MotW: Eisenfaust

[DarkISI]

Also, I have to agree...you have to know where to throw that fire. If the lance I see consists of a Thunderhawk, Eisenfaust, Zeus,
and Defiance? That Thunderhawk dies FIRST, then the Defiance, then the Zeus...The Eisenfaust can then bravely run away whiles its lancemates are getting the concentrated fire poured on them one at a time.

See, I would take out that Eisenfaust first. Because it would day relatively quickly and I can get rid of it before it can get up close and bring its full firepower to bear. After that, I will have more units and one more unit than my opponent, giving me an initiative advantage.
While the Thunderhawk has the highest damage potential, it will take longer to take it out, because it won't close in by itself, which means I will actually have a better chance to hit the Eisenfaust.

[StCptMara]

See, I would take out that Eisenfaust first. Because it would day relatively quickly and I can get rid of it before it can get up close and bring its full firepower to bear. After that, I will have more units and one more unit than my opponent, giving me an initiative advantage.
While the Thunderhawk has the highest damage potential, it will take longer to take it out, because it won't close in by itself, which means I will actually have a better chance to hit the Eisenfaust.

Thing is: the Eisenfaust is, if run by a smart player, going to be parked with Thunderhawk. My top priority when I have 3 Gauss rounds coming down town every 10 seconds is "Silence those guns!"

[willydstyle]

The eisenfaust is definitely the obvious target in that situation, due to fairly high firepower and low survivability, and that's why it's so weak. The rest of your lance might be "thanking" the eisenfaust, but it won't be for very long. The thing about assault mechs is that it takes a *lot* more effort trying to "silence those guns" and you'll have both the eisenfaust *and* the Thunderhawk firing at you for the full duration.

However, I think this little guy has some strengths that are overlooked in the article. What happens when you pack 30 DHS on a mech with such a low rated engine? If you said, "crit-packed little MFer" you won a gold star! The Eisenfaust's heat sinks actually increase its combat durability, because when you get a crit you're more likely to hit a DHS more than anything else, and it *is* heat efficient enough that losing DHS doesn't impact it's combat effectiveness that much.  Combined with a lack of explosive ammo, the XL engine, though still a liability, is not as much of a liability as it is on similar designs.

Also, this guy is almost the poster boy for "why BV2 is great."  Without a balancing system, it is definitely lackluster, but if you are using BV2 it is *cheap* for the firepower it brings, which definitely makes it worth using as a body guard, despite its crippling vulnerability.

[Savage Coyote]

*shrug*  I always see "yeah, I kill the weak guy first" comments when talking about these types of 'mechs (Falcon Hawk, Battle Hawk, and Initiate come to mind) but in play, it almost NEVER works out like that.  While you are taking the two or three turns to finish off the Eisenfaust, that THawk has put some major holes in you (not as much with a Zeus I agree, but it's the point of the matter.)  So sure, when you turn to use your "four" units, you'll eventually start to have your guys drop too (or I got lucky and teased your cockpit or ammo bins with a gauss slug.)  I mean, you can't assume you aren't going to be taking some big gun luvin' while you are picking on the little guy  :D

[willydstyle]

*shrug*  I always see "yeah, I kill the weak guy first" comments when talking about these types of 'mechs (Falcon Hawk, Battle Hawk, and Initiate come to mind) but in play, it almost NEVER works out like that.  While you are taking the two or three turns to finish off the Eisenfaust, that THawk has put some major holes in you (not as much with a Zeus I agree, but it's the point of the matter.)  So sure, when you turn to use your "four" units, you'll eventually start to have your guys drop too (or I got lucky and teased your cockpit or ammo bins with a gauss slug.)  I mean, you can't assume you aren't going to be taking some big gun luvin' while you are picking on the little guy  :D

That's the thing though: you're going to be taking the big gun luvin' whether you're picking on the little guy *or* the big guy, because the big guy takes a helluva lot more effort to bring down.

