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Author Topic: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?  (Read 2387 times)

CloaknDagger

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"Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« on: 26 August 2012, 15:00:02 »
What's up with that criticism I see around here often? It seems like people complain that the vee doesn't suck because it has unnecessarily low armor.

There's nothing wrong with a Clan Vee that can take a beating.

Jim1701

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #1 on: 26 August 2012, 15:43:12 »
It does go against the Clan way of thinking.

Coldstone

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #2 on: 26 August 2012, 15:51:22 »
The first vees, yes.

But what about things like the Morrigu? Or newer Tanks like the axel IIC? Even the clans learned that in these times, every weapon counts.
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CloaknDagger

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #3 on: 26 August 2012, 17:02:42 »
The first vees, yes.

But what about things like the Morrigu? Or newer Tanks like the axel IIC? Even the clans learned that in these times, every weapon counts.

The Morrigu sucks. It's an 80 ton tank with only 13 tons of armor. It doesn't even need to have that little armor. It has TWO ER Large Lasers. It spends SIXTEEN TONS on that second one. You know what else is 16 tons? A Gauss Rifle, 16 shots, AND two tons of armor.

Colt Ward

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #4 on: 27 August 2012, 03:47:51 »
A gauss rifle which can explode.

A gauss rifle which needs ammo.

A gauss rifle which cannot reach as far.

A gauss rifle that the Blood Spirits would rather put on a Mech with their limited resources.

A gauss rifle that does not match the general Blood Spirit logistics system.

Btw, that 13 tons your mocking?  Give it better protection than the Partisan variants.  A little less than the Fury.  More than the Demolisher which totes two gauss rifles.  More than the Schiltron Omni-veh the Dracs put out.  Nearly double the old Schrek PPC Carrier.  Same as the Alacorn Mk VI which has 15 tons on it, and is a ton under the Challenger X which also has 10 tons on it.

Granted, first upgrade it to make it FF armor but hey, we are talking about the Blood Spirits here.

IMO, it all depends on when your fluffing your Clan armor out as . . . post Invasion the Invading Clans started making some armored bricks like the Heimdall, Shoden, Enyo, Tyr, and more.  The only improved armor designs we see from the Homeworlds would be the Spirits building the Morrigu, which makes sense due to their limited resources.
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Fireangel

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #5 on: 27 August 2012, 09:26:01 »
Thing is that while the clans can put out some truly scary MBT's, their basic philosophy is against it; they tend to design combat vehicles for roles based on imperfect understanding of tactical vehicle use and absolute derision for them.

Only the Horses put out some reasonably good designs and even here, they are designed as support for their BA or infantry (i.e. Epona).

Imagine something like a Myrmidon IIC with clan FF, cLPL (or cERLL), cStreak-6, TC and an XLE for superior MP performance; Such an efficient killing machine is completely outside the frame of reference of the clans.

Colt Ward

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #6 on: 27 August 2012, 11:03:30 »
Imagine something like a Myrmidon IIC with clan FF, cLPL (or cERLL), cStreak-6, TC and an XLE for superior MP performance; Such an efficient killing machine is completely outside the frame of reference of the clans.

I am confused . . . were you referring to the Enyo (only crime is 55t instead of 50t) or the BE700/701 Joust?
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Fireangel

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #7 on: 27 August 2012, 11:39:28 »
Enyo comes pretty close, but take a closer look; 3xStreak-6... with a full ton of ammo each and requires a heavy vehicle bay to hot drop into combat. It's also a Horse design deployed in 3063; the best conventional-force clan still makes basic mistakes... and if you look at the artwork, you'll see issues there too.

The Joust also has its own issues; first, It is a Nova Cat design, so Combine input and IS experience is a given. Its late/post-jihad design also reflects experiences that the clans (especially the homeworld clans) don't have. The original 700 was much closer to what I mentioned... but it was discontinued for the 701, which has EIGHT LMGs in the same turret it has the ERLL and the LRMs... ::)

The key is that neither is a simple, straightforward analogue to a general-purpose sub-50-ton MBT.

