Register Register

Author Topic: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?  (Read 9176 times)

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7856
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #30 on: 30 May 2012, 19:27:05 »
I liked it fine when 3050 came out, the Archer-4M was a great mech.

These days, meh, I don't go out of my way to put it on customs & only use it when it comes standard (See above 4M & 8M as well)

Most the time I tend to use indirect fire with my LRMs & most my units still have some L1 tech in them, so I find NARC & SG ammo types to be of more use.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7418
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #31 on: 30 May 2012, 19:36:59 »
I like it on the larger LRM launchers.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

500 is the number of Warships Now. 500 looks like it will stay for a long time.

Wildonion

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 682
  • I'm just a few onions short of a patch.
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #32 on: 30 May 2012, 22:28:35 »
Are you sure? It seems that Artemis V cab be jammed by using Guardian ECM. At least this is my impression from the description of the equipment in Tactical Operations.

You know, I see what you mean. In the fluff entry for Artemis V, page 282, it mentions that it is still susceptible to Guardian ECM, but without saying anything in the rules entry below it. Further, in the Angel ECM rules on page 279 it says "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM (see p. 134, TW), but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster
Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles." (Bolding mine) I had read that entry before and it implied to me that Guardian ECM did not stop Artemis V. I will take this over to the rules questions forums and figure out which is right, though I am betting Guardian ECM is capable of stopping Artemis V.

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #33 on: 01 June 2012, 02:42:24 »
You know, I see what you mean. In the fluff entry for Artemis V, page 282, it mentions that it is still susceptible to Guardian ECM, but without saying anything in the rules entry below it. Further, in the Angel ECM rules on page 279 it says "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM (see p. 134, TW), but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster
Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles." (Bolding mine) I had read that entry before and it implied to me that Guardian ECM did not stop Artemis V. I will take this over to the rules questions forums and figure out which is right, though I am betting Guardian ECM is capable of stopping Artemis V.

Per errata (no, it's not in the original book), Artemis V works like Artemis IV except where specifically noted otherwise. So yes, it's susceptible to Guardian ECM, its bonuses don't apply to LRM indirect fire, and so on.

Wildonion

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 682
  • I'm just a few onions short of a patch.
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #34 on: 01 June 2012, 18:12:43 »
Strange, I checked my Tactical Operations 3.0 Errata and couldn't find anything about the system in there. Thanks for the heads up A. Lurker!

mensa12345

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • FedCom Forever!!!
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #35 on: 01 June 2012, 18:39:38 »
Honestly, I never use it unless I'm playing some sort of scenario (and have no choice of mech, or can't customize).  I generally pull it out and add a ton of ammo for the launcher.  Most of the 3050 and beyond mechs that have it are so short on ammo that you probably do better by having 12 rounds of fire per launcher without the +2 on the missile roll than 6 rounds with it.
That which is Seen cannot be Unseen.

Beukeboom Fan

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 132
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #36 on: 01 June 2012, 19:31:23 »
It's a throw-away piece of tonnage, IMO. I can't think of a single 'Mech it truly improves. Kind of like the AC/5 in 3025.

Disagree strongly, at least before every other mech had ECM.    When A4 first came out - after double heat sinks it was one of the single largest "easy" upgrades available for LRM boats.   Signficantly inreases damage, for no increase in heat.  Or swap an LRM 20 for a LRM15 w/ Arty to save 1.5 tons, 1 critical spaces, encrease your endurance by 25%, and decrease the heat by 16%, for a neglible decrease in damage.

Like I said, the main issue is that you're HIGHLY unlikely to be able to take advantage of the benefits with the proliferation of ECM.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15709
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #37 on: 01 June 2012, 21:12:55 »
Of course, if there's too much ECM proliferation in your games, the obvious solution is to try playing with ECCM rules.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

TigerShark

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
    • MekWars: Dominion
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #38 on: 01 June 2012, 21:40:04 »
Of course, if there's too much ECM proliferation in your games, the obvious solution is to try playing with ECCM rules.

lol ECCM dedicated units for lame piece of equipment that lets your LRM-20 do 2 extra damage? ...I think the 1 - 1.5 tons can be spent elsewhere...
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

willydstyle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2080
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #39 on: 01 June 2012, 22:26:37 »
lol ECCM dedicated units for lame piece of equipment that lets your LRM-20 do 2 extra damage? ...I think the 1 - 1.5 tons can be spent elsewhere...

Well, if you're bringing ECM specifically for ECCM to protect C3 networks, then the happy side-effect of making artemis more viable isn't something to just throw away.

TigerShark

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
    • MekWars: Dominion
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #40 on: 01 June 2012, 22:33:08 »
Well, if you're bringing ECM specifically for ECCM to protect C3 networks, then the happy side-effect of making artemis more viable isn't something to just throw away.

