Register Register

Author Topic: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?  (Read 29915 times)

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32983
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #30 on: 02 July 2012, 17:26:47 »
TacOps. You know, the happy book of "Yes, you can do that." 8)
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #31 on: 02 July 2012, 17:33:21 »
TacOps. You know, the happy book of "Yes, you can do that." 8)

AKA: the book Weirdo should never be allowed to use. ;)


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32983
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #32 on: 02 July 2012, 17:34:31 »
No, that's StratOps. >:D
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

AWAD

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 48
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #33 on: 02 July 2012, 17:36:02 »
I got an AC-20 to fit on a 3025 Karnov, but it had to slow down to 8/12. It went back to normal speed using an XL engine.

Dude, make that rear firing and just have it for fun. Think as some local lord or something had a problem and an AC/20 to spare and a few Karnovs. As it comes in the enemy ignores it, then it flies by uleashing some hurt.  Just seems like fun, not practical or tactical, but one of those true Battletech moments though.

AWAD- Do what? what just happened to the Panther, it is a pile of goo, lock in on that Karnov, Really?
Real Men Drive Locusts

Adjust, Adapt, Overcome, or be Crushed

Fallen_Raven

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3578
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #34 on: 02 July 2012, 17:37:05 »
LB-Xs and HAGs aren't around in that time period, but flak AC ammo is. Won't get rid of all the speed bonuses, but certainly puts a healthy dent in that TMM.

Or you use Artillery as an AA option (still pretty rare at the time, but not unreasonable for a large unit). If that doesn't convince VTOLS to be elsewhere, I doubt much will.

Of course the best deterrent to VTOLs in 3025 was probably Aerospace fighters, which seem to be more common than VTOLs in the first place.
Subtlety is for those who lack a bigger gun.

The Battletech Forums: The best friends you'll ever fire high-powered weaponry at.-JadeHellbringer


House Davie Merc

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 889
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #35 on: 02 July 2012, 18:28:30 »
Which you don't have in 3025, and this thing can build up a +6 to-be-hit modifier just from movement.

That said, in order to hit anything in turn, this thing has to be within at most 3 hexes of its target. Unless it manages to always hit just the right dead spot of a victim that has no friends nearby at the moment, that means range modifiers at least won't be much of a concern for most counterattacks, negating part of its mobility advantage again. And once you finally bring it down, that's one less hotshot 2/2 pilot working for the enemy...

If you're using a VTOL with a 15/23 movement profile and you stop where the enemy has a shot
at you then you're doing it wrong .
For a Ferret a "Target of Opportunity"  is one that can't hit it and/or has completely breeched armor ,
a shut down engone,knocked out pilot, , or a vehicle with a stunned crew .

Ever have a fantastic sitting duck target that all you really need is ANY amount of damage to force a crit
roll or get a chance for a head hit , but you just can't get their in time ?
At 15/23 you  can usually make it in time .

I see a lot of posts about ways to deal with the Ferret .
The problem is that most players RARELY use those items and specialty ammo can limit
the effectiveness of a units weapons for other uses .

If my 2 Ferrets with 2/2 pilots costs 404 BV and my opponent feels it necessary to
field a 4/5 Jagermech with specialty ammo that costs 901 BV  then I would say they've been
well worth their cost .
Even more so if they improve the Jag's gunnery skill to make hitting the Ferrets more practical .

Another benefit is  if the other side plans on using infantry as indirect fire spotters 2 Ferrets
will eliminate a ground platoon quickly while remaining difficult for the infantry to hit .
Between their to-hit mods and the minimum range of LRMs lone LRM carriers are EASY
targets .   ( Even if it's only 2 damage a round it can still immobilize them)

All those capabilities for 404 BV is a deal .   

That's why so many players that I know have banned them .
« Last Edit: 02 July 2012, 18:31:39 by House Davie Merc »

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #36 on: 02 July 2012, 18:36:39 »
I see a lot of posts about ways to deal with the Ferret .
The problem is that most players RARELY use those items and specialty ammo can limit
the effectiveness of a units weapons for other uses .