CloaknDagger

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #8 on: 27 August 2012, 18:48:50 »
Enyo comes pretty close, but take a closer look; 3xStreak-6... with a full ton of ammo each and requires a heavy vehicle bay to hot drop into combat. It's also a Horse design deployed in 3063; the best conventional-force clan still makes basic mistakes... and if you look at the artwork, you'll see issues there too.

The Joust also has its own issues; first, It is a Nova Cat design, so Combine input and IS experience is a given. Its late/post-jihad design also reflects experiences that the clans (especially the homeworld clans) don't have. The original 700 was much closer to what I mentioned... but it was discontinued for the 701, which has EIGHT LMGs in the same turret it has the ERLL and the LRMs... ::)

The key is that neither is a simple, straightforward analogue to a general-purpose sub-50-ton MBT.

What about this?

Code: [Select]
Clan MBT

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F
Production Year: 0
Cost: 7,561,250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,569

Power Plant:  250 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 54.0 km/h
Flanking Speed: 86.4 km/h
Armor:  Hardened
Armament:
    1  iATM-12
    1  Large Pulse Laser
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      25 points                5.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             250                      10.00
    Cruise MP:  5
    Flank MP:   8
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         2.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.50
Armor:              Hardened                     AV - 120                 15.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     29       
                                          Left/Right   24/24       
                                              Turret     24       
                                                Rear     19       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser                            T         10        1         6.00
iATM-12                                      T         8         1         7.00
@iATM-12 (ER) (5)                            BD        -         0         1.00
@iATM-12 (HE) (5)                            BD        -         0         1.00
@iATM-12 (5)                                 BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 16
5          4       3       2       0      2     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: CASE

Gryphon

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #9 on: 27 August 2012, 19:53:59 »
Needs 1-2 Anti-Personnel Gauss Rifles and a ton of ammo ammo...

And I hate the APGR as being entirely too good...but i also admit to a bit of grognardism in my gene code too, so take that with a grain of salt...

I thought the "magic percentage" for armor was something like 20%, and closet to 12-15% for the Clans? Is that sort of right, as in what many also think, or am I merely misremembering some obscure quote from somewhere?

Fireangel

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #10 on: 27 August 2012, 19:55:58 »
AFB

Can the clans use hardened armour?  ???

Anyway, that is a pretty good MBT that makes perfect sense (though I'm not a fan of any ATM that does not give me cash). But it makes too much sense to be a clan MBT.  :D

Jellico

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #11 on: 27 August 2012, 20:10:16 »
Yes, the Bears have made it since 61 and the Sharks put it on their new Mad Cat II.

iATMs? Thats a little cheesy isn't it? Only available to the surviving Home Clans.

Thing is that while the clans can put out some truly scary MBT's, their basic philosophy is against it; they tend to design combat vehicles for roles based on imperfect understanding of tactical vehicle use and absolute derision for them.
People often fail to understand that the Clans don't make MBTs. The best MBT is a 'Mech and the Clans have no shortage of those. Upon realising that the designs make a lot more sense.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #12 on: 28 August 2012, 06:53:49 »
Why would clans use hardened Armor?
They got Ferro-Lammelor.... Well, some do.
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TigerShark

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #13 on: 28 August 2012, 07:05:44 »
Clan vees are of poor design as a rule, frankly. This is because their vehicles, if properly constructed, would completely outclass Mechs on an open field. An Oro (HAG) is a truly nasty design, as are the Mars upgrades. Try throwing those against 3050-era designs (before the "pulse madness" kicked in) and you're going to have a very tough day.

Now to be fair, I do use the TacOps rules for Vehicles and motive system damage, so that reflects a bit on their "toughness." But units like the Donar are wickedly ingenious and can win a battle all by themselves. +5 (Movement) + 4 (Long) = 12 to-hit against standard Clan pilots. It's only a matter of time before you ace something as large as a Dire Wolf with a Point of these.
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Jellico

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #14 on: 28 August 2012, 17:49:09 »
Hardened armour reduces the chances of crits while ferro lamellor doesn't. Vehicles don't get the -1 MP from hardened armour either.
Additionally while ferro lamellor allows armouring above maximums to approximately 20%, hardened armour allows a 100% increase above the unit's maximum.
Ferro lamellor is lighter than hardened armour, but then it is heavier than both standard and ferro fibrous plate. However it does offer more protection per ton than the former. Hardened armour offers the same protection per ton as standard armour.

