3 for velocity would get added to the to-hit calculations, not to the range. I also don't think it's a flat +1 per point of velocity, but I use the standard AA rules so I could be wrong.

BTW. What kind of target numbers we would be looking at on the return? That is for the ASF? Are the ranges same for ASF?

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #28 on: 19 April 2012, 10:42:13 »
As in ASF shooting at the ground unit? It varies depending on the kind of attack you're performing, but in all cases, range presents no modifier while target movment does generate modifiers. In the end, the odds are pretty similar most of the time.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #29 on: 19 April 2012, 12:34:23 »
range presents no modifier

Does that mean that ASF uses the same ranges as ground units use on them?

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #30 on: 19 April 2012, 14:01:17 »
No.

Ground units shooting at fighters: Range equals altitude*2, plus distance to the fighter's hex if you're not directly attacked.

Fighters shooting at ground units: Range equals short. That simple.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #31 on: 19 April 2012, 14:25:51 »
No.

Ground units shooting at fighters: Range equals altitude*2, plus distance to the fighter's hex if you're not directly attacked.

Fighters shooting at ground units: Range equals short. That simple.

Well, i quess those light fighters with MLs and SLs have some chances then...

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #32 on: 19 April 2012, 14:33:37 »
Very much so. Those smaller planes with clusters of lasers are handy for shooting 'mechs in the back or tanks in the sides. Just remember that the secret to keeping them alive is not their speed, it's your ability to send them after isolated targets so less units can shoot back.

They're also about the only units I'll voluntarily perform a strafe with, since their multiple guns means good odds for getting motive crits on the sides of tanks or for hitting multiple suits of BA, which are the only targets I'll strafe. These smaller birds are also cheap enough that their inevitable loss* doesn't hurt me too bad.

*said loss being the reason I'll otherwise never strafe.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #33 on: 19 April 2012, 16:02:05 »
Fighters shooting at ground units: Range equals short. That simple.
I wouldn't even phrase it that way.

If the gun has enough reach to be used at all (and I suddenly can't find that rule), the target number is Gunnery plus target movement and terrain, plus four for strafing. Or two for the other types. "Target terrain" means it's hex, and none other. And there's this note about how prone and partial partial cover never apply… Which in turn means a little less skill is required to get hits on anybody wading across a creak.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #34 on: 19 April 2012, 16:05:02 »
They're also about the only units I'll voluntarily perform a strafe with, since their multiple guns means good odds for getting motive crits on the sides of tanks or for hitting multiple suits of BA, which are the only targets I'll strafe.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #35 on: 19 April 2012, 16:31:44 »
For the life of me, I can't find the rules describing the bonuses given to lower caliber autocannons against air units such as VTOLs and aerospace fighters.  If anyone can point me in the right direction with a book and page number, I would be very appreciative.

LB-X's are better, Cluster ammo adds another -1 and longer range

As already mentioned in the Era your looking for FLAK ammo is the AA option for you.

LBX's are "sometimes" better.
Cluster has a -1 to hit, and longer range as stated.
BUT, it also hits in 1 point blocks.  Which are extremely likely to not cause any threshold.
Also, sometimes certain aircraft are so thin skinned that you really WANT that 5 or 10 point hit to just core them.

I recently smiled as an LB10X plastered me w/ pellets thinking at worst I'll take motive damage and be far away the next turn.  Only to have the concentrated LPL damage core me through the rear and left my vtol a flaming wreck.

Point being, there are advantages to both methods.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #36 on: 19 April 2012, 23:31:33 »
Very much so. Those smaller planes with clusters of lasers are handy for shooting 'mechs in the back or tanks in the sides. Just remember that the secret to keeping them alive is not their speed, it's your ability to send them after isolated targets so less units can shoot back.

They're also about the only units I'll voluntarily perform a strafe with, since their multiple guns means good odds for getting motive crits on the sides of tanks or for hitting multiple suits of BA, which are the only targets I'll strafe. These smaller birds are also cheap enough that their inevitable loss* doesn't hurt me too bad.

*said loss being the reason I'll otherwise never strafe.

Ok. That sounds pretty balanced.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #37 on: 22 April 2012, 11:33:39 »
I wouldn't even phrase it that way.

If the gun has enough reach to be used at all (and I suddenly can't find that rule), the target number is Gunnery plus target movement and terrain, plus four for strafing. Or two for the other types. "Target terrain" means it's hex, and none other. And there's this note about how prone and partial partial cover never apply… Which in turn means a little less skill is required to get hits on anybody wading across a creak.

But sometimes you need a range, for example HAGs cluster hit rolls are modified by range bracket.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #38 on: 22 April 2012, 12:21:37 »
You've got a range: Short.