[Col.Hengist]

But when you do bring the big one down its wort it. Also I think a lot of it depends on LOS.

[willydstyle]

But when you do bring the big one down its wort it. Also I think a lot of it depends on LOS.

In this thought experiment, I'm assuming that the mechs are close enough to one another that you'll have LoS to both at the same time.

Let's pit two players against one another, both with a thunderhawk and an eisenfaust.

Player 1 concentrates on the eisenfaust until dead, player 2 concentrates on the thunderhawk.

Discounting outrageous dice luck, player 2 is going to have 1 mech versus both of player 1s mechs in short order, and that's not a very happy situation to be in.

[Scotty]

At the same time, player 2 is going to have the tattered remains of a Thunderhawk and an Eisenfaust against a 100% pristine Thunderhawk.

[willydstyle]

At the same time, player 2 is going to have the tattered remains of a Thunderhawk and an Eisenfaust against a 100% pristine Thunderhawk.

The Eisenfaust is going to be destroyed by 2 solid hits to either side torso.  A thunderhawk with similar damage is not likely to be reduced significantly in effectiveness.

[Jim1701]

The Eisenfaust is going to be destroyed by 2 solid hits to either side torso.  A thunderhawk with similar damage is not likely to be reduced significantly in effectiveness.

Better hope you get those two solid hits quickly.   [watch]

[willydstyle]

Better hope you get those two solid hits quickly.   [watch]

When it has (at medium-long range) 3 15 point hits, a 10 point hit, and an 8 point hit incoming, that's not exactly unlikely.

[Eldragon]

Pro Tip: When your mech design relies on hiding behind a Thunderhawk in order to be effective, you have a defective design.  O0

An urban mech is scary when its hiding behind an Thunderhawk.

I'm willing to trot a 4/6 medium into the field, even in post-Jihad level play. But with an XL engine? blech. Two  or Three hits to the side torso and you're dead. Even at 1200 bv2 its not THAT cheap. < 1000, that's cheap.

[Savage Coyote]

Pro-tip:  Most 'mechs don't fight alone

That said, I will have to try this one out, though I suspect it will fall into the roles I've already mentioned and have used in the past.  You can't have every single 'mech min/max or there'd really be no point

[DarkISI]

[...] You can't have every single 'mech min/max or there'd really be no point

Definitely. But if a 'Mech is bad, you are allowed to say so ;)
I still like it (otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to write this article). It has character :)

[Col.Hengist]

Pro-tip:  Most 'mechs don't fight alone

That said, I will have to try this one out, though I suspect it will fall into the roles I've already mentioned and have used in the past.  You can't have every single 'mech min/max or there'd really be no point

 Thank you!

 Too many times people disregard a mech because it can't take on a full lance of IS mechs by itself and survive.Running alpha,running alpha,running alpha etc... Lances, mechs fight in lances,stars,LVL II's,centuries...there is nothing wrong with taking a bunch of sub-optimised mechs in a lance and to me, taking a few and winning,well, thats the stuff of legend.

[Southern Coyote]

I thought that was the basis of any tactical doctrine: Never fight alone, if you can help it. 

It's like the Hellbringer.  Standing alone, it's a death trap.  However, on a well balanced star, its a powerful punch if you've got someone who can defend it. 

On the opposite end of the spectrum, theres the Hellstar.  It's a beast, end of story.  However, it would eventually succumb to superior numbers. 

So the Eisenfaust isn't going to go many fights alone and win.  It's not supposed to.  It's supposed to be a support mech on an assault lance.

[Savage Coyote]

Definitely. But if a 'Mech is bad, you are allowed to say so ;)
I still like it (otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to write this article). It has character :)

Oh I know, but I feel it has a few redeeming qualities.  There's worse out there though, and taken in context with House Steiner I think it works well enough.  Would I want to be the fire magnet?  Yeah, no!  ;D

[Wrangler]

Guess I have a pretty dry sense of humor 'couse I found this hiiiiiiilarious.

