What it means to be a Clan Warrior, Revisited, AGAIN. Reposted

[Fear Factory]

I think more along the lines of "They may die, but odds are they will not.  Either way, so be it."  Clan mechs still come equipped with ejection seats and auto-eject features, right?  I would neither encourage or discourage their use.  What you've said so far leads me to suspect you would have the warriors disable both.

Actually, I do.  AFAIK, somewhere, there is a source that states that the Clan Warriors do indeed disable these features.

I'll dig around for it.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I can see autoeject.  After all, it might just be one round of LRM-5 that gets TACed.  Completely disabling the seat though just strikes me as wasteful.  What if there's a warrior with a holed head whose mech is disabled whilst standing in L1 water?  Without a working seat, his mech falls in and he drowns.  Pointless waste of a good warrior, quite aside from 'warriors die in combat'.

[Daishi411]

Again, from The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky:

"With the notable exception of people, the Clans rarely waste any resource."

Like the OP said, the clans grow people at need. And as The Clan: Warriors of Kerensky agrees, thats one thing they are not afraid to waste.

That being said there are lots of ways to keep everyone from dying. IIRC in the Refusal War, the war ended when Ulric was killed..since he was the one refusing. The rest of Clan Wolf then stood down and got absorbed. (Minus WIE)

Another thought is the battle of Tukayyid, no clan in that battle fought to the last man. Even the Smoke Jaguars eventually retreated when it became obvious their objectives were no longer attainable. And yet in my Falcon and the Wolf Scenario pack it says that Jade Falcons forces cannot retreat because of their unwavering adherence to clan doctrine (unlike Clan Wolf and their 'flexible' attitude).

Perhaps the reason this argument exists is not because of people misunderstanding source text, but because the text itself is contradicting and ambiguous on the subject itself?

you realize you're contradicting yourself.

as for source material, eg warriors of kerensky that was quoted earlier. its pointless to stick to it as dogma like fear factory just did to prove a point earlier, since as arkensas warrior noted, canon story deviates from the behavior espoused in the quote. its therefore hard to make the general clanners do this or the by and large clanners think this argument since there's little corroborating evidence for it, but rather lots of examples that deviate from it.

just a caveat for further discussion, again as noted by arkansas warrior that people cleanly neglected to acknowledge

[MechTheDane]

Perhaps the reason this argument exists is not because of people misunderstanding source text, but because the text itself is contradicting and ambiguous on the subject itself?

I feel like we're saying the same thing.
If you are saying that contradicts an earlier statement that I made.. I'm sorry that my opinion evolved over time?
(Mostly from considering what Arkansas said)

[Daishi411]

i read your full post, people however seem to be disregarding the importance of that point, including the essay at the beginning.

i don't get why deathshadow hasn't shown up yet to explain the point of this essay

[Fear Factory]

...canon story deviates from the behavior espoused in the quote. its therefore hard to make the general clanners do this or the by and large clanners think this argument since there's little corroborating evidence for it, but rather lots of examples that deviate from it.

Because the novels are basically movie-type portrayals?  I like to think of the novels as Americanized adaptations like we see with "Sherlock Holmes" and "Robin Hood."  Authors have to make the stories much more interesting than they are to grab our attention.  I'm not going to base my gameplay on a silly novel depiction of an event.  Every Clan Warrior is not Aiden Pryde or Angela Bekker.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The novels are the canon way things happened unless specifically noted otherwise.  It doesn't matter if you think they're accurate to IC 'real life' or not.  Certainly, you can disregard them for your own game, but don't state your houserules as canon.

[Daishi411]

The novels are the canon way things happened unless specifically noted otherwise.  It doesn't matter if you think they're accurate to IC 'real life' or not.  Certainly, you can disregard them for your own game, but don't state your houserules as canon.

this here exactly

[Fear Factory]

The novels are the canon way things happened unless specifically noted otherwise.  It doesn't matter if you think they're accurate to IC 'real life' or not.  Certainly, you can disregard them for your own game, but don't state your houserules as canon.

this here exactly

Where did I post ANY house rules?  I'm not saying the novels didn't happen and omitting them from the canon universe in my games.  They're canon, but in the hierarchy of all things canon, from what I understand, source books are THE place for canon information.  I mean, no one knocks the people who omit Far Country and that's canon.  If they were "true" in the way you guys portray them there would be Aiden Prydes and other off-the-wall situations like his almost everywhere.

Shoot, look at Vlad's Executioner in Blood Legacy.  WTF happened there?

[Shockwave]

I am in full agreement of the OP.

Most people these days play as if their pilots need to live, so they can fight another day. Clan mindset is not that, the mindset is more of win, to fight another day.

BUT a disclaimer, I am still stuck in 62 as I do not like where the clan storyline went.

