Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank  (Read 63460 times)

Weirdo

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #30 on: 01 June 2012, 11:26:34 »
Also, V-Flamers give you ammo options. Inferno is a likely one, but coolant can also be handy in certain circumstances.
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Demos

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #31 on: 01 June 2012, 14:19:02 »
IMHO the Manticore should be the yardstick for tanks, not the Vedette.
A solid, multi-purpose tank.
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Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #32 on: 01 June 2012, 14:24:27 »
IMHO the Manticore should be the yardstick for tanks, not the Vedette.
A solid, multi-purpose tank.

The problem with that is you cannot really measure in multiples of the Manticore the same way you can with the Vedette.  You would have to start using fractions and then things get messy.


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chanman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #33 on: 01 June 2012, 18:50:23 »
Also, V-Flamers give you ammo options. Inferno is a likely one, but coolant can also be handy in certain circumstances.

Or ranch dressing.

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #34 on: 01 June 2012, 19:41:36 »
Or ranch dressing.
Capsican Spray  :D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #35 on: 01 June 2012, 19:47:59 »
Vehicle Flamer in fusion powered tank!!? Does alternative require Heat Sinks?
As MS pointed out, yes, the PPC > Plasma swap uses the 10 basic.
And my goal was to free up the 3 HS from the ML in the front to make room for the extra ammo that the Plasma & MMLs would need.

Yes.  Plasma rifles, like PPCs, eat up all ten heat sinks by themselves.
Ammo using Heatsink needing, seems like a gimp weapon, but its just soo mean even w/ the negatives.

Also, V-Flamers give you ammo options. Inferno is a likely one, but coolant can also be handy in certain circumstances.
The V-Flamer is IMHO one of the most under used & under estimated weapons in the game.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #36 on: 01 June 2012, 22:50:49 »
Ammo using Heatsink needing, seems like a gimp weapon, but its just soo mean even w/ the negatives.
It still does 10 damage with only a slightly shorter range then the PPC, it's balanced

oldfart3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #37 on: 03 June 2012, 14:35:54 »

Perhaps one of the two finest Main Battle Tanks in the history of the game (the Patton being the other). The only thing it really needs to remain up to speed in the modern era is CASE for better crew survival odds. Which is easily done by losing a half-ton of armor, and compensating with ferro-fibrous.

The 3058 LPL main gun variant, while not bad as an urban "infantry tank" (despite still being a rolling bomb), isn't what the Manticore is about. It's a line MBT. That's where the tank "made it's bones" at.

The only two "modern technology" variants that tickled my group's fancy enough to become "standard" (in addition to the tweaked base model mentioned above), are the HPPC/LFE variant and the infamous "Ballista" version. The Manticore almost begs for a light fusion engine, and the HPPC variant makes good use of that relatively young engine technology. However, I'm not a big fan of the HPPC (would've preferred an ER PPC on this variant). But I can live with it, considering the hefty punch. The flexibility the MML offers and the AMS for defense is a nice bonus. Not bad for a ball busting tank.

The Manticore "Ballista" variant is a nasty ranged MBT, in my experience. And one of the few C3 equipped units that we run outside of fire support units and HK teams. Better armor, emergency supercharger, and serious considerations toward crew survival all thrown in would make this variant top tier, except for one issue: no defensive secondary weapons. But you can't win 'em all, I guess.

Other than in a few specialized roles, the other major canon variants don't see much play here at home. The C3 Master Computer variant is used when "Ballistas" on on the tabletop, usually mixed in with standard Manticores closer in for deception purposes. Which, I guess, would make it semi-common. The C3 Slave model is rare, used only in fire support units on occasion. The LB-X and RAC versions are likewise rare, despite being good MBTs in their own right. It's just that the Manticore was pretty much done right from the get-go, and only needed a minor tweak to keep it up to date (and even that isn't absolutely imperative if crew survival/intact recovery of the vehicle isn't a high priority in a campaign). A variant has to bring something serious to the table to warrant using it frequently in the MBT role, in my opinion.