+3

I have on & off like for the Eisenfaust.  The Eisenfaust from the feel of it looks like its suppose to be a "Bad" mech design to have in the mix in TRO:3085.  Logically, the design should not have been put into production since its is out-classed by faster and more smartly designed 'Mechs (New and Old).   However, it is a WizKids' MWDA design and its been established in the timeline being still in use by the 3130s...why...I believe its because there wasn't alot mechs choose from after Stone's actions put blow torch put to alot of existing designs.

Anyways, a 4/6 machine still has its place in battlefield.  Eisenfaust could be put good use as a infantry support 'Mech for Battle Armor and Infantry units which are just about as slow as itself in many cases. The Plasma Cannon does nasty things to infantry, so does its duo of Pulse Lasers.    Even the original design, the EFT-4J, could be used to effect in this role.  Switching its ammo out for Flechette ammunition and say good bye to your standard infantry.

 

[StCptMara]

Thank you!

 Too many times people disregard a mech because it can't take on a full lance of IS mechs by itself and survive.Running alpha,running alpha,running alpha etc... Lances, mechs fight in lances,stars,LVL II's,centuries...there is nothing wrong with taking a bunch of sub-optimised mechs in a lance and to me, taking a few and winning,well, thats the stuff of legend.

Ever take a lance of 3025 Marik 'mechs against a Clan Star and win? That is beautiful! But, honestly, this is something I very
much see on here alot. Unless it has c3, most people do not seem to think of a 'mech in terms of what else would be with it.
Now, the Eisenfaust? I would field it to support infantry(An Eisenfaust and 3 squads of Fenrirs in a city, anyone?) or as an ambush
predator. Admittedly, my group does a lot of city fighting, or close combat fights, so...I do not see a problem with the Eisenfaust's
range..

[Col.Hengist]

Ever take a lance of 3025 Marik 'mechs against a Clan Star and win? That is beautiful! But, honestly, this is something I very
much see on here alot. Unless it has c3, most people do not seem to think of a 'mech in terms of what else would be with it.
Now, the Eisenfaust? I would field it to support infantry(An Eisenfaust and 3 squads of Fenrirs in a city, anyone?) or as an ambush
predator. Admittedly, my group does a lot of city fighting, or close combat fights, so...I do not see a problem with the Eisenfaust's
range..

 an Eisen and 3 Fenrirs in a city.....oh thats nice!  [drool]

 I actually don't see a problem with it's speed to tell you the truth. Yes, i love my fast heavies and mediums but i cut my teeth on the slower mechs from 3025. Tell me in a city that you need speed and i'll show you the mighty Urban mech. Out in the open, well, it's a slug. But it's a slug with some power that hits pretty hard for it's tonage. Long range weapons are just something to use until you get into melee range anyway.

 i really need to pick a few up and throw them into my Donegal guard unit.

[daeceg]

.... and i'll show you the mighty Urban mech.
 i really need to pick a few up and throw them into my Donegal guard unit.

Like a hand grenade??

[Col.Hengist]

Like a hand grenade??

 My Donegal Guards force is made up of slower harder hitting mechs and vehicles.

 My Lyran Guard force is made up of faster mechs with VTOLs,hovers and battle armour supporting

[Eldragon]

Pro-tip:  Most 'mechs don't fight alone

That said, I will have to try this one out, though I suspect it will fall into the roles I've already mentioned and have used in the past.  You can't have every single 'mech min/max or there'd really be no point

Mech's don't fight alone, but your wingman doesn't have to be fresh off the short-bus either. There are lots of better choices for less Cbills/BV2.

When the battle plan is let the assault mechs get all the attention, and let the little guy stick the knife in, There are many better choices than the eisenfaust for that role.

