Clan Warships - Who mans them?

[Hawkeye Jim]

Anyone trained as a mechwarrior or aerowarrior should know gunnery. It's probably not too much different no matter where the weapon is.

[Nibs]

Those who hold Galaxy command (or WarShip command) are the least likely to see combat. That rank is a mixed blessing; you're high in the command echelon, but your chances to add to your name are limited at best. If you have aspirations for a Khanship, Galaxy or naval command is pretty much the last place you want to be, as Star Colonels see more action, engage more with the troops, and are in general more likely to be elected to the Khanship.

For slots by caste, we know the military roles on ships are filled by warriors (The Hunters, Sword and Fire, Shadows of War, Endgame) and the repair/maintenance jobs are done by technicians (Exodus Road, etc).

In the second book of the Jade Falcon trilogy, Joanna's Broadsword is attacked and some crew are lost. Rather than giving their gunnery duties to other crew members, the Warrior caste on board are expected to take up the job.

The Snow Ravens elect only Galaxy Commanders and Star Admirals to Khanships, I believe, so there is a bit of a difference there.

As for the Twilight of the Clans series, it didn't really demonstrate much for warriors on the Ships beyond marines or the command position (or positions, if there is an XO)

[Jackmc]

Anyone trained as a mechwarrior or aerowarrior should know gunnery. It's probably not too much different no matter where the weapon is.

Actually the rules don't allow cross useage which sort of makes sense since a Naval Gunner takes his shot with no helm control where as a MW as a MW does and a ASFjock also does but has the advantage of multi-g thrusters to slew weapons around.  Where the distinction breaks down is with Dropships where you can have ASF-like acceleration and the DS pilot handling the guns.

-Jackmc

[Stormfury]

Yes, it was from A MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans.

Actually, there wasn't, game-wise. They maintain a seperate breeding program, but mechanically they were just an ASF variant, more akin to the Horses and Bears' Advanced Elemental track than a distinct phenotype.

It seems to me more like they just folded them in together and called it a day than anything else.

The Snow Ravens elect only Galaxy Commanders and Star Admirals to Khanships, I believe, so there is a bit of a difference there.

By tradition, yes. On the other hand, the Khan is essentially establishing their own line of succession as they appoint warriors to those positions and award the Order of the Raven. Plus they have a focus on ASF and naval warfare and a love affair with the associated phenotypes; in general, however, most of the Khans we know of were Star Colonels before being voted into that position.

As for the Twilight of the Clans series, it didn't really demonstrate much for warriors on the Ships beyond marines or the command position (or positions, if there is an XO)

We know that anyone who handled a martial role was a Warrior and anyone doing equipment maintenance was a Technician, and that Warriors made up the command staff.

Unsurprising, as even nominally civillian vessels have the same setup with regards to the warrior contingent.

[Jackmc]

Actually, there wasn't, game-wise. They maintain a seperate breeding program, but mechanically they were just an ASF variant, more akin to the Horses and Bears' Advanced Elemental track than a distinct phenotype.

Incorrect

The attribute thresholds for Naval bloodline characters - which replace those of the Fighter Pilot Phenotype - are...

Also

TOUR OF DUTY: SNOW RAVEN NAVAL OFFICER 
Clan Snow Raven affiliation only. Fighter Pilot or Naval Phenotype required.  ...

-Jackmc

[Stormfury]

... which is what I said. Mechanically and for lifestyle paths, they were an ASF variant rather than a distinct and different phenotype. In the interests of simplicity, they got folded in. Further supplements might change that, but the Naval phenotype is hardly a major part of the game.

[Jackmc]

... which is what I said. Mechanically and for lifestyle paths, they were an ASF variant rather than a distinct and different phenotype.

By that logic, the MechWarrior, Elemental and ASF phenotypes are all just variants of the Normal Human pheno rather than distinct and different phenos.

-Jackmc

[Stormfury]

Fighter pilots got STR-1, BOD -1, DEX +2, RFL +2 with the Glass Jaw and G-Tolerance traits.

The Naval Pilot phenotype get INT +1, DEX +2, RFL+1, STR-1, BOD-1 with the Glass Jaw and G-Tolerance traits.

The difference between the two is one point of Intelligence and one point of Reflexes, plus or minus a Life Path.

MechWarriors, Elementals, and ASF types, on the other hand, differ enough from the human norm to worthwhile.

This is for one phenotype, for one of the sixteen or seventeen Clans, of one of the thirty or so factions a character can come from. For the sake of brevity, folding them in with the standard ASF phenotype does not really strike me as that big a deal.

