Smoke Jaguar Domain

[joechummer]

They were well and truly corrupt. Have a look at  Impetus of War and the remainder of Twilight of the Clans.

I'd like to go on record to say that I don't think the Jaguars were TRULY corrupt or evil.  For someone to be truly corrupt they have to KNOW what they are doing is wrong and then continue to do it anyway.

If you look at things from the Jaguars' perspective, the atrocities (from the view of the culture of us normal, well-adjusted people from the 21st century) in their history are all mostly reactionary events to things that were perceived threats to their stability as a Clan, and the warrior caste was merely doing what they felt was the right thing for their Clan.

In Clan society, the warrior is king, and all other castes support the warriors.  If the lower castes get out of line, the warrior caste suffers for it, and thus the whole reason for the Clan's existence hangs in jeopardy.  Thus, if infractions by civilians aren't punished, others might do the same thing, and then soon the whole Clan will fall apart.

So, on Londerholm, the merchants revolted because they were being asked to give up their crops to help feed the warrior caste.  When they said no, they were punished.  Same thing happened on Atreus.  On Turtle Bay, their new "civilians" revolted, and they were punished in a more permanent fashion (and I'd like to point out, the WHOLE Clan did not order the bombardment of Edo, just the local commander).  Edo was NOT genocide; it was a punishment meant to make a statement, which it clearly did.

The only real problem (aside from our initial revulsion to the Clan cultural idea that civilian caste members are less valuable compared to warriors) is that the punishment the Jaguars mete out for these events seems to be a bit heavy-handed and unnecessary compared to modern common sense.

A truly evil group would go around belligerently and purposely killing people solely because they didn't like them or because they were different from them.  A truly evil group would round up innocent people and gas them or bury them alive or toss them out of an airlock for no real reason whatsoever.  The Jaguars fought their fellow Clans so often in Clan space mostly because they had few resources and few viable colonies for producing their own.  This might be seen as belligerent, but it was not without purpose: Trialing for resources allowed them to survive.

They may be seen as "bloodthirsty" with all of their bloodletting rituals and such, but that's just culture, and no one dies from those rituals unless someone takes it a bit too far and someone really gets hurt.

The Jaguars' main fault -- if it could be said as truly being a fault -- is that when an infraction calls for a paddle, they bring out a sledgehammer (because clearly they don't have any paddles left and can't seem to win any Trials for more  ;)).  And when an enemy on the battlefield calls for a scalpel, they bring out a double-bladed battle-ax (because they're fresh out of scalpels too).  I call this the "Lennie complex," where Lennie from John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men is so strong that if he picks up a rabbit to pet it, he will accidentally break its neck because he can't control his own strength and really doesn't know any better.

So yeah, the Jaguars were brutal, heavy-handed, arrogant, and generally unsavory characters as far as our modern sensibilities go.  But were they all corrupt and evil?  Not by a long shot.

[Guardsman]

It is not often that I can say that I agree with a Jade Falcon, and today will not be that day! I Guardsman of Clan Smoke Jaguar challenge joechummer of Clan Jade Falcon for Possession of reply #240. With what forces will you defend?

[joechummer]

You call forth a sacred Trial by combat to take possession of my opinion?

No need for Trial, my friend.  I will break my opinion in half and freely share it with you.  That way the opinion would still be yours, and even though our opinions would MATCH, we are simply agreeing with the situation not with each other, quiaff?

[Fear Factory]

Talk to the writers. Because novels are the bedrock of canon in their eyes.

The only time a sourcebook trumps a novel is if it, in an explicitly OC section, reveals that what a character thought was going on was wrong. Otherwise, novels.

Actually, I am wrong with that.

Truly conflicting information requires two or more omniscient sources ("Novel Fiction") to contradict each other, as only information presented to the reader in this way is invariably true. Omniscient descriptions naturally trump any information that is merely presented as a (possibly inaccurate) information within the universe. A conflict between in-universe sources ("Sourcebook Fiction") would be just that, proving that at least one of them must be wrong without proving any one to be correct.