Seems like its a bad mech design through and through. Personally I can't stand mechs like that; A mech should be good at some kind of role, even if it is extremely limited. Firestarter and LAMs both excel at something even if they are bad at straight up mech combat. There is even a place for cannon fodder designs.

Every mech does not need to be min-maxed, but there is no point in making a mech that just flat-out minimized.  Thanks to the XL engine, it isn't even particularly cheap (cbill wise). So you cannot even use it as cannon fodder.

When someone asks "How best can you use the Eisenfaust?" and the best answer is: "Pair it with something much more dangerous and hope they don't notice the Eisenfaust"; That is a poor endorsement.

[Beukeboom Fan]

At the same time, player 2 is going to have the tattered remains of a Thunderhawk and an Eisenfaust against a 100% pristine Thunderhawk.

Its been my experience that you can take out a XLE 45 tonner with about 80-100 damage (sometimes more, sometime significantly less).  Unless your really unlucky, a Thawk can take A LOT more than that and not be in tatters.  Then the damage ratio has changed, and the side with 2 mechs is doing an extra 20-25 damage per turn, with significantly more hits for crit seeking.  Of course - YMMV, or you could get a headcap on the Thawk early and effectively end the game.

[Welshman]

This discussion reminds me of the Centurion discussion. When you have over a page of posts arguing about if something is effective, odds are some folks have found a use and others have have really bad experiences.

From a TRO perspective, it is a complete success. Any MotW that gets this much commentary must be a stand out design.

Didn't say a good one, just one that people notice.

[Weirdo]

So you consider it a win if it stands out because of excellence or if it's just a nail standing out and begging to be hammered down? :)

[Welshman]

So you consider it a win if it stands out because of excellence or if it's just a nail standing out and begging to be hammered down? :)

As a writer I consider it a win if it gets talked about. Like it or love it, it has character and gets screen time because of that.

[Savage Coyote]

Mech's don't fight alone, but your wingman doesn't have to be fresh off the short-bus either. There are lots of better choices for less Cbills/BV2.

*shrug* Of course, but I don't always get to chose what I pilot (re: events like the one where I was feeling a little hosed at running an Albatross (the original version) Initiate, and medium laser varient Hammer) and thats part of the allure of the universe.  If we (or cannon universe sources) could all choose Lynxes, Wraiths, and Starslayers, where would the fun be?  Of course, it's a whole different argument as to why there's so many designs in-universe, but it's not really for this MotW IMHO!

[Iron Mongoose]

As a writer I consider it a win if it gets talked about. Like it or love it, it has character and gets screen time because of that.

It's just as well to be loved or hated, so long as they're talking about you, right?

I might argue that there's screen time and board time.  Everyone knows mechs like the Hellbringer and War Dog and the SHS/ER PPC Panther, and people talk about them often enough, but its hardly common to see one in action.  A few wildly horendious mechs like the Charger 1A1 and the Urbie are so outragiously silly that people actualy take them all the time (and subsiquently argue that they're not actualy all that bad after all, when we all know in our heart of hearts that we wouldn't care so much if it wern't largely true), but I fear that while the Eisenfaust isn't even remotely close to being that bad, its hardly a stand out mech in the good department. 

At least its not likely to end up like the Hurcules.

[StCptMara]

It's just as well to be loved or hated, so long as they're talking about you, right?

I might argue that there's screen time and board time.  Everyone knows mechs like the Hellbringer and War Dog and the SHS/ER PPC Panther,

Funny story....when my PC group WAY BACK at the Start of our group's dealing with Jihad stuff was breaking out of a WoB Internment camp on Outreach, the 'mechs that were on the flatbed that broke them out of their execution were:
a Hellbringer Prime and a War Dog....Did you know that for 5 weeks of running and gunning, no chance to stop for repairs
or reloads, the Wardog NEVER ran out of ammo for that Gauss Rifle?(They both still have those 'mechs, BTW....)