[Daishi411]

Where did I post ANY house rules?  I'm not saying the novels didn't happen and omitting them from the canon universe in my games.  They're canon, but in the hierarchy of all things canon, from what I understand, source books are THE place for canon information.  I mean, no one knocks the people who omit Far Country and that's canon.  If they were "true" in the way you guys portray them there would be Aiden Prydes and other off-the-wall situations like his almost everywhere.

Shoot, look at Vlad's Executioner in Blood Legacy.  WTF happened there?

chill, i was addressing more the issue of written cannon, not house rules. the issue i think arkansas warrior was addressing was how you decide to treat the books, ultimately it doesn't matter, those are what determine cannon, unless otherwise dealt with.

[Fear Factory]

chill, i was addressing more the issue of written cannon, not house rules. the issue i think arkansas warrior was addressing was how you decide to treat the books, ultimately it doesn't matter, those are what determine cannon, unless otherwise dealt with.

Yeah, and it was unfair the way he addressed it.  Also, you were quick to support his response. (and I don't need to chill because I'm not mad at all  :) )

I'm going to clean up my other post to make it more clear in what I was trying to convey:

Where did I post ANY house rules to support my arguments and imply omitting of canon data?  I'm not saying the novels didn't happen and omitting them from the canon universe in my games.  They're canon, but in the hierarchy of all things canon, from what I understand, source books are THE number one place for canon information.  No one knocks the people who shun Far Country and that's canon.  If they were "true" in the way you guys have been using Novels in your arguments there would be a lot of Aiden Prydes and his silly situation in almost every game.

Some novels are actually good at capturing the typical Clan warrior.  Deathshadow supports Test of Vengeance for this reason and it is pretty clear why he supports it in his article.

I said I'm not going to base my gameplay on a "silly novel depiction or event."  I'm not looking to play Aiden Pryde because he's one opposed to the many warriors in Clan Jade Falcon.  The stories only tell for a select few and it is told in a way that can make a great movie and keep people reading.  I'm not going to base how I play on what Aiden Pryde did.  I'm going to base more of my decisions on what the sourcebooks say regarding Zel and the like (Actually, MechWarrior 2 really helped me with my Clan Attitude for just about all the Clan games I have played, I always have the Drill Instructor in my head).  This is FAR different than saying I "disregard them from my own game."

EDIT:  I'm well aware that the Video Games are not Canon, but the Clans in MechWarrior 2 were portrayed pretty good IMO.

[Daishi411]

Yeah, and it was unfair the way he addressed it.  Also, you were quick to support his response. (and I don't need to chill because I'm not mad at all  :) )

its hard to address based on your edit, but you were a little short. either way the reason i was so quick to agree with arkansas warrior is because i believe him to be correct for the most part, why wouldn't i support him? now you've pretty much changed your post quite a lot, to the point where it essentially backs up our argument, with the exception of the aiden pryde part, which i don't fully understand   

edit: no need for me to speak for arkansas warrior

[Arkansas Warrior]

I used 'houserules' in a rather too loose sense.  I shoud have been clearer; I was taking issue with your treating the novels as basically movies.  There are a (very) few instances where novels have been specifically stated to be incorrect or noncanonical (the only one that comes to mind off hand is the Excalibur with a Naval PPC in Flashpoint), other than that the novels are the way it went down in canon.  What I understood you to be saying was that you treated the novels as inaccurate depictions, and that this had colored your argument, thus the comment, which was intended to convey something along the lines of "If you go a different direction with your group that's fine and dandy, but the discussion here is about canon".

[Fear Factory]

its hard to address based on your edit, but you were a little short. either way the reason i was so quick to agree with arkansas warrior is because i believe him to be correct for the most part, why wouldn't i support him? there was nothing wrong with it, and there was nothing unfair about the way he addressed it, you handled in poorly, that's not his or my problem. now you've pretty much changed your post quite a lot, to the point where it essentially backs up our argument, with the exception of the aiden pryde part, which i don't fully understand

My post is still the same thing just more clear.

As far as the Aiden Pryde thing, I'm under the impression that you feel that Novels are the only way to portray how a Clan Warrior acts.  I think following the general description (which has been posted) in The Clans: Warrior of Kerensky has more weight to it.  There is a similar description on the Warrior mentality in MechWarrior Companion if I remember correctly.  A novel portrays a few people while a sourcebook gives you a much deeper insight on a wide range of people.  The Clan Warrior should have the same thing running through his head regardless of what Clan he or she is in.  A Clan Warrior is not scared of dying and will stop anyone in his path when the objective is set.  There is no concern about survival.  This does not mean that each Clan operates exactly the same, however, the core of being Clan is still in place.