Just my two cents worth.



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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #38 on: 03 June 2012, 17:36:31 »
The 3025 Manticore pretty much defines what an MBT should be in Battletech- it remains competitive at all tech-levels after it's introduction, it's well protected, has a useful ground speed and good firepower for it's size.


in other words, It works, and taking it is not a form of self-punishment.  Unlike heavier designs in the 3/5 class, it's not a bunker-with-a-few-guns, where movement is what you do to make your opponent's life easier.

Nor is it plated either in toilet paper, or engined with a mill that could buy a couple decent medium 'mechs by itself.   The Manticore is for the "Main Battle"-that is, it works even when you're not fighting from dug in static positions, it works even where there are trees and rubble and such, and it doesn't have to flank to climb (up OR down) a mild hill.  it works in cities, it works OUTSIDE cities.  It doesn't sit in a tiny bubble of "I can't reach you with my guns", nor does it wallow with that imbalance where it's easier for it to BE hit, than it is for it TO hit (see: every 3/5 design that ever ahem rolled off the assembly lines...)

It can actually advance.
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va_wanderer

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #39 on: 03 June 2012, 18:27:12 »
That it's tough to keep it's effectiveness balanced in light of new tech is a testament to it's effectiveness. There are a few tricks- swapping the launchers to MML's gives it more close-in throw weight, for example. Heavy or standard ferro are relatively inexpensive ways to toughen it up. But like precious few 3025-era designs, it manages to remain relevant on a later-tech battlefield.

That's saying a lot.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #40 on: 03 June 2012, 19:45:32 »
it works even where there are trees and rubble and such, and it doesn't have to flank to climb (up OR down) a mild hill.  it works in cities, it works OUTSIDE cities.  It doesn't sit in a tiny bubble of "I can't reach you with my guns", nor does it wallow with that imbalance where it's easier for it to BE hit, than it is for it TO hit
What drives over hills
And grinds right through 'villes
And blows down your neighbor's door
It's big, it's heavy, it's mean
It's ma~an ti~core, it's better than MAD- it's keen!

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SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #41 on: 03 June 2012, 20:12:40 »
The front has an OMI HighBurn medium laser.  You need heat sinks, which isn't great, but it does cover the PPC's range minimum acceptably.
That Laser adds 10 tons to tanks weight and 700K C-Bills to the price tag, when strategic game-play enters the picture it it worth it?

oldfart3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #42 on: 03 June 2012, 20:54:14 »
That Laser adds 10 tons to tanks weight and 700K C-Bills to the price tag, when strategic game-play enters the picture it it worth it?

Yes, it does. The Manticore's laser is a necessary compliment to the SRM rack, when defending against targets that don't crit easily.
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SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #43 on: 04 June 2012, 02:29:44 »
Yes, it does. The Manticore's laser is a necessary compliment to the SRM rack, when defending against targets that don't crit easily.
But the increased strategic movement costs are a real turn off, for me at least, I'd rather have it be 10-tons lighter and be able to field 2 of them then just one
The alternate method would be to use 2 MML-5's in place of the normal missile launchers, which is probably the better solution

Sami Jumppanen

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #44 on: 04 June 2012, 04:26:04 »
But the increased strategic movement costs are a real turn off, for me at least, I'd rather have it be 10-tons lighter and be able to field 2 of them then just one
The alternate method would be to use 2 MML-5's in place of the normal missile launchers, which is probably the better solution

You might as well go down to 40 tons and have a Myrmidon, but if not then Manticore is just fine.

Hellraiser

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #45 on: 04 June 2012, 04:57:26 »
That Laser adds 10 tons to tanks weight and 700K C-Bills to the price tag, when strategic game-play enters the picture it it worth it? 

10 tons ? 

How do you get 10 tons ?   

