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Author Topic: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?  (Read 5111 times)

Neufeld

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What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« on: 17 April 2012, 04:08:40 »
So, the Intro Rulebook defined various types of mechs. One of them was the 'Juggernaut', which included the Atlas, the Cyclops and the Hunchback.

Now, going from the description we have:
Quote
Juggernauts are slow-moving ’Mechs with excellent short-
range firepower. Lacking long-range weapons or speed, jugger-
nauts must rely on brute force to maneuver their way to within
attack distance of the enemy. These ’Mechs are usually very well
armored so that they can withstand heavy fire as they slowly
advance toward the enemy. In theory, this armor is sufficient to
allow them to get in a few successful shots—which is all they
need to take out their opponents.
and
Quote
The three juggernauts shown below all carry the massive
AC/20. The most damaging weapon in the Classic BattleTech
Introductory Rulebook, the AC/20 inflicts 20 points of damage to
a single location when it hits.

Now, this raises several questions:

- Armor: Neither the Cyclops nor the Hunchback are exactly well armored with only 10 tons (160 pts) of armor, but that amount will at least last a while. What is more of an issue is designs like the AC/20 Urbanmech (64 pts), Hunchback IIC (96 pts) and Blitzkrieg (116 pts) that no one can claim have good armor. Going by the text above, I would expect a juggernaut to be able to march across a field and not be destroyed in the first turn of fire, so my call would be that the latter three has simply too weak armor. So, what do you think about this issue?

- Speed: Lacking speed is mentioned above, but should that be treated as a consequence or requirement? Since speed does affect deployment a lot, I would say requirement, with 4/6 being slow enough and 5/8 being too fast. Still, there is the issue of jump-jets: Is 4/6/4 too fast? Is 4/6/6 too fast?

- Firepower: This issue is the most unclear, especially with the increase of it once lostech is reintroduced and the Clans shows up. Should a juggernaut require an AC/20 type of weapon? If so, what about the improved Heavy Gauss? Or should it be able to do with any head-capper, including the Gauss Rifle? Or should just devastating close-range firepower be enough, allowing designs like Sagittaire and BattleMaster to qualify?


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Stormfury

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #1 on: 17 April 2012, 05:30:12 »
I think you've missed the key element of context; a "juggernaut" typically has low speed, good armour, and heavy short-range firepower for its size and era.

Issues with armour placement aside, the Hunchback is heavily armoured, and at 4/6 is slow for its class.

The Cyclops's armour may seem weak, but the actual armour mass it has is not that unusual for the assault class; whether or not that is a good idea is another matter entirely.

As anyone who's used an Atlas before can attest, the LRM is a side dish for the main armament. Given the propensity towards the 4/6 movement curve in the assault class, it is both objectively and subjectively slow.

Even the UrbanMech makes the grade here; it is still heavily armoured for a light 'Mech, it's as slow as a wet week, and it can kill other units of the same weight bracket quite quickly, if it can ever catch them. Even heavier units have good reason to avoid it.

The biggest problem with the classification of designs as "juggernauts" is that in a very real sense they do not exist outside of the Introductory/Tech Level 1/3025 environment. The Blitzkrieg you mention, along with fast, hard-hitting machines, is a skirmisher, albeit one with a very large gun. Many of the designs that would carry an A/C-20's mass in a single weapon instead devote it to having a Gauss Rifle. Pulse boats like the Saggittaire and infighters like the Clan Kodiak are brawlers, and so on.
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foxbat

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #2 on: 17 April 2012, 05:41:11 »

- Armor: Neither the Cyclops nor the Hunchback are exactly well armored with only 10 tons (160 pts) of armor, but that amount will at least last a while. What is more of an issue is designs like the AC/20 Urbanmech (64 pts), Hunchback IIC (96 pts) and Blitzkrieg (116 pts) that no one can claim have good armor. Going by the text above, I would expect a juggernaut to be able to march across a field and not be destroyed in the first turn of fire, so my call would be that the latter three has simply too weak armor. So, what do you think about this issue?

None of them are Juggernauts IMO : the Urbanmech as it is too light, and cannot sustain any significant kind of damage. The [Blitzkrieg, and Hunchback IIC, because they sacrifice staying power for extra firepower (HBK IIc) or fast speed (Blitzkrieg). Furthermore, both latter designs use new or Clan tech, unavailable in the Intro Rules.