If the gun has enough reach to be used at all (and I suddenly can't find that rule)

If it's not a melee weapon, it has enough reach. That's the extent of it.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #39 on: 22 April 2012, 12:45:47 »
To clarify, it'd be 4 + 10 (5*2) = 14. The +3 for velocity would get added to the to-hit calculations, not to the range. I also don't think it's a flat +1 per point of velocity, but I use the standard AA rules so I could be wrong.

It is indeed +1 per velocity, and it's one of the most broken parts of the Aerospace rules around.  I threw the velocity mod out long ago.  It's hard enough to hit a striking Aerospace Fighter between the range, +2 for firing at anything but the nose or aft, etc, etc.  When you can control where you strike, there's no need to make it even harder for ground units to return fire.  Players in our campaign still love Aerospace and use it regularly, but it cannot strike the board with impugnity.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #40 on: 22 April 2012, 12:47:54 »
Yeah, that's what I like about the standard AA rules. Fighters are very powerful, but you have to be smart with them. You slip up, and it's VERY easy for the ground-pounders to make you pay.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #41 on: 22 April 2012, 15:02:00 »
Yeah, that's what I like about the standard AA rules. Fighters are very powerful, but you have to be smart with them. You slip up, and it's VERY easy for the ground-pounders to make you pay.

What I don't like about the standard rules is the very arbitrary assignment of the fighter to hex 0909.  Measuring the range to anywhere on the flight line works just fine, and really doesn't make the fighters any more vulnerable - in fact, if the fighter pilot is smart and picks targets along the edge of an enemy force, they're actually safer from return fire.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #42 on: 22 April 2012, 15:15:06 »
...which is why I always use the Aero Units on the Ground Map. I've hardly ever used the 0909 stuff.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #43 on: 22 April 2012, 16:50:17 »
...which is why I always use the Aero Units on the Ground Map. I've hardly ever used the 0909 stuff.

You must have a pretty big play area then!   :)

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #44 on: 22 April 2012, 16:51:51 »
4' by 8' maps with 2" hexes.

On the other hand, it's perfectly feasible to keep fighters on paper map setups as small as 2*2. Conventionals need more room, but ASFs have no problems at all.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #45 on: 22 April 2012, 17:57:18 »
But sometimes you need a range, for example HAGs cluster hit rolls are modified by range bracket.
Point, but not that often.
You've got a range: Short.

If it's not a melee weapon, it has enough reach. That's the extent of it.
… And for the other guns on the unit?

Add in the range mods last.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #46 on: 22 April 2012, 18:01:37 »
And for the other guns on the unit?

Add in the range mods last.

You can add the modifier for short range anytime you like, really. Adding zero to an addition equation doesn't really mess with order of operations.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #47 on: 22 April 2012, 18:24:08 »
Has anyone used those lance special abilities? I was wondering if that AA-speciality might have an adverse effect on game balance?

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #48 on: 22 April 2012, 18:32:00 »
Doubt it. Air-to-ground tactics center around finding isolated units that can't be supported by buddies, and doing things to them that are illegal in 38 states. AA-specialty lances would simply fall under the category of buddies to avoid, even more so than most ground concentrations.

And if your enemy doesn't have any units far from the protection of AA forces...then they're doing AA right. At this point you must either call off the airstrikes, go in anyway and accept the cost in downed aircraft, or call in ground artillery on that juicy concentration of forces.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #49 on: 22 April 2012, 18:52:03 »
If it's not a melee weapon, it has enough reach.

So you're saying we don't have a rule to allow a 'mech to jump up and hatchet an ASF flying nape of the earth? I think Paul needs another crotch-kick....

 ;)
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #50 on: 22 April 2012, 18:55:14 »
Only if said rules allows for the fact that such a difference in velocities should mean that any successful attack causes the attacker's arm and attached side torso to be ripped off. O:-)

Feel free to kick Paul regardless, of course. ;)
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #51 on: 22 April 2012, 19:00:41 »
Measuring the range to anywhere on the flight line works just fine...
For some reason, I was under the impression that when using the Aerospace Units on Ground Maps rules, unless the attacking ground unit was DIRECTLY in the ASF's flight path (or 1 adjacent hex to either side) you measure the range from the attacking ground unit to the ASF's ending hex ... is that incorrect?

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #52 on: 22 April 2012, 19:10:03 »
Only if said rules allows for the fact that such a difference in velocities should mean that any successful attack causes the attacker's arm and attached side torso to be ripped off. O:-)


But the fighter should suffer an equally-brutal impact. Equal and opposite forces and all of that....
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #53 on: 22 April 2012, 19:14:08 »
For some reason, I was under the impression that when using the Aerospace Units on Ground Maps rules, unless the attacking ground unit was DIRECTLY in the ASF's flight path (or 1 adjacent hex to either side) you measure the range from the attacking ground unit to the ASF's ending hex ... is that incorrect?