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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #46 on: 04 June 2012, 04:58:15 »
You might as well go down to 40 tons and have a Myrmidon, but if not then Manticore is just fine.
But the increased strategic movement costs are a real turn off, for me at least, I'd rather have it be 10-tons lighter and be able to field 2 of them then just one
The alternate method would be to use 2 MML-5's in place of the normal missile launchers, which is probably the better solution

Which goes back to the question of what you want in a tank, and where it fits your TO&E.  I personally LIKE the Myrmidon, it's a good unit, but...it's not hte all-arounder that the Manticore (3025 version) is.  The Manticore is a Heavy tank, for the Main Battle.  i.e. it covers a wide number of bases adequately with enough armor and speed that it's not going to hinder the ground offensive by having to flank just to keep up.

The Myrm (or lighter tanks in the same general category) is a faster ride, true-but it lacks the flexibility and toughness that you get with a Manticore-as would the design you suggest.  An LPL and MML 5's is just another city brawler-in a market choked with them.   There really aren't very many well designed MBT's out there.  (the 3058 Manticore is another 'yet another city brawler" mistake-more expensive than a Demolisher, with nothing to show for it but reduced damage and a slight increase in speed that is irrelevant for the static, close-range defenses it's designed for...)

In the Real world, Tanks are designed and rated by three base criteria:
Armor, Speed, firepower.

In BT, tanks have a fourth criteria that goes in...
Cost.

The Manticore sits on that four-legged range about evenly (3025 version, not the "Upgrade").

Good armor
Good firepower
Useful speed
Costs less than a comparable 'mech.

YES there are some defects-the bow-mounted ML, for instance *(FOUR tons, not ten-1 ton for the laser, three for the heat sinks) could be lost and the design wouldn't feel it, or be replaced by an SRM rack, vehicle flamer, or machine-guns, or a boost to the plating there, without batting an eyelash, or if you have money, swap it for C3 and a Beagle or somesuch, or a TC... but the point is, even with that defect, it sits in a rare class in Battletech: it works in ALL eras, from Star League to Republic, and outperforms most of its competitors in the four criteria;

A tank with better plating, guns, and speed is going to cost MORE, usually by LOTS.

A tank with better armor, guns and Cost, is going to be slower

A tank with better Speed and guns and cost will have thinner armor

A Tank with better armor, speed and cost will have less firepower.

This is what makes the Manticore such a good buy for...everyone.  at least, the ORIGINAL FIT Manticore (TRO 3026, accept no canon substitutes).

It sets the standard for an MBT, that is, not a "Massive Battle Tank", but a "Main Battle Tank"-as in one that is useful for all the roles one might logically USE a heavy class tank for, as opposed to most of its' competition, which only work well in one or two NARROW roles, or (as in the case of the Manteuffel) whose cost is so extreem that you can buy a good heavy battlemech at the same price-one that matches it on armor, speed firepower, AND COST with ease and without the motive crit problem.

There are VERY few tanks in the game that can show up in nearly any terrain that allows a tank to operate, in virtually all eras, and still grant their users a reasonable chance of success, even against "Technologically superior" opponents.  The Manticore is one of those rare units.  SPECIFICALLY the TRO 3026 Manticore.

This makes it a "Benchmark" unit-one by which subsequent designs can be judged honestly to evaluate their game-performance.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #47 on: 04 June 2012, 06:13:42 »
YES there are some defects-the bow-mounted ML, for instance *(FOUR tons, not ten-1 ton for the laser, three for the heat sinks) could be lost and the design wouldn't feel it, or be replaced by an SRM rack, vehicle flamer, or machine-guns, or a boost to the plating there, without batting an eyelash, or if you have money, swap it for C3 and a Beagle or somesuch, or a TC... but the point is, even with that defect, it sits in a rare class in Battletech: it works in ALL eras, from Star League to Republic, and outperforms most of its competitors in the four criteria;

The original quote was:

That Laser adds 10 tons to the tanks weight and 700K C-Bills to the price tag, when strategic game-play enters the picture is it worth it?
If you drop the ML you can replicate the Manticore perfectly at 50 tons instead. I.e. a 10-ton weight difference.