Side effect is one thing. Specifically to protect Artemis, no.
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15709
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #41 on: 02 June 2012, 00:37:00 »
lol ECCM dedicated units for lame piece of equipment that lets your LRM-20 do 2 extra damage? ...I think the 1 - 1.5 tons can be spent elsewhere...

If you're that worried about maxing the efficiency of your units, why use anything but laser spam?

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

TigerShark

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
    • MekWars: Dominion
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #42 on: 02 June 2012, 01:51:40 »
If you're that worried about maxing the efficiency of your units, why use anything but laser spam?

No, I'm just not willing to arm my units with an ECM suite just to support another ton of tech. The Artemis isn't very good. If it were Artemis V or Narc, giving you -1 To-hit, that's worth protecting. A bonus to a cluster roll? It's not even a BIG bonus...
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

Terrion

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 61
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #43 on: 02 June 2012, 02:28:13 »
lol ECCM dedicated units for lame piece of equipment that lets your LRM-20 do 2 extra damage? ...I think the 1 - 1.5 tons can be spent elsewhere...

Upgrading from an LRM 15 to an LRM 20 is already 3 tons, 1 heat, and fewer shots for 3 damage. One ton for two damage looks pretty good in comparison, if you can reliably get the bonus/aren't using incompatible ammo.

martian

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8065
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #44 on: 02 June 2012, 04:24:14 »
No, I'm just not willing to arm my units with an ECM suite just to support another ton of tech. The Artemis isn't very good. If it were Artemis V or Narc, giving you -1 To-hit, that's worth protecting. A bonus to a cluster roll? It's not even a BIG bonus...

Narc doesn't get you -1 to hit modifier, only iNARC with Homing pod does.

RogueK

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 88
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #45 on: 02 June 2012, 14:18:31 »
Narc doesn't get you -1 to hit modifier, only iNARC with Homing pod does.

Or if you load your launcher with ARAD ammo. NARC counts as emissions for them. Experimental rules admittedly.

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #46 on: 03 June 2012, 00:38:32 »
I tend to grab Artemis IV more often than not when using a LRM 15 or 20, but it is still very much an expendable piece of equipment if I am running low on mass for more important things.  All other launchers go without with the occasional exception of the larger MML racks, although I really do not use them often enough to matter.

That said, I tend to use them very often because I am a big fan of ATMs which come with free Artemis IV, but that is not particularly relevant to this discussion.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #47 on: 03 June 2012, 04:38:26 »
Strange, I checked my Tactical Operations 3.0 Errata and couldn't find anything about the system in there. Thanks for the heads up A. Lurker!

It should be in there, actually. It's not new errata anymore, though, so you may have to look in the appropriate "full" or "previous" errata section of the document, not the "this is what changed since last time" one they habitually start with.

As far as using Artemis on my own units goes: I generally ask myself "how often am I going to want to use other ammo with this, and (for LRMs) how much time do I expect to spend lobbing indirect fire in the general direction of the enemy without exposing myself?" and go by the answer to that. Artemis IV/V is a straight-up easy-to-use firepower boost as long as it works and I have a steady supply of compatible missiles...but that's already all it does, and only on direct-fire missions at that. If that's what a given design is primarily intended for, fair enough; if I'm mounting missile racks mainly for the full "tactical flexibility" aspect, though, Artemis is as likely as not to turn into dead weight on any given salvo and I can get similar perks from using Narc/iNarc or TAG in conjunction with appropriate ammo from regular launchers on a case-by-case basis.

bakija

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 705
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #48 on: 03 June 2012, 10:02:48 »
I tend to grab Artemis IV more often than not when using a LRM 15 or 20, but it is still very much an expendable piece of equipment if I am running low on mass for more important things

An LRM15+Artemis IV is, on average, just about as effective as an LRM20, but lighter, cooler, and more ammo efficient.

-LRM15+Artemis IV: 8 tons, 5 heat, 8 shots/ton, 11.5 average missile hits per shot (12 hit on most likely roll), generating on average 92 hits per ton of ammo.

LRM20: 10 tons, 6 heat, 6 shots/ton, 12.7 average missile hits per shot (12 hit on most likely roll), generating on average 76 hits per ton of ammo.

So the LRM15+Artemis is saving you 2 tons, a point of heat, and probably a ton of ammo when you get one instead of an LRM20, and is going to do about the same damage in the long run. Yeah, ECM hoses you, but that is always a risk with the advanced electronic options.

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7856
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #49 on: 04 June 2012, 06:06:05 »
lol ECCM dedicated units for lame piece of equipment that lets your LRM-20 do 2 extra damage? ...I think the 1 - 1.5 tons can be spent elsewhere...
Its 4 Extra damage, not 2.


If it were Artemis V or Narc, giving you -1 To-hit, that's worth protecting.
As already stated, Narc does not give you a -1 to hit.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

TigerShark

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
    • MekWars: Dominion
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #50 on: 04 June 2012, 06:44:55 »
Its 4 Extra damage, not 2.