Hardened armour is trickier than ferro lamellor to use. The later is so close to ferro fibrous it is relatively simple to swap it. The prevelance of ferro fibrous means switching to hardened usually means a reduction in protection. However standard armour designs like the Tyr or Morrigu are in a position to benefit from the increased resistance to crits, without a loss in protection.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #15 on: 28 August 2012, 17:55:15 »
But ferro Lamellor isn't as vulnerable to AP rounds. It also doesn't incur a PSR penalty, and it can be used on Hovers and VTOLs.
Well, ok, FL is mostly good for Mechs, I suppose for vehicles few things beat Hardened Armor.
Still, 88% coverage at -20% received damage equals a 10% protection plus that hardened armor doesn't give; It allows you to exceed your maximum, but doesn't effectively reduce taken damage.
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Pa Weasley

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #16 on: 28 August 2012, 18:53:48 »
The Joust also has its own issues; first, It is a Nova Cat design, so Combine input and IS experience is a given. Its late/post-jihad design also reflects experiences that the clans (especially the homeworld clans) don't have. The original 700 was much closer to what I mentioned... but it was discontinued for the 701, which has EIGHT LMGs in the same turret it has the ERLL and the LRMs... ::)

The key is that neither is a simple, straightforward analogue to a general-purpose sub-50-ton MBT.
Nah, the 701 is the bargin basement priced export version. The 700 is still very much in production. I don't remember TRO 3085 saying there was any Combine input into the design either.  ;)

Fireangel

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #17 on: 28 August 2012, 19:01:49 »
Nah, the 701 is the bargin basement priced export version. The 700 is still very much in production. I don't remember TRO 3085 saying there was any Combine input into the design either.  ;)

It's the Nova Cats; if it was not Combine, it was definitely Inner Sphere; the spheroid taint of this abjured not-clan pervades it to its core. [watch]

Pa Weasley

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #18 on: 28 August 2012, 19:10:20 »
Must .... not ... take .... bait. Must keep thread on ... topic!  #P

Fireangel

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #19 on: 28 August 2012, 19:21:31 »
Still, the point is made; the Inner Sphere clans have been exposed to conditions unlike those in the clan homeworlds; the new trend of better clan combat vees reflects what the Vipers would've called "inner sphere taint"; the idea that war is not as clean and ordered as the clans used to think.

Jellico

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #20 on: 28 August 2012, 21:26:33 »
But ferro Lamellor isn't as vulnerable to AP rounds. It also doesn't incur a PSR penalty, and it can be used on Hovers and VTOLs.
Well, ok, FL is mostly good for Mechs, I suppose for vehicles few things beat Hardened Armor.
Still, 88% coverage at -20% received damage equals a 10% protection plus that hardened armor doesn't give; It allows you to exceed your maximum, but doesn't effectively reduce taken damage.
Maybe. If you intend to use maximum armour or less, ferro fibrous is probably still better than ferro lamellor. Yes, you don't take damage, but motive systems are still just as exposed and easily disabled. Ferro fibrous is lighter per protection given than ferro lamellor.

I am struggling to think of a tank that uses maximum armour. The weights involved are massive and compromise firepower and mobility. There is a strong argument that these matter more under TW as a heavily armed tank can disable a heavily armoured tank before the latter can achieve a kill. So building to maximum armour limits, making use of hardend or ferro lamellors abilities, is more theoretical than practical. With both types of armour the primary advantage is critical prevention.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: "Clan Vees must have pathetic armor"?
« Reply #21 on: 01 September 2012, 09:46:38 »
Well, AP rounds and TCs are a threat to vehicles...
But point taken; On vehicles, hardened is probably the sounder choice.
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