Partially correct. You always measure to the aircraft's ending hex, unless you or your hex were directly attacked by the aircraft. If it simply overflies you, you target the ending hex.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #54 on: 22 April 2012, 20:01:06 »
So you're saying we don't have a rule to allow a 'mech to jump up and hatchet an ASF flying nape of the earth? I think Paul needs another crotch-kick....

 ;)

Until I read the ground units in space rules, I saw the U omni variants with hatchets and hoped they were meant for playing baseball with Aeros. I was sad when I found out that it just provides a boarding bonus.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #55 on: 23 April 2012, 00:06:49 »
Partially correct. You always measure to the aircraft's ending hex, unless you or your hex were directly attacked by the aircraft. If it simply overflies you, you target the ending hex.

gotcha!  thanks.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #56 on: 23 April 2012, 00:25:14 »
Partially correct. You always measure to the aircraft's ending hex, unless you or your hex were directly attacked by the aircraft. If it simply overflies you, you target the ending hex.

A while ago i asked about those heat seeking LRMs and i got the picture that it was possible to pick a hex along the line of the attack. This would propably make them more usefull, but i quess not...

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #57 on: 23 April 2012, 05:40:57 »
For some reason, I was under the impression that when using the Aerospace Units on Ground Maps rules, unless the attacking ground unit was DIRECTLY in the ASF's flight path (or 1 adjacent hex to either side) you measure the range from the attacking ground unit to the ASF's ending hex ... is that incorrect?

What I'm explaining is that my house rules use the first half of the advanced rules from TacOps, but throws out the silly +1 per hex of velocity nonsense.  I don't play Aerospace units on Ground Maps.  Despite what Wierdo says, I think on a 2 x 2, an Aerospace Fighter is going to find itself extremely hamstrung in it's ability to maneuver, which is quite silly.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #58 on: 23 April 2012, 13:53:41 »
I don't think he said it was easy …  ;)
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #59 on: 23 April 2012, 13:57:31 »
I should have. All it takes is powered turns, the occasional split-S, and a willingness to fly at velocity 1.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #60 on: 23 April 2012, 15:54:15 »
how do you handle the rules that state the ASF must travel straight across the entire map that it strikes or strafes on, when you're playing on 2 maps x 2 maps?
The only way I've found around this is to allow the ASF to turn on the map edge, but I don't believe that to be legal.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #61 on: 23 April 2012, 15:56:14 »
That straight across the map bit is in standard rules, not the Aero Unit on Ground Maps rules. For those, you simply need to overfly the hex(es) you intend to attack. Fly any weird pattern you want.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #62 on: 23 April 2012, 16:43:10 »
wait a second .... if that doesn't apply to ASFs on ground maps, when DOES it apply?

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #63 on: 23 April 2012, 16:50:22 »
When using the standard rules. Y'know, the ones that keep fighters on the Low Altitude Map, assigned ground mapsheet to specific low-altitude hexes, and you only plot that straightline path when a fighter ends its movement in a hex corresponding to a ground map.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #64 on: 23 April 2012, 17:19:04 »
no way!  OMFgz0rz!!!1!  that makes things SOOOO much easier!!!
Thanks, Weirdo!

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #65 on: 23 April 2012, 17:41:32 »
I've seen a lot of strange reactions to my sayings around here, but I do believe that's a new one... ;D
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #66 on: 23 April 2012, 19:48:19 »
The thing that bugs me about the ground map rules (as implemented in MM anyway) is the whole 'all movement must be divisible by 8' thing. Maybe that's less of an issue with power turns and such, but it makes runing CFs and trying to land aerodyne DS a pain in the plot.

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #67 on: 23 April 2012, 19:50:38 »
That's probably an issue with the way MM implements pwoer turns. I've never seen any rule in TW that demands that.

It makes sense for CFs though, since they are incapable of power turns. Those guys need much bigger maps to operate over.
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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #68 on: 23 April 2012, 23:12:32 »
IIRC, 8 hexes was a minimum for very slow fighters to get "free" facing changes, and the number grew according to some table.

Power turns could bend that rule; I forget if the special maneuvers had to "wait' for a 'brake point" to be done.
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Weirdo

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Re: AC/2 and AC/5 bonus against air units -- location of rules?
« Reply #69 on: 23 April 2012, 23:14:18 »
Special maneuvers can only be done at the beginning of movement. And power turns cost thrust equal to your velocity. And so if your fighters rarely break velocity 2 because you're trying to keep them on a small map...

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