With regards to WarShips in general, they are rather like introducing chainsaws to a game of Scissors-Paper-Rock with the rule that chainsaws beat everything and you can use it to cut off your opponent's hands.

If there are too many WarShips around, every other combat branch- and BT is really about 'Mechs- become useless. It is recognition of that fact, rather than WOMG WE HATE TEH WRASHIPZ! driving their marginalisation. And, if nothing else, they go out swinging.

Kinda sucks to be the Ravens, but they are not one of the premier Clans, let alone factions. When AToW gets more supplements, they might get something then.

[Kit deSummersville]

Yes, it was from A MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans.

-Jackmc

That sounds like a supplement to the RPG. Do you think that there won't be any for AToW?

[Kit deSummersville]

And since we're on the subject, why do the Clans even bother with warships if most of the clans don't use them?

After what happened to the Jaguars, no one wants to risk them for mundane battles. Like the fine china, they just get brought out for special occasions.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yeah, do you want to be the Star Colonel that has to tell the Khan you lost a WarShip?  No thanks, I'll bid it away in all but the most dire circumstances.  After all, if you win with a WarShip, the aero arm gets more credit, because it will tend to overshadow ground forces.  Most commanders aren't naval guys, and they would want their own arm to be the 'arm of decision'.

[Jaim Magnus]

Call me crazy but I see the uses of ALL the branches.  WarShips have their uses, but so does the ground arm.  Even with multiple fleets of warships, we'd still need mechs.  Warships are only good for leveling planets.  You want to take a world (reasonably) intact, then you need mechs and infantry.  My two cents.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Warships are mostly useful for deciding who gets in or out of the system. With the exception of the WoB, most everyone else tends to keep them away from planets.

[Coyote_808]

Warships are mostly useful for deciding who gets in or out of the system. With the exception of the WoB, most everyone else tends to keep them away from planets.

I agree with Jim here.  Warships tend to be the bouncer to the bar.  You want in, you gotta be in the good with the bouncer.  If not, then you better be in for one hell of a battle.

[Diablo48]

Warships are mostly useful for deciding who gets in or out of the system. With the exception of the WoB, most everyone else tends to keep them away from planets.

I agree with Jim here.  Warships tend to be the bouncer to the bar.  You want in, you gotta be in the good with the bouncer.  If not, then you better be in for one hell of a battle.

I fully agree with this.  If Clan Snow Raven decides they really do not want you to get into a system there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.  Even with Clan honor, the ability to effectively refuse to allow a trial to happen is extremely valuable and was probably used when the Ravens felt the situation called for it.

[Fatebringer]

I've looked thru aToW and from what I see, if you want to work on a Warship, the "Base" Phenotype is Aerospace, then you adapt to either "Aerospace or ProtoMech" for ASF pilots, or to "Aerospace-Naval"  by using the Caste module that costs no points to select. This is where you gain the extra INT that the Naval Phenotype is known for.

I love that you get the "Compulsion/Arrogance" with the module. With that, you KNOW they don't feel that they've been downgraded. Perhaps that's just for us Ravens though ;)

In regards to Warships Command, anyone who holds an upper rank has expereince coordinating multiple units and could make a claim that commanding a Warship Crew is no different. I think for most Clans they give the most prestigous Bloodlines first crack at the position instead of any particular phenotype, but if they don't have the skill, then they get replaced. I liken this to the great knights and lords taking a crack at pulling out excalibur before Arthur got his shot ;)

Despite the Ravens having two dedicated, exclusive Bloodnames for Naval, not all the commanders we have are of those Bloodlines. Those that do not make Star Commodore or Admiral are probably still trying to prove themselves. We only have so many ships and I would assume the second best thing they could hope for is a good fighter group command from the deck of an assault dropship. ;)

Tactical Air Command Wings attached to Raven vessels can range from 10 fighters to more then 75 plus Dropships. The position of being the TAC Wing Commodore is still a good title. James McKenna was the Wing Commander aboard the Mountbatten and see how he turned out ;)

[Jackmc]

That sounds like a supplement to the RPG. Do you think that there won't be any for AToW?

Based n Herb's comments during the Beta where he said it was gone, yes.  I guess it could be argued that Herb was intentionally misdirecting, but based on past performance if Herb doesn't want to give details, he gives the standard answer, he doesn't lie about it.

-Jackmc

[Hellraiser]

I fully agree with this.  If Clan Snow Raven decides they really do not want you to get into a system there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.  Even with Clan honor, the ability to effectively refuse to allow a trial to happen is extremely valuable and was probably used when the Ravens felt the situation called for it.

