Did Focht know about the Thomas Marik duplicate?

[Trailblazer]

The exact date is December '35 (p. 73 of Era Report 3052).

[roosterboy]

The exact date is December '35 (p. 73 of Era Report 3052).

Ah, thanks. I didn't think to look in Seneca's bio.

[Archangel]

Other than gaining them recruiting sources, labour pools, and safe havens for WarShip repair and refit, sure. Complete wastes of time.

And yet despite having enough equipment to supply an entire division no significant recruiting occurred.  You probably want to reread Cameron St. Jamais' report to the Master in FM:U (p200).  At the very least they acquired a key component to Erinyes.

The old ComStar sourcebook describes the position and its evolution. Before the existence of the Com Guard was revealed to the Sphere at large, it was ultimately commanded by the Precentor ROM as part of their purview.

After ComStar recruited Frederick Steiner to gain an experienced commander, the position was changed; Precentor Martial was a new title and had command over both ROM and the Com Guard. The Precentor ROM was subordinate to the Precentor Martial.

The ComGuards were subordinate to the Precentor ROM because they were still a secret and any deployment might accidentally reveal their existence.

[Archangel]

This all makes sense, except that the secret wasn't "already compartmentalized."  The bombing and the hiding of the original Thomas/Master occurred during Focht's term as Precentor ROM.

Unless ComStar was aware of the plot prior to the actual event or there were already contingency plans in place to replace Thomas Marik prior to the bombing from his time serving with ComStar (even more likely).  Contingency plans that were kept secret even from members of the First Circuit.

[Terminax]

I know a secret...

RAM... not ROM!

:D

[nckestrel]

I've run the numbers several times over multiple threads; the Word lacks the WarShip numbers of the Invading Clans, and even allowing for full strength of all 52 Divisions in '67 (which we know to not be the case, with several undermanned and/or in the process of forming) don't have anything even resembling enough military might to take on more than the battered Wolves.

The Word doesn't have the numbers to deal with the Invading Clans, therefore their plan was to take on the entire Inner Sphere?  I'm not getting your logic at all.

[Stormfury]

Not to take on the entire Inner Sphere, but to enact Scorpion 2.0; I said that further on in the post you quoted.

[ianargent]

Conquering large chunks of the Inner Sphere bootstraps to conquering the IS clans bootstraps to attacking Homeworld Clans; if you assume everything is coming up roses.

Or they really thought that returning a historic battleship to Tharkad as a gift would win over the Steiners, they controlled the FWL through "Thomas Marik", and they had a solid alliance with Sun-Tzu Liao; giving them the richest house, the most militarily productive house, and the most devious house of the Inner Sphere, and 2 of the 3 houses least likely to suffer from a counterattack, plus the one with a border with the least-liked (living) Clan in IS.

The Jihad kicked off way too early, too. What happens in 5-10 years with more warships floating out of slips in FWL, more trustworthy recruits for the Shadow Divisions, and a better "recruitment" process for unwilling converts?

The WoB thought they had the blessings of God - thus everything would break their way, no?

[Weirdo]

Folks, let's try to get this thread back on topic, please. [copper]

[ianargent]

OK - back on topic.

The bombing happens while Focht is not Precentor ROM, by almost half a year. He's hired as P-ROM to bring th eComstar Guards up to snuff as a fighting force, primarily. Why does he have need-to-know for the compartment where the "brothers" Thomas are? It's possible whoever was being groomed to step into that office (do we know that piece of info?) before Comstar starts the process that leads to a Precentor Martial's office being created might know - it's likely that whoever that was is Focht's Deputy Precentor for Black Ops (whatever his real title is); and he'd have need to know.

[roosterboy]

The bombing happens while Focht is not Precentor ROM, by almost half a year.

Incorrect.

21 July 3034: Focht is presented to Myndo Waterly by Theodore Kurita. He is "immediately" appointed Precentor ROM.
1 June 3035: Bomb kills Janos and Duggan Marik and apparently Thomas as well.
December 3035: Focht is appointed Precentor Martial.

[ianargent]

Oops - misinterpreted the post upthread as him starting as P-ROM in 3035, not as P-Martial. Should have checked the sources directly.