- Speed: Lacking speed is mentioned above, but should that be treated as a consequence or requirement? Since speed does affect deployment a lot, I would say requirement,with 4/6 being slow enough and 5/8 being too fast. Still, there is the issue of jump-jets: Is 4/6/4 too fast? Is 4/6/6 too fast?

Not sure : as I see things, a Juggernaut can jump. The Victor is a good candidate for the category.


- Firepower: This issue is the most unclear, especially with the increase of it once lostech is reintroduced and the Clans shows up. Should a juggernaut require an AC/20 type of weapon? If so, what about the improved Heavy Gauss? Or should it be able to do with any head-capper, including the Gauss Rifle? Or should just devastating close-range firepower be enough, allowing designs like Sagittaire and BattleMaster to qualify?

In my opinion, all the mechs you are giving as instances are using new technology, which cannot be found in the intro rules. I've taken the IR categories more as a way to give a beginner a quick idea of the main sorts of mechs and how these should be used according top their role than as a catalog set in stone. But of course, YMMV  ;)
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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #3 on: 17 April 2012, 13:30:07 »
Juggernauts cannot be blocked by walls [rimshot]

A juggernaut cannot be too slow.  It must be just fast enough that backing away from it allows it to catch up and running away from it gives the snipers supporting it backshots.  An Atlas is a good juggernaut, but works best with an Awesome, or even a couple of Panther's, supporting it.
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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #4 on: 17 April 2012, 13:51:23 »
King Crab is a Juggernaut.  So is the Bane-4...  Fafnir...

But I think you get it.  Any mech that lumbers forward under its own weight of arms and armor as a threat instead of any sort of maneuvering guile is a "Juggernaut".  That will just about be any 3/5 mover with a preference for high gross yield short range weapons.

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #5 on: 17 April 2012, 13:58:19 »
I would also argue that anything that with its own punches could headcap another mech, or kicks that can crit any mech's legs of medium or lower weight count as juggernauts.

Admittedly, that's a lot of assault mechs. 

Basically, any mech that you don't want to get too near is a juggernaut.  A skirmisher is a mech that can fire at range.  A juggernaut is built to get up close and personal, inexorably advancing and crushing whatever gets in its path.
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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #6 on: 17 April 2012, 15:32:12 »

Not sure : as I see things, a Juggernaut can jump. The Victor is a good candidate for the category.
A juggernaut can jjump?  Why would you say that?  By definition, a juggernaut is a slow moving unstopable force.  Mechs that can jump - again, by definition - ain't slow moving.
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Neufeld

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #7 on: 17 April 2012, 15:38:45 »
I think I have managed to nail down a definition for a Juggernaut, and by that definition the following of the 55 original TRO3025 mechs would be juggernauts:
Hunchback, Victor, BattleMaster, Stalker, Cyclops and Atlas. Does this sound right, or has a missed one?

 

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #8 on: 17 April 2012, 15:47:45 »
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ThelVadam

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #9 on: 17 April 2012, 16:00:07 »
I think I have managed to nail down a definition for a Juggernaut, and by that definition the following of the 55 original TRO3025 mechs would be juggernauts:
Hunchback, Victor, BattleMaster, Stalker, Cyclops and Atlas. Does this sound right, or has a missed one?

actually that is a pretty good list., and can be expanded to include the King Crab, Imp, and Annihilator.  whether or not the Highlander, Thug, or Black Knight fit the bill is open to debate.

Col.Hengist

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #10 on: 17 April 2012, 16:35:56 »
I would add the Crocket also.
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Neufeld

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #11 on: 18 April 2012, 01:04:35 »
Regarding if intro-tech versions are Juggernauts:
- King Crab: yes
- Imp: no (for the same reason there are no Warhammer, Marauder and Awesome on the list, too high long-ranged damage)
- Annihilator: yes (15 hexes is too short to qualify for a long-range design)
- Highlander: no (it falls just short of the required short-range damage value of 30: AC/10 + 2xML + SRM-6 reach only 28 average damage)
- Thug: no (see Imp above)
- Black Knight: yes
- Crockett: no intro-tech RS, so I cannot check

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #12 on: 18 April 2012, 01:31:27 »
The downgraded Crockett is an absolute beast; two Large Lasers, an A/C-10, and a pair of SRM-6s. I think it also has a pair of Small Lasers, but those are pretty much irrelevant given the rest. It is a very under-rated design, one I keep forgetting to use despite its power.
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Neufeld

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #13 on: 18 April 2012, 02:06:26 »
The downgraded Crockett is an absolute beast; two Large Lasers, an A/C-10, and a pair of SRM-6s.