::shrug:: MIGHT be worth it on the LRM-20 in 2750 or some era where ECM is practically non-existent. Maybe. Otherwise... still. No.
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

Erkki

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 294
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #51 on: 04 June 2012, 06:54:59 »
I've found the Artemis fairly useful in online megamek campaigns like the Mekwars Legends where I've played in the FWL. As their typical opponents are Capells, Taurians, Magistracy, Steiner, WOB and FS, its pretty likely that an enemy force will no ECM and the occasional force that has it only has 1, max 2, Guardians, as that campaign doesnt have just the "state of the art" units, not even for the FS. Artemis is very useful on units like Archer, Apollo and Orion to get most out of those LRM15s and LRM20s. Sometimes when enemy has ECM you still only lose 1 or 2 tons on 1, 2 or 3 meks as nearly useless useless dead weight. Still works as crit padding to those ammo boxes. There are worse systems around!
« Last Edit: 04 June 2012, 06:56:42 by Erkki »

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7856
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #52 on: 04 June 2012, 07:01:58 »
::shrug:: MIGHT be worth it on the LRM-20 in 2750 or some era where ECM is practically non-existent. Maybe. Otherwise... still. No. 

Are LRM's even worth it to you ?

LRM20 = 10 Tons for 12 Damage (Average)  =  1.2 Damage/Ton
LRM20+A4 = 11 Tons for 16 Damage  (Average)  =  1.45 Damage/Ton
The Artemis part of that equation at 1 Ton for 4 Damage & 0 heat puts it up there as competitive with the ML in raw effectiveness,  ECM or no, that is saying something.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #53 on: 04 June 2012, 07:55:16 »
Are LRM's even worth it to you ?

LRM20 = 10 Tons for 12 Damage (Average)  =  1.2 Damage/Ton
LRM20+A4 = 11 Tons for 16 Damage  (Average)  =  1.45 Damage/Ton
The Artemis part of that equation at 1 Ton for 4 Damage & 0 heat puts it up there as competitive with the ML in raw effectiveness,  ECM or no, that is saying something.

If he is used to playing in games with a lot of C3 nets or Stealth 'Mechs then the Artemis would be mostly useless as there would already be a lot of ECM on the field which will virtually guarantee the system is jammed at all times.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

TigerShark

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
    • MekWars: Dominion
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #54 on: 04 June 2012, 08:08:46 »
Are LRM's even worth it to you ?

Sure. I generally dislike the LRM-20, but IDF is a fantastic tool for a lot of situations. Just because I don't think Artemis IV is worth a darn doesn't mean I feel the entire weapons system needs to be scrapped. This is especially true of Clan weapons, where LRMs are half the tonnage and it's more worthwhile to mount a second launcher or another ton of ammo over improving the cluster roll for one of them.

The point is that most Artemis-equipped designs aren't built for longevity. The ones who do have it could generally utilize its removal in favor of heat sinks, extra ammo, support weapons; anything but Artemis.

Not Artemis V, that's a different story.
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #55 on: 04 June 2012, 09:12:40 »
...
The point is that most Artemis-equipped designs aren't built for longevity. The ones who do have it could generally utilize its removal in favor of heat sinks, extra ammo, support weapons; anything but Artemis....

That would be a failure of the larger design, not a failure of the system.  It is perfectly possible to mount a LRM 20 with Artemis IV and three tons of ammo without sacrificing anything critical, especially with Clan tech where the LRM can cover short ranged combat just fine.  I fully agree that sacrificing critical things like ammo or sinks for Artemis IV is a bad idea, but there are plenty of ways to fit it into designs without screwing yourself over.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

garhkal

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4823
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #56 on: 05 June 2012, 15:43:01 »
For me its worth it if you have few launchers (and large ones) in the lance/company.  If you have lots of launchers, narc is better.
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15709
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #57 on: 05 June 2012, 17:46:12 »
The problem with that is 1) you have to hit each individual target on the opposing side with a NARC pod for it to work and 2) you have to find a unit that has a NARC launcher and doesn't royally suck.

The second problem is usually much worse than the first.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

Morpheus1975

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 228
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #58 on: 05 June 2012, 17:49:29 »
I don't think Artemis and MML's has been mentioned yet......Haven't tried it with an MML 7 or 9.....yet.... >:D

I like Artemis because personally in most tabletop games people don't bring a huge amount of ECM's and when they do they are typically on light mech that if I can target and take out early I have a big advantage.  I also don't play against people who go crazy with C3 because they know a few ECM equipped mech can render their networks useless. 

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15709
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Anyone else a big fan of Artemis FCS?
« Reply #59 on: 05 June 2012, 21:25:29 »
Artemis is pretty inefficient on MML pods.  First, it doesn't give a very significant bonus on the smaller cluster tables, and second the MML's big claim to fame is how flexible it is for using specialty munitions, which don't get any bonus for Artemis.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

 

Register