Novels do a lot of wonky things (I'm thinking of the Packhunter doing a headstand), so when it comes to playing a Clan force, IMO it is much safer to follow a sourcebook than a character in a novel (like Aiden Pryde).  I've seen too many people try to do the whole survive to get a bloodname thing while playing Clan, when in reality, they should be more concerned about fighting their butts off.  The only way a Warrior gets into the gene pool is by defeating impossible odds and making a name of him or herself which is not achieved by bidding even forces.   Sadly, most people seem to be satisfied with this.  Who are they going to have compete for a bloodname, the guy who took a risk against two Mad Dogs in a Fire Moth and won (somehow) or the guy who plants himself on a hill in heavy woods in a Dire Wolf Widowmaker sniping at medium OmniMechs?

I used 'houserules' in a rather too loose sense.  I shoud have been clearer; I was taking issue with your treating the novels as basically movies.  There are a (very) few instances where novels have been specifically stated to be incorrect or noncanonical (the only one that comes to mind off hand is the Excalibur with a Naval PPC in Flashpoint), other than that the novels are the way it went down in canon.  What I understood you to be saying was that you treated the novels as inaccurate depictions, and that this had colored your argument, thus the comment, which was intended to convey something along the lines of "If you go a different direction with your group that's fine and dandy, but the discussion here is about canon".

It's why I fixed my post.  I see the novels as "movies" while they are still canon... I mean, BattleTech is entertainment.

[Daishi411]

My post is still the same thing just more clear.

As far as the Aiden Pryde thing, I'm under the impression that you feel that Novels are the only way to portray how a Clan Warrior acts.

i stopped reading after this, since its clear you haven't read my posts properly, and are now making pointless inferences to prove your point. not once have i ever said this. i warned about taking that quote you used earlier because there are so many outliers relative to that description that its impossible to follow that as dogma.

its clear that this discussion has devolved enough since its come to making assumptions about personal beliefs. on top of that i haven't seen any evidence or a strong argument to support the OP-because there is none. so this has ultimately become frustrating since you're using the sa,e stuff over and over again and they have been disproven

[Daishi411]

My post is still the same thing just more clear.

As far as the Aiden Pryde thing, I'm under the impression that you feel that Novels are the only way to portray how a Clan Warrior acts.  I think following the general description (which has been posted) in The Clans: Warrior of Kerensky has more weight to it.  There is a similar description on the Warrior mentality in MechWarrior Companion if I remember correctly.  A novel portrays a few people while a sourcebook gives you a much deeper insight on a wide range of people.  The Clan Warrior should have the same thing running through his head regardless of what Clan he or she is in.  A Clan Warrior is not scared of dying and will stop anyone in his path when the objective is set.  There is no concern about survival.  This does not mean that each Clan operates exactly the same, however, the core of being Clan is still in place.

Novels do a lot of wonky things (I'm thinking of the Packhunter doing a headstand), so when it comes to playing a Clan force, IMO it is much safer to follow a sourcebook than a character in a novel (like Aiden Pryde).  I've seen too many people try to do the whole survive to get a bloodname thing while playing Clan, when in reality, they should be more concerned about fighting their butts off.  The only way a Warrior gets into the gene pool is by defeating impossible odds and making a name of him or herself which is not achieved by bidding even forces.   Sadly, most people seem to be satisfied with this.  Who are they going to have compete for a bloodname, the guy who took a risk against two Mad Dogs in a Fire Moth and won (somehow) or the guy who plants himself on a hill in heavy woods in a Dire Wolf Widowmaker sniping at medium OmniMechs?

screw it.

i don't agree with the first part at all, there;s no proof that the sourcebook is better than novels, since the universe itself progresses through the stories.

as for the second part i'm getting awfully sick of the 'i see to many people play clan incorrectly...' in favour of the essay. stop it, since i've never seen anything that makes that correct. i know the people i play with don't, and i guarantee the people on this forum don't either, so again stop it, its just silly, and inconclusive. if that's all you're relying on for following the essay, then go for it, it makes no difference to me, but stop using that argument to support it.

again, since you're now making silly assumptions that are incorrect, and your argument has gone down hill, i'm out, its just frustrating

[ShockaTime]

Novels do a lot of wonky things (I'm thinking of the Packhunter doing a headstand), so when it comes to playing a Clan force, IMO it is much safer to follow a sourcebook than a character in a novel (like Aiden Pryde).  I've seen too many people try to do the whole survive to get a bloodname thing while playing Clan, when in reality, they should be more concerned about fighting their butts off.  The only way a Warrior gets into the gene pool is by defeating impossible odds and making a name of him or herself which is not achieved by bidding even forces.   Sadly, most people seem to be satisfied with this.  Who are they going to have compete for a bloodname, the guy who took a risk against two Mad Dogs in a Fire Moth and won (somehow) or the guy who plants himself on a hill in heavy woods in a Dire Wolf Widowmaker sniping at medium OmniMechs?

dead men and loosers don't get bloodnames, fact. I don't like to toot my own horn, but I am a damn fine Fire Moth user and I would have a very hard time pulling that off IF I even could. the fire moth pilot won't be getting a blood name against those odds, the Dire Wolf pilot on the other hand has a much better chance, so I'm not quite sure what your point is. there's a fine line between foolishness and risk taking which apparently you just aren't getting.

there are many examples in which preservation of life (of oneself or others) is the foremost concern.