Which would be 2x8 + 10 + 2x8 = 42
Which does qualify it as a Juggernaut (since I think we can safely assume that it has enough armor).
A beast indeed, of the original assaults only the Stalker can compete (and overheat with 16) with its 4xML, 2xSRM-6 and 2xLL for a 52 point average short-range firepower.

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #14 on: 18 April 2012, 03:39:10 »
I think I have managed to nail down a definition for a Juggernaut, and by that definition the following of the 55 original TRO3025 mechs would be juggernauts:
Hunchback, Victor, BattleMaster, Stalker, Cyclops and Atlas. Does this sound right, or has a missed one?

Basically, the juggernaught has chosen Firepower and Armour from the old adage of "Guns, Armour, Speed - Pick 2" line of thinking.

I wouldn't put the Victor in there given that it's 4/6, jumps and has mediocre armour on it's best variant and criminally thin on the worst.

The Battlemaster is a maybe, 4/6 is still quick for an 85 ton 3025 design, but the armour is solid and the weapons are good, so it gets included.

Stalker, maybe, the LRM's and LLas' aren't short range in 3025, but it's reasonably armoured and certainly meets the plodding criteria.

Cyclops has paper armour for it's weight, and is a 90 tonner moving 4/6, I would contest the book saying it's a juggernaught.

The Urbanmech is an excellent light mech example, and despite the long range nature of it's weapons, the Awesome would also be included. The Orion, being 3/4 of an Atlas, could also apply, but I would say it's closer to a trooper than anything else.

You've got to remember, this is 3025, Assaults go 3/5, heavies are 4/6, mediums are 5/8 and lights are 6/9.


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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #15 on: 18 April 2012, 05:11:00 »
I class a mech as a 'juggernaught' if within its weight class it can amble about like a boss with little worry and punch out anything in its weight class with impunity.


Neufeld

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #16 on: 18 April 2012, 05:25:25 »
It seems that we have a general disagreement on if mech role definitions should be scaled to the weight, or defined according to fixed limits.
While I am leaning toward the second option, fair arguments can be made for the first one, as we have seen.



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Maverick__

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #17 on: 18 April 2012, 10:49:04 »
The definition for juggernaut from the book is conflicting.  I like to define juggernauts as 3/5/x or less.  Anything moving that slow has to be devoting alot of tons to armour and weapons.  Besides the speed by itself defines it's role:  Slow moving Beast that needs support of faster units.  The support units either try to keep other units away or herd other units to the 3/5 mech.  Even long range 3/5 mechs are juggernauts...but you could say they are "heavy firesupport" to be more accurate.

Col.Hengist

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #18 on: 18 April 2012, 11:25:12 »
The downgraded Crockett is an absolute beast; two Large Lasers, an A/C-10, and a pair of SRM-6s. I think it also has a pair of Small Lasers, but those are pretty much irrelevant given the rest. It is a very under-rated design, one I keep forgetting to use despite its power.

 A really great mech that I love in most incarnations...don't get to use it near enough
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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #19 on: 18 April 2012, 14:04:02 »
- Highlander: no (it falls just short of the required short-range damage value of 30: AC/10 + 2xML + SRM-6 reach only 28 average damage)

RS3039 Unabridged gives us a Highlander variant that sacrifices 2 tons of missile ammo to upgrade the AC 10 to an AC 20.  I'd say that one ought to qualify quite handily.
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Neufeld

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #20 on: 20 April 2012, 16:19:37 »
So, I tweaked my program to handle rules level filtering, and managed to produce the following lists of intro-tech juggernauts:
Code: [Select]
Mechs with highest rules level 0:
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Arm Wpns/turns of fire
Hunchback HBK-4P                50 1138  40 24/23 4   160 ml:8
Hunchback HBK-4SP               50 1043  36 20/19 4   160 srm6:2/15 ml:4
Hunchback HBK-4G                50 1041  30 13/13 4   160 ac20:1/10 ml:2
Hunchback HBK-4H                50 1067  30 15/13 4   160 ac10:1/20 ml:4
Rook NH-1B                      55 1227  30 22/20 4j  136 ppc:1 ml:4