I only mentioned things I am usually bringing anyways because they are good for more than just VTOLs.  I usually have at least one 5-X or HAG in my forces for long range critseeking, and failing that there is also the LPL which deals with all fast movers.  When you combine this with the normal 2 gunners you find in Clan forces swatting Ferrets is really not a big deal.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 20619
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #37 on: 02 July 2012, 21:33:10 »
It's doable. You'll need a fusion engine, and you won't really be going faster than 8/12, and you'll have to to some extent choose between carrying ammo or armor (though in retrospect I suppose five shots would be plenty for this kind of unit). But you can in fact build it with intro-level tech.

How much of a success it'd prove to be against an opponent smarter than the MegaMek bot, now... ;)

Did this years ago as part of my Camlann Militia regiment ...



LB-20X with one ton cluster ammo, 8/12 speed. Yes, totally ridiculous, but having one of these hovering behind a hill did produce a high level of caution from slower tanks. As soon as you got a flanker around to face it, though, it usually ended in tears (often for both sides) ;)

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Failure16

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 433
  • Somebody had to say it...
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #38 on: 02 July 2012, 21:53:58 »
I only mentioned things I am usually bringing anyways because they are good for more than just VTOLs.  I usually have at least one 5-X or HAG in my forces for long range critseeking, and failing that there is also the LPL which deals with all fast movers.  When you combine this with the normal 2 gunners you find in Clan forces swatting Ferrets is really not a big deal.

And again, that is all gear that is not available in a 3025-era game (or, shall we say, an Introductory Tech Level game to silence potential smart-alecks?).  I get that you possibly mostly or only play Clan forces; this is fine...but that doesn't mean that in a 3025, Inner Sphere scenario you could continue to do so.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                                 chasing visions of our futures.
     when I needed something good.                                             One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        that one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7644
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #39 on: 02 July 2012, 22:00:28 »
A flying crane with a huge gun, sounds like a good plan.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

500 is the number of Warships Now. 500 looks like it will stay for a long time.

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #40 on: 03 July 2012, 00:55:54 »
Nope, that's a variant of the Yellow Jacket. 

Actually, there is a Karnov RS now w/ AC20 & another w/ Thumper.

There is also the actual labeled Karnov-Gunship with 8MG's

There were several nice models in a Battletechnology magazine articles about Vtol Gunships, even had rules for Vtol strafing attacks.

I make an L1 Gunship w/ PPC & Quad MG's after reading that article,  it was pretty brutal.
« Last Edit: 03 July 2012, 09:51:57 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #41 on: 03 July 2012, 02:15:17 »
Given that I've never heard of any references describing flak ammo as rare, put me in this category.

It has an availability code of E-F-F. Will that do?

If you're using a VTOL with a 15/23 movement profile and you stop where the enemy has a shot
at you then you're doing it wrong .

Well, if it never gets close enough to take a shot itself except under perfect circumstances that might come up once or twice a game, then it's not much of a threat in the first place, now is it? ;) (Other than perhaps in its capacity as a spotter, but that's not what we were talking about.)

mutantmagnet

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 710
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #42 on: 03 July 2012, 05:48:19 »
In the 3025 era, the best gunship you could get would be a SFE VTOL with an LL or PPC.  But meaningful firepower means being in range of AC/2s and 5s, and flak ammo.  They're also going to be costly, and militias would be better off with a larger number of ICE Warriors.

That's not true. You can equip a VTOL in 3025 with artillery or artillery cannons. The art cannons would put you in range of everything but if you use a Thumper you have the option of getting out of range of AC flak fire or bum rushing an enemy position and raining death.

As others have mentioned you can also equip an AC 20.

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2037
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #43 on: 03 July 2012, 06:47:22 »
Take a Warrior. Replace the AC/2 and ammo with 3 additional SRM-4 and 1 additional ton of SRM-4 ammo. Load up regular and inferno ammo, half and half.

Great for killing vehicles, great for shutting down mechs, especially heat-intensive ones. And with useful terrain around, the short range isn´t that much of an issue.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Ian Sharpe

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2139
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #44 on: 03 July 2012, 07:07:15 »
That's not true. You can equip a VTOL in 3025 with artillery or artillery cannons. The art cannons would put you in range of everything but if you use a Thumper you have the option of getting out of range of AC flak fire or bum rushing an enemy position and raining death.

As others have mentioned you can also equip an AC 20.