More detailed information is generally held to trump more general descriptions. In cases where it is impossible to reconcile the conflicting pieces of information, the latest published information supersedes earlier material.

In summary, in the case of contradicting canonical information,

   1. Novel Fiction trumps Sourcebook Fiction;
   2. detailed information trumps general information;
   3. later sources trump earlier sources (see also Retcon below).

So I apologize. 

Still, I think when you are forming a game or defining an entire people, it is much better to base a character's acts on sourcebook information from a field manual than what a novel tells you.  A novel is going to tell you the perception based on one character's thoughts at that particular time.  If Trent had gotten his bloodname I dare say that he would have never declared the Jaguars as a corrupt Clan.  The story itself is canon, complete with the people and situation, but I really don't think it is safe to define a Clan based on one's actions, emotions and perception because of a situation the character is in.

And yes, Blood of Kerensky has some issues, but that is because it was written at a time when not all of the rules or information about the Clans had been set in stone. Hard to fault Stackpole for that, and since that one example has zero relevance to the Smoke Jaguars any way, it doesn't really aid your argument.

It shows that authors do make mistakes and some of these mistakes even get retconed into the universe (Vlad's Executioner obviously did not).  So I don't see how it doesn't aid my argument...  I just think it is silly how an author's POV can change a canon situation (effectively a retcon) even though it is an obvious mistake.

[Guardsman]

You call forth a sacred Trial by combat to take possession of my opinion?

No need for Trial, my friend.  I will break my opinion in half and freely share it with you.  That way the opinion would still be yours, and even though our opinions would MATCH, we are simply agreeing with the situation not with each other, quiaff?

I am a Warrior of Clan Smoke Jaguar. That which we desire, we take possession of. It is our way, quiaff?

Guardsman contemplates the full ramifications of the shared opinion and wonders if the Fidelis started like this . . .

[Stormfury]

Still, I think when you are forming a game or defining an entire people, it is much better to base a character's acts on sourcebook information from a field manual than what a novel tells you.  A novel is going to tell you the perception based on one character's thoughts at that particular time.  If Trent had gotten his bloodname I dare say that he would have never declared the Jaguars as a corrupt Clan.  The story itself is canon, complete with the people and situation, but I really don't think it is safe to define a Clan based on one's actions, emotions and perception because of a situation the character is in.

And if it were an isolated incident, sure, you could look at it that way. But the depiction of the Jaguars in the novels and sourcebooks is consistent and identical.

[Istal_Devalis]

The only real problem (aside from our initial revulsion to the Clan cultural idea that civilian caste members are less valuable compared to warriors) is that the punishment the Jaguars mete out for these events seems to be a bit heavy-handed and unnecessary compared to modern common sense.

The Jaguars fought their fellow Clans so often in Clan space mostly because they had few resources and few viable colonies for producing their own.  This might be seen as belligerent, but it was not without purpose: Trialing for resources allowed them to survive.

Kind of ignores the fact that even the other Clans thought the Smoke Jaguars overdid things, doesnt it?

Also, this was entirely their own fault.  They wrecked and saddled their merchant caste to such a degree that their infrastructure was a laughing stock compared to other Clans. It's one of the reasons the collapsed so completely once they started taking heavy losses.  It IS to their warriors credit that they maintained such a strong edge up until that point, even saddled with their economic issues, but it's completely their own fault.

[Guardsman]

That seems to contradict canon. I can’t remember the source, maybe one of the Tukayyid books or Invading Clans, but on Luthien, their losses were near total, yet three months later they had recovered, and were in a stronger position than they had been before the losses. They showed a remarkable ability to recover from setbacks, coming back stronger every time, right up until the Clan was annihilated.

Although said, I always kind of figured that the lower castes of the Smoke Jaguars were a bit of a mixture of Diamond Shark and Snow Raven. They thrived on meagre scraps, so they must have been creative, resourceful, and thrifty. Then again, whenever they needed something they didn’t have, they could just politely ask the Warriors, and the Warriors would grumble and at their next opportunity, which means whenever they felt like it, would include whatever the merchants or scientists wanted in addition to whatever they were trialing with.

