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Author Topic: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?  (Read 31068 times)

billtfor3

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Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« on: 02 July 2012, 11:47:42 »
I was playing around with Heavy Metal Vehicle yesterday, and was thinking,"why are there no Helicopter Gunships in BT?"  I've used Warriors before , and think the LRM version is alright, and use the AC 2 pretty well for what it can do, but why no "EEEEEEP, QUICK SWAT IT!!!!" VTOLs?  I  made a cheese Warrior with 5 LRM 5s by changing out the SRM and AC 2, and switching from a ICE to a fusion,  I'm sure you can do a 2 LRM 10 one same weight specs.  Switching to a flying SRM 4 platform would be pretty fearsom as well, as 40 SRMs would be visious as well.

Thought, opinions, thrown objects welcome!
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #1 on: 02 July 2012, 11:56:16 »
Periphery Karnov.  140 rockets with one pull.
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cray

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #2 on: 02 July 2012, 12:06:38 »
Periphery Karnov.  140 rockets with one pull.

Not available in 3025.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

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Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

I am Belch II

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #3 on: 02 July 2012, 12:15:19 »
Not alot of firepower can go on a 30ton VTOL that's a ICE, and Fusion engine cost to much.
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #4 on: 02 July 2012, 12:23:02 »
In the 3025 era, the best gunship you could get would be a SFE VTOL with an LL or PPC.  But meaningful firepower means being in range of AC/2s and 5s, and flak ammo.  They're also going to be costly, and militias would be better off with a larger number of ICE Warriors.

Atlas3060

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #5 on: 02 July 2012, 12:33:29 »
Fragility, costs, resources, and fluff are the reasons why we don't have really powerful gunships in 3025.
Granted I haven't fully researched all designs within 3039 and before so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quite honestly what is a noble going to spend his money on: a bunch of throw away vehicles for the peasants to ride into battle OR that new set of armor for his own personal Warhammer?
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A. Lurker

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #6 on: 02 July 2012, 12:46:39 »
VTOLs can actually carry a fairly respectable weapons load, depending on how fast you want them to move and how much you're willing to skimp on armor given the universal rotor vulnerability. The catch may be mostly that the more of a threat you are, the more effort the opposition will expend to swat you out of the sky -- and while LB-X ammo hasn't been invented yet in 3025 and flak shells for standard ACs are listed as pretty scarce for the Succession Wars era in TacOps (technically available, but with a rating of F), there's not a lot of cover up there, it's potentially a good bit of a way to the ground, and the closer you have to get to use your own weapons, the more can be pointed back at you in turn (and not just by your target, either).

Consider: In this era, the only weapon that outranges the common long-range missile is the AC/2. Anything else you may want to use as a main gun, even LRMs of your own, puts you at immediate risk of attention from your enemy's missile boats right there.

billtfor3

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #7 on: 02 July 2012, 13:03:15 »
Anyone available with a program that will give BV2 and cost for the Warrior mod I made?  Simple switch from ICE to SFE move still 10/15.  Pull all weapons and fit with LRMs to taste for one variant, and SRM 4s for another.  Lastly add 1 ton armor bringing the front to 12 sides to 8 I believe it was.
SGT Mark McKinnon, Recon Lance McKinnon's Company, 7th Crusis Lancers, Federated Suns



AWAD

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #8 on: 02 July 2012, 13:41:32 »
I was playing around with Heavy Metal Vehicle yesterday, and was thinking,"why are there no Helicopter Gunships in BT?"  I've used Warriors before , and think the LRM version is alright, and use the AC 2 pretty well for what it can do, but why no "EEEEEEP, QUICK SWAT IT!!!!" VTOLs?  I  made a cheese Warrior with 5 LRM 5s by changing out the SRM and AC 2, and switching from a ICE to a fusion,  I'm sure you can do a 2 LRM 10 one same weight specs.  Switching to a flying SRM 4 platform would be pretty fearsom as well, as 40 SRMs would be visious as well.

Thought, opinions, thrown objects welcome!

Because the old VTOL rules made them impossible to field. High chance to hit the rotor and they took full damage from weapons. Down you went. Also the weapons systems of Battletech just did not lend to that idea. But it is easy to make some and say they are fielded by some militia unit. I do not hold back on vehicles, especially ICE. Those things would be made all over the place.