Code: [Select]
Mechs with highest rules level 0:
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Arm Wpns/turns of fire
Catapult CPLT-C1 Jenny          65 1242  52 28/15 4j  160 srm6:4/15 ml:4
Stalker STK-4P                  75 1461  52 36/20 3   216 ll:2 srm6:2/15 ml:4
Black Knight BL-7-KNT           75 1443  46 38/20 4   176 ppc:1 ll:2 ml:4
Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L         75 1409  44 36/22 4   176 ll:3 ml:4
Hammerhands HMH-4D              75 1356  40 22/13 3   184 ppc:1 ac10:2/20 ml:2
Guillotine GLT-4P               70 1376  38 26/22 4j  160 ppc:1 srm6:1/15 ml:4
Hammerhands HMH-3D              75 1381  38 16/13 3j  184 srm6:1/15 ac10:2/20 ml:2
Guillotine GLT-4L               70 1400  36 24/22 4j  192 ll:1 srm6:1/15 ml:4
Flashman FLS-7K                 75 1480  36 28/23 4   216 ll:2 ml:4
Grasshopper GHR-5N              70 1511  35 25/22 4j  208 ppc:1 ml:5
Cataphract CTF-2X               70 1344  33 20/14 4   208 srm4:1/25 ll:1 ac10:1/20 ml:2
Thunderbolt TDR-5SS             65 1337  33 23/21 4   208 ppc:1 srm6:1/15 ml:3
Marauder MAD-3L                 75 1369  33 25/18 4   184 ac5:1/20 ppc:1 ll:1 ml:2
Lancelot LNC25-02               60 1236  31 29/19 4   152 ppc:1 ll:2 ml:1
Marauder MAD-3M                 75 1335  31 23/20 4   184 ac5:1/20 ll:2 ml:2
Orion ON1-V                     75 1298  30 15/10 4   184 srm4:2/25 ac10:1/20 ml:2
Orion ON1-VA                    75 1328  30 15/16 4   231 srm4:2/25 ac10:1/20 ml:2
Rifleman RFL-3C                 60 1066  30 12/10 4   136 ac10:2/10 ml:2
Cataphract CTF-1X               70 1316  30 19/16 4   176 ppc:1 ac10:1/10 ml:2

Code: [Select]
Mechs with highest rules level 0:
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Arm Wpns/turns of fire
Annihilator ANH-1A             100 1434  60 24/18 2   200 ac10:4/10 ml:4
Pillager PLG-1N                100 1812  55 23/16 3j  272 srm4:1/25 ac20:2/10 ml:2
Xanthos XNT-3O                 100 1948  53 30/23 3   323 ac20:1/15 ppc:1 srm6:1/15 ml:3
Stalker STK-3F                  85 1559  52 36/20 3   216 ll:2 srm6:2/15 ml:4
Stalker STK-4N                  85 1558  52 36/26 3   216 ll:2 srm6:2/15 ml:4
Devastator DVS-1D              100 1858  51 31/15 3   288 ll:2 ac10:2/20 ml:3
King Crab KGC-0000             100 1810  48 22/15 3   272 ac20:2/5 ll:1
Charger CGR-1A5                 80 1468  41 18/13 4   240 ac20:1/10 srm6:2/7 ml:1
Emperor EMP-5A                  90 1830  41 27/16 3j  279 ac5:2/20 ll:2 ml:3
Striker STC-2C                  80 1488  38 28/15 4   216 ac5:1/20 ppc:1 ll:1 ml:3
Victor VTR-9S                   80 1360  38 17/15 4j  168 ac20:1/15 srm6:1/15 ml:2
BattleMaster BLR-1G             85 1519  38 26/18 4   232 ppc:1 srm6:1/30 ml:4
Highlander HGN-733C             90 1857  38 17/13 3j  279 ac20:1/10 srm6:1/15 ml:2
Banshee BNC-3S Reinesblatt      95 1678  38 23/21 3   240 ll:1 ac10:1/20 ml:4
Atlas AS7-D                    100 1897  38 17/20 3   304 ac20:1/10 srm6:1/15 ml:2
Charger CGR-SB                  80 1604  37 35/28 3   247 ll:4 ml:1
Victor VTR-9A                   80 1236  35 16/15 4j  136 srm4:1/25 ac20:1/15 ml:2
Victor VTR-9A1                  80 1302  35 16/15 4j  160 srm4:1/25 ac20:1/15 ml:2
Victor VTR-9B                   80 1378  35 16/15 4j  184 srm4:1/25 ac20:1/15 ml:2
Cyclops CP-10-Z                 90 1317  35 16/12 4   160 srm4:1/25 ac20:1/20 ml:2
Striker STC-2S                  80 1466  35 22/15 4   216 ppc:1 ac10:1/20 ml:3
Atlas AS7-RS                   100 1849  31 22/20 3   304 srm4:1/25 ll:2 ac10:1/20
BattleMaster BLR-1D             85 1522  30 22/24 4   248 ppc:1 ml:4