Personally I'd rather use the weight for a few MGs and more LRMs instead of making the tank lighter. I prefer using tanks as "second wave" forces offensively, so I'll just pack them in as cargo anyway.

Matti

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #48 on: 04 June 2012, 11:07:11 »
Though there isn't any official canon Tech Rating D ( = introductory level) variant, it shouldn't stop us players coming up with one (or several). Just take out MLaser, its 3 Heat Sinks, increase LRM to 15, add MG with ½ ton ammo or whatev, and roll with it.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #49 on: 04 June 2012, 13:12:37 »
Personally I'd rather use the weight for a few MGs and more LRMs instead of making the tank lighter. I prefer using tanks as "second wave" forces offensively, so I'll just pack them in as cargo anyway.
Hm. PPC, SRM6, LRM15?
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Matti

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #50 on: 04 June 2012, 13:29:00 »
Hm. PPC, SRM6, LRM15?
And MG with ½ ton ammo. Becouse LRM gets heavier, it will increase turret's mass by ½ ton. If LRM 15 is loaded with 2 tons of ammo, vehicle goes overweight if LRM is in turret. So LRM in front facing only with PPC, SRM & MG in the turret. Done!
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SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #51 on: 04 June 2012, 18:52:18 »
@Sabelkatten I'm going to start a new topic in Ground combat to continue this thread

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #52 on: 09 June 2012, 06:15:18 »
Which would be better, the bow ML or second SRM-6 and ton of ammo? They both weigh 4 tons

A. Lurker

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #53 on: 09 June 2012, 08:41:57 »
Which would be better, the bow ML or second SRM-6 and ton of ammo? They both weigh 4 tons

For purposes of a single engagement, probably the SRM rack. It doesn't guarantee that you'll land five points in any one spot per hit, but it does more raw damage on average and offers better critseeking...at least while ammunition lasts, but fifteen shots per launcher tend to go quite a way.

In the long run, though, the laser has the logistical advantage of never needing ammunition. That can be an important in-universe consideration if the tank is supposed to last in service for a while; it means you don't run up quite as high a bill for live-fire exercises, have an extra gun left to fire if ammo does run out in the field, and that if you have other units that need their own share of SRM goodness the same number of missiles will go further (and the tank will be less adversely affected if somebody decides it doesn't get any this battle because the big stompy robots should have priority).

That said...that's in-universe reasoning, i.e. first and foremost simple "fluff". Purely on the tabletop, if the same individual tank isn't ever going to matter again after the scenario anyway, you probably are better off with the second six-rack.

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #54 on: 09 June 2012, 08:49:28 »
It is also very much worth noting that the second ton of ammo opens up a lot of options for special munitions.  Infernos are the first choice for obvious reasons, but there are a number of other options that may also be worth bringing.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #55 on: 09 June 2012, 09:20:42 »
Which would be better, the bow ML or second SRM-6 and ton of ammo? They both weigh 4 tons

Wasn't there some thing about warranty being void if modified? If so, ML is much better.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #56 on: 09 June 2012, 13:30:59 »
I vote for larger LRM rack in place of laser: LRM 15 with 2 tons of ammo. If that is mounted in front arc only, turret could get MG with ½ ton ammo.

Another alternative for laser: Flamer
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #57 on: 08 August 2012, 20:17:51 »
Is there a 5/8 Manticore out there in canon ?

I was thinking of making one myself and didn't notice anything in my Vee files.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #58 on: 08 August 2012, 23:34:15 »
Is there a 5/8 Manticore out there in canon ?

I was thinking of making one myself and didn't notice anything in my Vee files.

Yes, they took out the medium laser, two tons of armor, the LRM rack, and cut the mass down to 40 tons.  Oh and gave it a new name, the Myrmidon.  ::)

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #59 on: 08 August 2012, 23:35:19 »
Any one an idea why we haven't seen an ERPPC variant of this?

 

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