I like the AC/20 but my experience with short-range VTOLs says they die.  The artillery idea is better for the way I play VTOLs, since I use regular crews and expect them to come back.  But short of rare fusion engines, its going to be slow and prey for Warriors.  Elite Ferrets kill any other VTOL anyway, so I won't worry too much about them.  If you're breaking out SFEs for VTOLs though, I'd expect to see flak ammo too. 

Slade, The Grey Fox

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 495
    • My FanFic Page
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #45 on: 03 July 2012, 09:26:39 »
The biggest problem for VTOLs is that they are not combat effective.  First of all, the game is about BattleMechs, so all other units take a secondary consideration.  Secondly, in the ranking of ground firepower, it goes BattleMech, Tank, VTOL, BA, Infantry with a few exceptions and excluding Orbital Bombardment completely.  Thirdly, if you look at the tactics of helicopter gunships in today's military NONE of them go head to head with the enemy.  They always are there for support either in a spotter role, or light attack role.  That right there should key in on why there were no gunships in 3025.  No one wanted to waste money on arming what was nothing more than a recon bird that had very little in the way of protection.

Now, this is not to say that someone could not effectively utilize a few armed VTOLs in a game to keep their opponent off balance but in a larger battle or planetary conquest they would not be delegated to frontline combat but rather flanking units and scouts to find the enemy and coordinate counter attacks, and arty.
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."
"Slavish adherence to ritual is a sign one has nothing better to do" - Natasha Kerensky

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #46 on: 03 July 2012, 09:37:37 »
Take a Warrior. Replace the AC/2 and ammo with 3 additional SRM-4 and 1 additional ton of SRM-4 ammo. Load up regular and inferno ammo, half and half.

Great for killing vehicles, great for shutting down mechs, especially heat-intensive ones. And with useful terrain around, the short range isn´t that much of an issue.

Problem is that if SRMs are the primary armament, coming in for a strike puts it in range of the target's own SRMs and MLs, which are bad news for a helo.

billtfor3

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 906
  • Smashing Liao and Kurita since 3025!
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #47 on: 03 July 2012, 09:45:57 »
The biggest problem for VTOLs is that they are not combat effective.  First of all, the game is about BattleMechs, so all other units take a secondary consideration.  Secondly, in the ranking of ground firepower, it goes BattleMech, Tank, VTOL, BA, Infantry with a few exceptions and excluding Orbital Bombardment completely.  Thirdly, if you look at the tactics of helicopter gunships in today's military NONE of them go head to head with the enemy.  They always are there for support either in a spotter role, or light attack role.  That right there should key in on why there were no gunships in 3025.  No one wanted to waste money on arming what was nothing more than a recon bird that had very little in the way of protection.

Now, this is not to say that someone could not effectively utilize a few armed VTOLs in a game to keep their opponent off balance but in a larger battle or planetary conquest they would not be delegated to frontline combat but rather flanking units and scouts to find the enemy and coordinate counter attacks, and arty.

No offense, but the Apache, and the Hind are attack helos that put the pucker factor up in Armored Forces especially. 

From Wiki
An attack helicopter is a military helicopter with the primary role of an attack aircraft, with the capability of engaging targets on the ground, such as enemy infantry and armored vehicles. Due to their heavy armament they are sometimes called helicopter gunships.

Weapons used on attack helicopters can include autocannons, machine-guns, rockets, and guided missiles such as the Hellfire. Many attack helicopters are also capable of carrying air to air missiles, though mostly for purposes of self-defense. Today's attack helicopter has two main roles: first, to provide direct and accurate close air support for ground troops, and the second, in the anti-tank role to destroy enemy armor concentrations. Attack helicopters are also used to supplement lighter helicopters in the armed scout role. In combat, an attack helicopter is projected to destroy around 17 times its own production cost before it is destroyed.

Sounds pretty combat effective to me with those projections.  I know that R/L has no place in BT, and that Mechs are the Kings of the Battlefield, but I truely think that there is room for more effective early era VTOLs.

SGT Mark McKinnon, Recon Lance McKinnon's Company, 7th Crusis Lancers, Federated Suns



Stormfury

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4429
  • Death couldn't stop me. How will you?
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #48 on: 03 July 2012, 09:57:07 »
Having messed around with a design program for a little while, I can say that a "gunship" chopper can be built, but I'm not sure if it is all that great an idea.