Damage is based on range 6, so LRMs and short range weapons are not included.
Also excluded are mechs that does 20 points or more damage at range 18, mechs with very low armor, and mechs with walk or jump over 5.

Feel free to point out the non-juggernauts in the lists, and argue which mechs are missing.

(BTW, I have only data files from the main-line RS publications, so there are mechs from the HTP series that are missing.)

"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #21 on: 21 April 2012, 10:44:15 »
  We're talking about an intro book here- The AC20 is the only common theme and if we're looking at 3025 machines you aren't looking at speed demons. Don't read more into the term "Juggernaught" because its aimed at beginners.

bakija

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #22 on: 21 April 2012, 11:45:51 »
The definition for juggernaut from the book is conflicting.  I like to define juggernauts as 3/5/x or less.

Just 'cause I'm curious, why is it necessary to define what a "juggernaut" is?

wundergoat

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #23 on: 21 April 2012, 12:10:23 »
I think the greater question is 'Juggernaut' as significant a descriptor as brawler, or is it a subset of brawler?  Really, I only see fire support, trooper, brawler, and scout as being the main roles and things like backstabber and missile boat being subsets of these.

Neufeld

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #24 on: 21 April 2012, 12:59:07 »
... trooper, brawler, ...

An this is why I dread to discuss the Intro rules definition of a brawler.  #P


"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

bakija

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #25 on: 21 April 2012, 16:32:21 »
I think the greater question is 'Juggernaut' as significant a descriptor as brawler, or is it a subset of brawler?  Really, I only see fire support, trooper, brawler, and scout as being the main roles and things like backstabber and missile boat being subsets of these.

I don't know that that is a greater question. Why are *any* of these descriptors important?

I mean, like, I'm not trying to be combative here. I really want to know why folks think it is important to differentiate between a "juggernaut" and a "brawler" and a "trooper" or whatever. Do people set up games based on descriptors like this? (i.e. "Next week, let's play a game where we each bring 4 brawlers...") Do they have some greater use that I'm not aware of?

wundergoat

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #26 on: 21 April 2012, 16:59:02 »
I don't know that that is a greater question. Why are *any* of these descriptors important?

I mean, like, I'm not trying to be combative here. I really want to know why folks think it is important to differentiate between a "juggernaut" and a "brawler" and a "trooper" or whatever. Do people set up games based on descriptors like this? (i.e. "Next week, let's play a game where we each bring 4 brawlers...") Do they have some greater use that I'm not aware of?

It is a useful description of role and allows for abstract discussion of tactics and design e.g. it is bad for fire support to get tangled up with brawlers.

Akalabeth

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #27 on: 02 May 2012, 06:05:08 »
I think I have managed to nail down a definition for a Juggernaut, and by that definition the following of the 55 original TRO3025 mechs would be juggernauts:
Hunchback, Victor, BattleMaster, Stalker, Cyclops and Atlas. Does this sound right, or has a missed one?

The Banshee for one. Particularly the AC/20 version. Though the 3S is good as well.

Stormfury

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Re: What makes a mech a 'Juggernaut'?
« Reply #28 on: 02 May 2012, 10:01:40 »
The BNC-3S is more accurately classed as a fire support (dual PPCs and A/C-10) or brawler (A/C-10, SRM-6 and laser battery).

It's not really a juggernaut.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

 

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