[Cyc]

Given that Waterly was directly visiting Thomas after the bombing, or merely claiming such to the official record if he wasn't on Terra at Hilton Head recuperating like the ComStar sourcebook claims, even with Focht as PR it seems likely she'd have plenty of chance to bypass or pull rank on him.

[Stormfury]

Not like Focht would have had much interest in what was happening, either.

What I think is the most likely way for Focht to find out is after Victor does; that data had to be transmitted, and reading other people's mail is what ComStar does best. By that point, there's no reason to act on that information, though; Focht's focus was always on the Clans, not the FWL or whatever the Word may be up to.

Came back to bite him in hindsight, but at the time it seems like the right call.

[Bosefius]

On the one hand Focht has been presented as the ultimate in honorable men (to the point that he is sent willingly on a suicide mission by Katrina because of his honor) to the point of rivaling Victor for honor. So knowing about the duplicity of the fake Thomas Marik goes against everything we know about the character. Furthermore, there is never any hint in even Focht's private thoughts that he knew.

At the same time, he was Precentor ROM when Marik was still 'recuperating' so you would think he would know.

Personally I find it entirely reasonable that Waterly replaced Marik without Focht knowing. He didn't know about Scorpion or any of the other secrets (as presented by Blake Documents) so it is entirely possible he was kept in the dark about this also.

As always, take what I say with a beach full of sand.

[Archangel]

It should also be noted that Primus Waterly has had considerable influence with ROM even before she became Primus.  After all she was able to plan and execute the attack on the NAIS (during the 4SW) behind Primus Tiepolo's back.  It should come as no surprise that there were ROM cells that reported directly to her bypassing the Precentor ROM entirely especially after Devon Cortland (aka Vapula) claims that she was the last Primus to know about the Hidden Five.  Considering she kept secrets even from those she supposedly trusted most, such as her protege (and undercover Combine agent) Sharilar Mori, it should be no surprise she kept secrets from Anastasius Focht.

[Stormfury]

Tiepolo died and Myndo was made Primus the month before the attack on the NAIS.

[Stormcrow]

Which doesn't keep her from doing the NAIS attack behind his back. An effort of such importance and complexity would be months in the planning, not days and weeks.

[Minemech]

 I would think Operation Flush was the first major item that Focht was tested with. There was no room for error in the Thomas Marik project.

[Archangel]

Which doesn't keep her from doing the NAIS attack behind his back. An effort of such importance and complexity would be months in the planning, not days and weeks.

Exactly especially when you go to such lengths as to duplicate the serial numbers of the parts in the Death Commandos' Mechs (4SWV2, p91).

[roosterboy]

Tiepolo died and Myndo was made Primus the month before the attack on the NAIS.

Tiepolo had a heart attack a month before the attack, but he didn't die and Myndo didn't get elected to replace him until two months after.

And, as others have already pointed out, she was probably working on the plan before his heart attack. In fact, I'm almost certain of it given the way that scene plays out in the novel. And there's the fact that Waterly knew NAIS had a copy of the Helm core when not even Tiepolo had that information. She was running her own agents on New Avalon behind the back of the Primus. Not to mention that in order to have troops ready to arrive on New Avalon in three weeks, she'd have to have been preparing them before she ever set foot in that First Circuit meeting.

[Stormfury]

Three weeks is easily done with ComStar's fleet assets and/or duping civilian JumpShips through their communications monoply.

Waterly calls for a vote on attacking the NAIS immediately after Tiepolo's collapse. She did have it planned in advance, but her influence over ROM was limited.

Regardless, reading the old ComStar Sourcebook does indicate that Waterly had Focht's predecessor in her pocket. Tiepolo had a massive stroke and was kept alive only via life support two days after his heart attack. Waterly was running the show, even if she wasn't officially Primus until later.

The mysterious Tojo Jarlath was Precentor ROM at the time, but his fate remains unclear. First and last time I've ever heard of him, any way.

[Archangel]

Three weeks is easily done with ComStar's fleet assets and/or duping civilian JumpShips through their communications monoply.

Waterly calls for a vote on attacking the NAIS immediately after Tiepolo's collapse. She did have it planned in advance, but her influence over ROM was limited.