AWAD- AC20 on a VTOL, honestly never tried it
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A. Lurker

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #9 on: 02 July 2012, 13:57:08 »
AWAD- AC20 on a VTOL, honestly never tried it

It's doable. You'll need a fusion engine, and you won't really be going faster than 8/12, and you'll have to to some extent choose between carrying ammo or armor (though in retrospect I suppose five shots would be plenty for this kind of unit). But you can in fact build it with intro-level tech.

How much of a success it'd prove to be against an opponent smarter than the MegaMek bot, now... ;)

Jayof9s

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #10 on: 02 July 2012, 13:58:06 »
AWAD- AC20 on a VTOL, honestly never tried it

I'm pretty sure there's a Warrior variant with an Arrow IV so an AC20 should fit. I forget what needed done to fit an Arrow IV but I suspect it involved and XL engine, so it may be tough to do in 3025.

As for the question in general - I think the best mods require a SFE and those were pretty rare in the time frame. And since (according to some random fluff quote I'm remembering) VTOLs suffer higher casualty rates than any other combat unit I don't see the armies of the IS keeping around too many when those fushion engines could be crammed into something more durable.

That said, I do still enjoy a good squadron of Warriors. Assuming you're fighting mostly regular pilots they can be nearly impossible to shoot down if you keep them in the right range bands and keep the movement modifiers high enough and people rarely feel the need to chance a 10+ on a unit with an AC2 and SRM4 when they can hit that Warhammer in front of them with just a 6+.

Brother Jim

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #11 on: 02 July 2012, 14:05:40 »
I get 570 BV2 and 668,100 CB's with changing an H-7 to fusion, adding a ton of armor as asked and replacing all weapons with 4 LRM5's and a ton of ammo. I also removed fractional accounting.
FYI, changing the engine and increasing the armor leaves 9 tons for stuff.

I get 513 BV2 and 860,000 CB's with 4 SRM4's and a ton of ammo instead of LRM's.

A LL, LRM5 and 2 tons of ammo is 556 BV2 and 736,100 CB's.

Brother Jim

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #12 on: 02 July 2012, 14:22:34 »
I got an AC-20 to fit on a 3025 Karnov, but it had to slow down to 8/12. It went back to normal speed using an XL engine.

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #13 on: 02 July 2012, 14:29:21 »
That Karnov would be interesting in double blind play, but probably not something I'd want to depend on.

CrossfirePilot

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #14 on: 02 July 2012, 14:44:10 »
Also fluff wise in 3025 Fusion Engines were things for mechs only for the most part.  Old tanks with them in had them removed to repair Mechs.

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #15 on: 02 July 2012, 14:44:51 »
I'm pretty sure there's a Warrior variant with an Arrow IV so an AC20 should fit. I forget what needed done to fit an Arrow IV but I suspect it involved and XL engine, so it may be tough to do in 3025.

Nope, that's a variant of the Yellow Jacket.

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billtfor3

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #16 on: 02 July 2012, 14:50:36 »
Also fluff wise in 3025 Fusion Engines were things for mechs only for the most part.  Old tanks with them in had them removed to repair Mechs.

By 3025 there were a few new Vehicles that had SFE, Rommell/Pattons, so why not have some company making VTOL refit kits?
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Weirdo

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #17 on: 02 July 2012, 14:52:58 »
Those were brand-new tank built for front-line combat by the richest house in the IS, and as I recall, they still caused a lot of grumbling among their financiers. VTOLs tend to rank even lower than tanks as far as procurement goes; I doubt you'd see any fusion birds before the Helm data well and truly proliferated.
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billtfor3

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #18 on: 02 July 2012, 15:04:51 »
Like the Tanks, I can see the Lyrans doing it....
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Weirdo

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #19 on: 02 July 2012, 15:20:12 »
I'm unconvinced, seeing the Rommel/Patton series as the exception, not the start of a trend. Okay, the release of the Helm core and other tech advancements made it a trend in the end, but I'm of the opinion that if the Houses hadn't gotten their tech boosted like that, fusion vehicles would have continued to become increasingly rare, even for the Lyrans.

In the end, it's a matter of opinion, as neither of us can be truly proven right.
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A. Lurker

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #20 on: 02 July 2012, 15:28:41 »
Like the Tanks, I can see the Lyrans doing it....

Fusion-powered VTOL carrying an AC/20?

Feels Lyran enough to me. Or would if we could make it weigh twice as much and still have it work. ;)

(Unfortunately, superheavy combat vee options don't really become any more helpful in that regard than standard construction unless you drop the speed even further. By my count, an 8/12 fusion-powered VTOL just never actually has even as much free tonnage from 31-60 tons as it does at 30, and even if you go to 7/11 the first time you get an extra half ton out of it is at 51 tons overall. And remember, with superheavies you have those extra two locations to armor as well, so even that is potentially still a net loss...)