If might makes right, and Clan Smoke Jaguar are mighty, then they must be right. And if they are not, want to fight about it? I thought not.

[Stormfury]

That seems to contradict canon. I can’t remember the source, maybe one of the Tukayyid books or Invading Clans, but on Luthien, their losses were near total, yet three months later they had recovered, and were in a stronger position than they had been before the losses.

My personal theory is that they were stripping the second-line and Homeworld units for materials and manpower to reconstitute those units, resulting in those formations remaining on paper but in actuality being barely, if at all, battle-worthy.

In any case, the losses at Luthien, Tukayyid, and over the eight years of constant raiding from the Combine ate into what meagre reserves the Jaguars may have had and left them unable to fill out their units effectively. Paul Moon's Cluster took a few losses and had to deactivate a Star and wait over a year for replacements in Exodus Road, despite being one of the most prestigious units in the Smoke Jaguars. That alone should show you how bad a position the Jaguars were in, let alone the constant reminders through the rest of the series that despite the brave face the Jaguars presented to the outside world they were hiding the truth of their dire state.

Although said, I always kind of figured that the lower castes of the Smoke Jaguars were a bit of a mixture of Diamond Shark and Snow Raven. They thrived on meagre scraps, so they must have been creative, resourceful, and thrifty.

Given how much effort the Jaguars went to in order to curb or outright eradicate those who displayed that kind of enterprising spirit, I really doubt it.

Then again, whenever they needed something they didn’t have, they could just politely ask the Warriors, and the Warriors would grumble and at their next opportunity, which means whenever they felt like it, would include whatever the merchants or scientists wanted in addition to whatever they were trialing with.

Nope. The Jaguar Warrior caste leaders determined what the other Castes were allowed to have. Disagreeing with them in any way, shape, or form leads to death for that individual, and quite likely all their friends, their family, and so on and so forth.

[Istal_Devalis]

That seems to contradict canon. I can’t remember the source, maybe one of the Tukayyid books or Invading Clans, but on Luthien, their losses were near total, yet three months later they had recovered, and were in a stronger position than they had been before the losses.

Invading Clans (Set in 3058) said they were in a pretty bad position, actually. "Both Khans are concentrating on bringing the Clan back up to their formidable fighting strength, but have met with little success.  Constant raiding...has left the Jaguars with only eight Front-Line clusters in their invasion force, fewer then any other clan save for the decimated ranks of Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf

This is 6 years AFTER Tukkayid.  It doesnt speak well of the Jaguars abilities to resupply themselves.

Operation Klondike's write up on the Jaguars notes:
This subjugation of their civilians would force the Clan to rely heavily on Trials of Possession to gain war materiel and genetic legacies, and the one attempt by the Jaguar merchants to establish themselves—the Londerholm Revolt of 2912—only resulted in more draconian restrictions.

[Guardsman]

Interesting note from Historical: Operation Klondike, page 129 says, “Yet despite the alliance’s efforts, rumours abound of Jaguar survivors who have pledged to rebuilt their Clan.”

[Stormfury]

Rumours abound. Smoke Jaguar survivors, much less those with the capacity or even will to do so, on the other hand, do not.

[Guardsman]

Rumours abound. Smoke Jaguar survivors, much less those with the capacity or even will to do so, on the other hand, do not.

What’s your source that refutes what was said regarding missing units, ships, personnel, and equipment referenced in the Dragon Roars, Twilight of the Clans Scenario Pack, and Twilight of the Clans novels?

[Stormfury]

Uhh, I'm going to go with "What the authors have specifically said about the Jaguars" on that one. You know, the links I provided a few pages back where they directly stated the Jaguars are gone and will never return?

The largest collection of known Jaguar survivors is reputed to have maybe two or three Clusters, no lower castemen, and a Warship. Then there's the POWs who go on to form the Fidelis.

The former do not even consider themselves Clan any more, much less Jaguars. They have renamed themselves "The Dark." The latter, as Blaine Lee Pardoe has said, are not and will not become Clan Smoke Jaguar.