Well I wouldn't say NOTHING you can do about it.
Space is a very very large place.
There is always room to maneuver around outside of the range of warships.
That said, yes, what you can do is make it VERY difficult to get a complete force to a planet that stays together.
Instead of say, a force with 40%+ losses in transit and scattered all over the planet is small clumps.  Which is what you get when forced to deal w/ a blockading fleet.

[Hellraiser]

Those who hold Galaxy command (or WarShip command) are the least likely to see combat. That rank is a mixed blessing; you're high in the command echelon, but your chances to add to your name are limited at best. If you have aspirations for a Khanship, Galaxy or naval command is pretty much the last place you want to be, as Star Colonels see more action, engage more with the troops, and are in general more likely to be elected to the Khanship. 

So, that is your opinion then, and not a stated canon fact from a sourcebook.
A Galaxy Commander can bid himself into action any time he wants.
For that matter a Galaxy Commander has more authority to START said action and not be considered out of line for picking a fight w/ the clan next door.

For slots by caste, we know the military roles on ships are filled by warriors (The Hunters, Sword and Fire, Shadows of War, Endgame) and the repair/maintenance jobs are done by technicians (Exodus Road, etc).

We know that command & marine positions are filled w/ Warriors and that the Marines are often testdowns.
So again, do you have something that says all gunnery positions are filled by Warriors?

In the second book of the Jade Falcon trilogy, Joanna's Broadsword is attacked and some crew are lost. Rather than giving their gunnery duties to other crew members, the Warrior caste on board are expected to take up the job.

So, all the gunners were lost so her Mechwarriors were the only ones that can shoot....... or...... There were so many losses that everyone w/ naval training was keeping the ship in the air and Joanna had her Mechwarriors shoot because that was the only way they might contribute.
Having a little context to the situation would help...as well as knowing exactly what she said.

By tradition, yes. On the other hand, the Khan is essentially establishing their own line of succession as they appoint warriors to those positions and award the Order of the Raven. Plus they have a focus on ASF and naval warfare and a love affair with the associated phenotypes; in general, however, most of the Khans we know of were Star Colonels before being voted into that position.

Could that be because there are more Star Colonels than Galaxy Commanders ?
And not because Star Colonel is a more direct path ?

Unsurprising, as even nominally civillian vessels have the same setup with regards to the warrior contingent.

So Merchant Caste Mammoths assigned to bulk food transfer to inhospitable planets also have Warriors assigned to man those few laser bays ?

[ColonelCody]

So Merchant Caste Mammoths assigned to bulk food transfer to inhospitable planets also have Warriors assigned to man those few laser bays ?

Why not? In the 1st and 2nd World Wars the US and British navies both used military personnel to man the weapons on the various merchant transports they were using.  The Liberty ships are especially noted for having split crews, as it was considered a really crappy assignment for a naval seaman to be put on a liberty ship as a gunner or radioman.

[ColBosch]

Based n Herb's comments during the Beta where he said it was gone, yes.  I guess it could be argued that Herb was intentionally misdirecting, but based on past performance if Herb doesn't want to give details, he gives the standard answer, he doesn't lie about it.

But it's not gone; it's just treated as a variant of the Aerospace phenotype - as it should be, given that it's only a handful of generations old and appears among just one Clan. There's more on the Naval phenotype than there is on the Manei Domini in AToW...

[Jackmc]

But it's not gone; it's just treated as a variant of the Aerospace phenotype

The pheotype is gone, that's inarguable.  Granted you can still make a "Naval Caste" character, BUT as there is no pheno prerequ. it isn't the same thing.

- as it should be, given that it's only a handful of generations old and appears among just one Clan.

By that logic, we shouldn't have a Seeker life module then.

There's more on the Naval phenotype than there is on the Manei Domini in AToW...

Which makes sense since when the info on MD was released, it was specifically said that they were not intended to be PC's (JHS:3072 p. 119).


-Jackmc

[Frabby]

I think it was something to do with feedback so that you knew you were stressing the ship.  After all, maneuvering too quick can damage the ship.  Even so, a strong and experienced helmsman could overcome the resistance and stress the ship to its limits.  Or, that was the idea.  I want to say it was in the Twilight of the Clans series, I'll have to see if I can find it.