Regardless, reading the old ComStar Sourcebook does indicate that Waterly had Focht's predecessor in her pocket. Tiepolo had a massive stroke and was kept alive only via life support two days after his heart attack. Waterly was running the show, even if she wasn't officially Primus until later.

The mysterious Tojo Jarlath was Precentor ROM at the time, but his fate remains unclear. First and last time I've ever heard of him, any way.

When you have so much influence over the head of an intelligence organization that he not only will keep critically vital information from his superior (such as the fact that the NAIS had acquired a copy of the Helm Memory Core) but also help you organize an unauthorized battalion-sized military operation behind that superior's back either of which could result in his execution then you have a lot of influence over that organization.

[Stormfury]

I seriously doubt Tiepolo did not have ROM agents personally loyal to him.

Waterly's influence over Tojo gave her some advantages, but she controlled only him- not ROM as a whole. Even with the Precentor behind her, there is still only so much that can be accomplished. Once the organisation at large is involved, her influence is far less and the risk of exposure far greater.

[Frabby]

ComStar was heavily implied to be behind the NAIS attack, but was it ever spelled out that it was a (regular) ROM operation? Could it have been a "private" operation by Waterly or a similarly powerful splinter faction?

[Stormfury]

Considering she presented the proposal to the First Circuit and they agreed upon it?

Not really, no. It was a "regular" operation, through and through.

[Archangel]

I seriously doubt Tiepolo did not have ROM agents personally loyal to him.

Waterly's influence over Tojo gave her some advantages, but she controlled only him- not ROM as a whole. Even with the Precentor behind her, there is still only so much that can be accomplished. Once the organisation at large is involved, her influence is far less and the risk of exposure far greater.

And yet none of them warned the Primus of the conspiracy against him.  Just by having the Precentor ROM in her pocket they were able to convince anybody who got too curious that they were following the Primus' orders, that per his orders everything was to be kept quiet and that the Primus was keeping the operation at arm's length to protect himself politically just in case it went bad.  The Primus was reliant on reports from "his" Precentor ROM, who was more loyal to Waterly, while the Precentor ROM could use his position to keep any pro-Tiepolo agent from discovering their plans and warning the Primus whether through deception or simply eliminating the threat.

Theodore Kurita had influence over only Subhash Indrahar and Ninyu Kerai with most of the ISF rank and file being far more loyal to Takashi than Theodore. Yet the two of them were able to keep several of Theodore's key plans secret from Takashi who more than likely would have subsumed them (in the case of Theodore's planned invasion of Dromini VI during the 4SW) if not outright forbidden them (agreeing with Waverly to giving up most of the Rasalhague District to the soon to be formed FRR).  Theodore's influence over Ninyu was such that he eliminated a fellow ISF agent who was doing his job in reporting what Theodore was up to.

In both cases, while the respective leaders (Primus/Coordinator) might have the loyalty of the majority of the rank and file, both Theodore and Myndo had effective control in the areas that they needed to thereby preventing either the Primus or the Coordinator from stopping their plans.

Don't forget that even before the planning began on the NAIS operation, Myndo Waterly (Precentor Dieron) was able to launch a ROM operation on New Avalon without word reaching either the Primus' or Precentor New Avalon's ears.  Had Precentor New Avalon found out he would have been more than a little angry ("how dare that ##### conduct an operation in my backyard without consulting me") and definitely would have gone to the Primus.

[Archangel]

Considering she presented the proposal to the First Circuit and they agreed upon it?

Not really, no. It was a "regular" operation, through and through.

While I agree that it was a ROM/ComGuard operation, it was a rogue ROM operation as it had been set in motion prior to receiving proper approval from the Primus or the First Circuit.  If the confrontation hadn't taken place and Tiepolo hadn't had his heart attack, it is questionable whether or not she would have even sought approval from the First Circuit.  For example if Tiepolo had been hospitalized prior to the meeting, somebody other than Myndo would have been interim leader.  Being a true believer in the righteousness of her cause, she would have, more than likely, launched her attack with or without approval.

[Stormfury]

The ComStar Sourcebook says that Waterly and Tojo had worked up the plans for the attack together. It does not say that the forces were inbound already.

[Archangel]

It does not say that the forces were inbound already.

I don't believe anybody said that although it is possible she moved them to a forward staging area to await the final 'go' command.