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #21 on: 02 July 2012, 15:33:41 »
Well, if one uses the rules for VTOL external ordnance, all sorts of neat things can be added "underwing"...

House Davie Merc

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #22 on: 02 July 2012, 15:46:49 »
Because Battletech is supposed to be a game where the big stompy
robots are the star of the show .

In game VTOLs are pretty easy to make munchy . SUPER munchy .

IMHO in BV 2 they should have been WAY more expensive .

Also if you're using BV2 and are playing a game where people haven't already
banned the use of VTOLS -then for the C-Bill cost and for the BV 2 cost I'll take
the Ferret Armored variant over any VTOL  in 3025 .

For 103 BV points you've got a MG toting pest that can fly 15/23 .

For the low low cost of 202 BV you can have the up armored Ferret with a 2/2 pilot .

My favorite is a team of 2 Armored Ferrets with 2/2 pilots .

They can go about anywhere RIGHT NOW , with 2/2 pilots they
don't have to worry about sideslipping , they can eliminate infantry
from their long range bracket of 3 hexes , they can backstab targets of opportunity,
and they can take down Warrior VTOLs from behind with great consistency .

Pretty good for a 5 tonner .

Diablo48

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #23 on: 02 July 2012, 16:38:11 »
Because Battletech is supposed to be a game where the big stompy
robots are the star of the show .

In game VTOLs are pretty easy to make munchy . SUPER munchy .

IMHO in BV 2 they should have been WAY more expensive .

Also if you're using BV2 and are playing a game where people haven't already
banned the use of VTOLS -then for the C-Bill cost and for the BV 2 cost I'll take
the Ferret Armored variant over any VTOL  in 3025 .

For 103 BV points you've got a MG toting pest that can fly 15/23 .

For the low low cost of 202 BV you can have the up armored Ferret with a 2/2 pilot .

My favorite is a team of 2 Armored Ferrets with 2/2 pilots .

They can go about anywhere RIGHT NOW , with 2/2 pilots they
don't have to worry about sideslipping , they can eliminate infantry
from their long range bracket of 3 hexes , they can backstab targets of opportunity,
and they can take down Warrior VTOLs from behind with great consistency .

Pretty good for a 5 tonner .

Then I light it up with a LBX AC or HAG from one of my 'Mechs which it cannot hope to hurt and watch it crash and burn.


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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #24 on: 02 July 2012, 16:48:41 »
Then I light it up with a LBX AC or HAG from one of my 'Mechs which it cannot hope to hurt and watch it crash and burn.

I didn't know that either of those two items were available in 3025?

A. Lurker

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #25 on: 02 July 2012, 16:54:55 »
Then I light it up with a LBX AC or HAG from one of my 'Mechs which it cannot hope to hurt and watch it crash and burn.

Which you don't have in 3025, and this thing can build up a +6 to-be-hit modifier just from movement.

That said, in order to hit anything in turn, this thing has to be within at most 3 hexes of its target. Unless it manages to always hit just the right dead spot of a victim that has no friends nearby at the moment, that means range modifiers at least won't be much of a concern for most counterattacks, negating part of its mobility advantage again. And once you finally bring it down, that's one less hotshot 2/2 pilot working for the enemy...

Weirdo

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #26 on: 02 July 2012, 17:02:25 »
LB-Xs and HAGs aren't around in that time period, but flak AC ammo is. Won't get rid of all the speed bonuses, but certainly puts a healthy dent in that TMM.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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A. Lurker

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #27 on: 02 July 2012, 17:13:31 »
LB-Xs and HAGs aren't around in that time period, but flak AC ammo is. Won't get rid of all the speed bonuses, but certainly puts a healthy dent in that TMM.

Well...as I said upthread, flak ammo's notionally scarce in this era. But if you can get your hands on it (or just quietly think it really should be more common after all), then sure, that's another handy -2. :)

Weirdo

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #28 on: 02 July 2012, 17:17:00 »
...(or just quietly think it really should be more common after all)

Given that I've never heard of any references describing flak ammo as rare, put me in this category.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

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Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #29 on: 02 July 2012, 17:25:58 »
Well, if one uses the rules for VTOL external ordnance, all sorts of neat things can be added "underwing"...
Where are these rules?

 

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