Having read the quoted section in "The Hunted", there seem to be two possible answers:

1) The artificial resistance put up by the helm controls is a slight pressure to indicate to the helmsman that he's moving towards dangerous maneuvering, but doesn't physically resist by any significant force, or

2) the "artificial" resistance is actually the g-force produced by turning the ship. Depending on your position on a 700-meter starship, the artificial gravity you're put through depends on your distance from the center of the ship's mass and the point around which it is being turned. You're effectively looking at a centrifuge with an arm length of (up to) 700 meters. Anything's possible from effectively zero centrifugal force in the mass center up to possibly lethal force of dozends of g's at a given point 700 meters away.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The pheotype is gone, that's inarguable.  Granted you can still make a "Naval Caste" character, BUT as there is no pheno prerequ. it isn't the same thing.


By that logic, we shouldn't have a Seeker life module then.


Which makes sense since when the info on MD was released, it was specifically said that they were not intended to be PC's (JHS:3072 p. 119).


-Jackmc

Considering ColBosch's status as a member of the PtB, I wouldn't discount what he's saying so quickly.

[Kit deSummersville]

Considering ColBosch's status as a member of the PtB, I wouldn't discount what he's saying so quickly.

He's a Probie, though.  }:)

[Stormfury]

So, that is your opinion then, and not a stated canon fact from a sourcebook.

It fits the canon facts from various sourcebooks and novels.

A Galaxy Commander can bid himself into action any time he wants.

In theory, yes. In practice, we only ever see them do so during situations where more than one Cluster is present and some-one needs to keep everyone pointed in the same direction.

For that matter a Galaxy Commander has more authority to START said action and not be considered out of line for picking a fight w/ the clan next door.

As can a Star Colonel, established over multiple novels.

So again, do you have something that says all gunnery positions are filled by Warriors?

Aside from the fact that the Clans (aside from the Blood Spirits) outright refuse to allow non-Warriors to use any kind of weapon?

So, all the gunners were lost so her Mechwarriors were the only ones that can shoot....... or...... There were so many losses that everyone w/ naval training was keeping the ship in the air and Joanna had her Mechwarriors shoot because that was the only way they might contribute.
Having a little context to the situation would help...as well as knowing exactly what she said.

The situation was as I presented it. That was the context.

Could that be because there are more Star Colonels than Galaxy Commanders ?
And not because Star Colonel is a more direct path ?

Or it could be because of what I have already said, and because Galaxy Commanders are typically from the same generation as the Khans and the Clans have this Thing about age.

So Merchant Caste Mammoths assigned to bulk food transfer to inhospitable planets also have Warriors assigned to man those few laser bays ?

Yes. Books like Invading Clans, the Wolf and Jade Falcon sourcebooks, and others all state that due to issues in the past where civilian vessels attempted to take advantage of the autonomy they were offered to leave the Clan or cause other sorts of trouble, a Warrior contingent was permanently assigned to them.

Having read the quoted section in "The Hunted", there seem to be two possible answers:

1) The artificial resistance put up by the helm controls is a slight pressure to indicate to the helmsman that he's moving towards dangerous maneuvering, but doesn't physically resist by any significant force, or

2) the "artificial" resistance is actually the g-force produced by turning the ship. Depending on your position on a 700-meter starship, the artificial gravity you're put through depends on your distance from the center of the ship's mass and the point around which it is being turned. You're effectively looking at a centrifuge with an arm length of (up to) 700 meters. Anything's possible from effectively zero centrifugal force in the mass center up to possibly lethal force of dozends of g's at a given point 700 meters away.

No, the control yoke resists incrementally depending on the speed and angle of vector changes. They found that people would press the wrong buttons, and it is implied that a regular control yoke without resistance would subject WarShips to even greater maneuvering stresses.

[Fatebringer]

Herb's Standard Answer #1: If it works for your game table, the answer you seek is whatever you wish it to be.

People will see things as they want to. For the purpsose of the game I'm in, I'll continue to RP the Naval phenotype. To me, the Phenotype Aerospace = Aerospace, not Aerospace Fighter Pilot.

"Wow, that is a nice shade of burgundy!"

"It's RED!"

[Fatebringer]

A large part of Warship combat is pulling levers and pushing buttons on automated systems. As long as the orders come from the bridge, I'll let the technicians do their thing :P

[notworthy]  [whipit]

In regards to that "No Weapons" comment, you mean to tell me they don't let the Paramilitary pack arms? I'm just sayin, 90 warriors to defend a city, (1 Nova Trinary) aren't looking to police some thousands of workers. You give the tools to the people that need them. ;)

[Stormfury]

The Paramilitary and Police are a (reviled) Warrior sub-Caste, however.

[Jackmc]

Considering ColBosch's status as a member of the PtB, I wouldn't discount what he's saying so quickly.

With respect to Bosch, he'd not one of the TPTB which are developers ie Herb and Randall and possibly Welsh, though again no disrepect to Joel, but even that's questionable.


-Jackmc