At 30 tons, you can get a Fusion Engine VTOL with 9 tons of armour, a PPC, and either 2 LRM-5s or 2 SRM-4s with a single ton of ammunition (or three SRM-2s with 2 tons of ammunition). The price is only moderate at 1.2 million C-Bills and a BV of about 800.

However, it needs to close to within 18 hexes to be particularly effective, and the availablilty of 40-rated Fusion engines is an unknown.

A 25-tonner can drop down to a 10-rated Fusion engine and a Large Laser with the same backup and 7.5 tons of armour.

The lack of range and speed worries me. YMMV.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #49 on: 03 July 2012, 10:00:49 »
I usually have at least one 5-X or HAG in my forces for long range critseeking, and failing that there is also the LPL which deals with all fast movers.  When you combine this with the normal 2 gunners you find in Clan forces swatting Ferrets is really not a big deal. 

I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, BUT, IMHO, someone fielding a 15/23 Vtol that lets you have LoS w/ them is highly incompetent & deserves to get shot.  Seriously, there is just no excuse for EVER being in LoS w/ that kind of Mobility.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #50 on: 03 July 2012, 10:01:50 »
Having messed around with a design program for a little while, I can say that a "gunship" chopper can be built, but I'm not sure if it is all that great an idea.

At 30 tons, you can get a Fusion Engine VTOL with 9 tons of armour, a PPC, and either 2 LRM-5s or 2 SRM-4s with a single ton of ammunition (or three SRM-2s with 2 tons of ammunition). The price is only moderate at 1.2 million C-Bills and a BV of about 800.

However, it needs to close to within 18 hexes to be particularly effective, and the availablilty of 40-rated Fusion engines is an unknown.

A 25-tonner can drop down to a 10-rated Fusion engine and a Large Laser with the same backup and 7.5 tons of armour.

The lack of range and speed worries me. YMMV.



Eww, way to slow IMHO,  and too much Armor,  lets face it, the Rotors won't last that long.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #51 on: 03 July 2012, 10:07:24 »
No offense, but the Apache, and the Hind are attack helos that put the pucker factor up in Armored Forces especially.

*rest snipped for brevity*

Hm. Do modern-day attack helicopters make a regular habit out of flying straight into the teeth of enemy forces that have suitable weapons to engage them right back?

Because that's what you're dealing with in BattleTech. Everything on the ground can target you as soon as you're in range, not just the dedicated anti-air units. Where in RL that <insert favorite MBT here> is going to have maybe one AA machine gun to shoot back at the chopper because the main gun can't be brought to bear in time if at all (and is intended mainly for use against ground targets anyway), in BT that Manticore is just going to swing its turret around and send a PPC bolt up into the sky at you, to say nothing of the 'Mechs.

Also, in real life things like anti-tank missiles can give you a potential one-shot kill capability that magic BT armor largely negates. The closest things you have in BattleTech are probably infernos (killer against infantry and other vees alike) and tandem-charge SRMs, but using those once again means closing into immediate reprisal range.

billtfor3

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 906
  • Smashing Liao and Kurita since 3025!
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #52 on: 03 July 2012, 10:24:18 »
If you look at the entire post I specified that, " R/L has no place in BT, and that Mechs are the Kings of the Battlefield, but I truely think that there is room for more effective early era VTOLs."

Not sure where you got that I ever endorsed straight on attacks either?  Long Range Harassers and Flankers is what I would use them as.

I feel strongly that VTOLs are:
A.  Mobile enough to cause problems, and lessen their Rotors weakness
B.  Can carry enough firepower to be a serious threat
C.  Be a fun change of pace to play with and against

Let's keep things civil and not start a flame war either please, that is definitely my intention.
SGT Mark McKinnon, Recon Lance McKinnon's Company, 7th Crusis Lancers, Federated Suns



Martius

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #53 on: 03 July 2012, 10:36:43 »
Well- no. VTOLs are too fragile to be a serious threat. The problem is that every vee in BT is a balance between speed, armour and firepower.

So if you want to give your VTOL good firepower (like, for example an AC 20 or AC 10) it will be slow with eggshell armour- and the choice of maingun forces it to get very, very close.

Long Range Harassers and Flankers is what I would use them as.

IMO the classic Warrior is exactly what you want then- a long range Harasser and Flanker.
Later you can get stuff like the ER-PPC Yellow Jacket or the Warrior S-9 or the Garuda. But in 3025 there are very few long range weapons around.

Quote
I feel strongly that VTOLs are:
A.  Mobile enough to cause problems, and lessen their Rotors weakness
B.  Can carry enough firepower to be a serious threat
C.  Be a fun change of pace to play with and against

A. Perhaps.
B. For a price.
C. Of course. I like my VTOLs but I know their limitations.


A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #54 on: 03 July 2012, 10:37:41 »
If you look at the entire post I specified that, " R/L has no place in BT [...]."

And yet, you brought up the performance of RL helicopters in the first place.

Moreover, what is "destroying enemy armor concentrations" (attack helicopters' second main role according to your wiki quote) if not a straight-on attack? The "long-range harasser and flanker" role is adequately filled by the AC/2-toting Warrior already...

billtfor3

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 906
  • Smashing Liao and Kurita since 3025!
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #55 on: 03 July 2012, 11:14:59 »
I think the Warrior with the AC 2 is waaaaay to under whelming for that role, especially with the speed advantage it has over 95% of the units in 3025 Tech.

Harassers are supposed to draw attention, and be enough of a pest to draw attention. 14 hexs is medium range for LRMs, but long range for most other weapon systems.  With a Warrior you can move 10 hexs at a cruise so getting your target modifer to +4 is easy while dropping yourself into the medium bracket and making it easier to hit with your own gunners 4 LRM 5s, and using that variant which I thank Brother Jim for doing the math on for me, your spending 570 BV. 

If you try and use them headed to head your going to take enough fire to down them, but if you use a couple as flankers/harassers they would be waaaay more effective than the standard Warrior.  In the end though I suppose it only matters in friendly games where you are allowed use customs.
SGT Mark McKinnon, Recon Lance McKinnon's Company, 7th Crusis Lancers, Federated Suns



snewsom2997

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #56 on: 03 July 2012, 11:28:10 »
Would not the Warrior Qualify? I mean it has an Autocannon and LRMs, and doesn't transport anything, it is as close to an attack chopper as you get until, the Yellow Jacket, Hawk Moth, and Donnar.

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #57 on: 03 July 2012, 12:28:19 »
Really, I think the main difference between the real life 21st century and the BattleTech 31st as far as choppers are concerned is that...in the BT universe, all weapons are inherently "dual-purpose", capable of engaging ground and air targets pretty much equally well. Some are better at flak duty than the rest, but all of them can in principle do it, with the only real difference between hitting a VTOL and hitting a non-jumping ground unit moving at the same speed being a +1 modifier.

That's a rather far cry from today's "damnit, somebody point a Stinger at that thing, it's too fast for our guns to track!".

mitchberthelson

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 545
  • Death to Zohan!
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #58 on: 03 July 2012, 13:45:31 »
Really, I think the main difference between the real life 21st century and the BattleTech 31st as far as choppers are concerned is that...in the BT universe, all weapons are inherently "dual-purpose", capable of engaging ground and air targets pretty much equally well. Some are better at flak duty than the rest, but all of them can in principle do it, with the only real difference between hitting a VTOL and hitting a non-jumping ground unit moving at the same speed being a +1 modifier.

That's a rather far cry from today's "damnit, somebody point a Stinger at that thing, it's too fast for our guns to track!".

Is there any rule preventing VTOLs with LRM's from using indirect fire? If not, you can use a modified version of the the old Cold War Apache/Kiowa tag team with LRM gunships being spotted for by scout VTOL's.

EDIT: If this does indeed work, see the Warrior H7C, which is a canon design at the original tech level that replaces the AC/2 with an LRM-10.
« Last Edit: 03 July 2012, 13:59:12 by mitchberthelson »

Minemech

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?
« Reply #59 on: 03 July 2012, 14:03:13 »
The Warrior's AC/2 makes it one of the best anti-armor units in the game. Sure it's AC/2 is not the best thing against mechs, but they are great for disabling or at least debilitating pesky tanks. It has the speed to reach any target and the mobility to escape most threats.

Hm. Do modern-day attack helicopters make a regular habit out of flying straight into the teeth of enemy forces that have suitable weapons to engage them right back?
Well they did knock out a radar system Iraq could have used against us in the Gulf War.
« Last Edit: 03 July 2012, 14:04:56 by Minemech »

 

Register