[StCptMara]

You know, Fear Factory, Daishi, Arkansas Warrior..there is only one Clan way to settle this debate:

MegaMek battle!
 Fear Factory should state what forces he is defending with, and Daishi and Arkansas Warrior, you two should bid
off what you are going to take his forces with.

[Dread Moores]

i don't agree with the first part at all, there;s no proof that the sourcebook is better than novels, since the universe itself progresses through the stories.

The universe has progressed quite a bit more through the sourcebooks than the novels. Additionally, TPTB have stated a number of times that sourcebooks trump novels with art coming in last. I don't disagree with the rest, letting folks set what they think "defines" Clandom for themselves. Just wanted to address that particular point.

[ShockaTime]

You know, Fear Factory, Daishi, Arkansas Warrior..there is only one Clan way to settle this debate:

MegaMek battle!
 Fear Factory should state what forces he is defending with, and Daishi and Arkansas Warrior, you two should bid
off what you are going to take his forces with.

I'm pretty sure that's not going to solve anything apart from who the better battletech player is.

[Daishi411]

You know, Fear Factory, Daishi, Arkansas Warrior..there is only one Clan way to settle this debate:

MegaMek battle!
 Fear Factory should state what forces he is defending with, and Daishi and Arkansas Warrior, you two should bid
off what you are going to take his forces with.

you know we aren't clanners right mara  ;)

we were trying to have an actual discussion about clanners, playing a game to solve who's right and who's wrong is not the way to do it, because we're real people

[Arkansas Warrior]

I'm pretty sure that's not going to solve anything apart from who the better battletech player is.

Inner Sphere Stravag!   (Okay, so it's true, we're not actually in the Clans, but he'd be absolutely correct if we were)

[ShockaTime]

I'd be all over it in an IC perspective, but i'm doing this specifically from an OOC perspective because of the nature of the topic.

[Daishi411]

exactly, this is a discussion on how each of us view the clans, and in no way is a btech game going to decide who's right and who's wrong, the evidence does that

[Fear Factory]

It would be awesome to play a game against both of you.

Actually, I've been considering getting into the online games...  Just don't know how I want to start.

The universe has progressed quite a bit more through the sourcebooks than the novels. Additionally, TPTB have stated a number of times that sourcebooks trump novels with art coming in last. I don't disagree with the rest, letting folks set what they think "defines" Clandom for themselves. Just wanted to address that particular point.

Thank you.  Do you have a link by chance?  I could have sworn I saw the same thing a few times...

dead men and loosers don't get bloodnames, fact. I don't like to toot my own horn, but I am a damn fine Fire Moth user and I would have a very hard time pulling that off IF I even could. the fire moth pilot won't be getting a blood name against those odds, the Dire Wolf pilot on the other hand has a much better chance, so I'm not quite sure what your point is. there's a fine line between foolishness and risk taking which apparently you just aren't getting.

there are many examples in which preservation of life (of oneself or others) is the foremost concern.

I'm talking about Warriors vs Warriors and the mindset they SHOULD have while facing each other in battle.  If the Clans were concerned about a Warrior's life they wouldn't be pumping out Sibkin, who also DIE in the training process, to replace the weak who have fallen.  When it comes down to it, a warrior is not going to be concerned about surviving or killing the opponent against him.  If they survive they are honored depending on the condition, if they die, their death is a testament to the Clan way and he or she will be replaced by new and improved blood from a better genepool.

Also, it is a poor example, but if it was a scenario where it was the ONLY unit left against two Mad Dogs and the objective was important and what I said happened, it would have more weight behind it than say, the Dire Wolf sniping off grossly lighter targets.  The Clans want a challenge to prove their strength over their enemy which is why they use Zel.

Anyway...

If people want to play the Clans as tree-hugging hippies, kids with guns, in an AU, or just because they have better tech, I don't care I will still play against them win or lose.  I've done it, and I'm not as rash as I have come off as here.  I don't sit at a game table and tell people they aren't playing right.  This thread is about a perspective, which is backed by novel and sourcebook entries from early Clan materials, compared to the Clans today and how they are played/handled today.  There is going to be criticism, good an bad, because it is an online forum, and IMO there is nothing wrong with that.  Because of this thread, I'm merely expressing the opinion I have which are based on these early materials I still enjoy today.

[ShockaTime]

I'm talking about Warriors vs Warriors and the mindset they SHOULD have while facing each other in battle.  If the Clans were concerned about a Warrior's life they wouldn't be pumping out Sibkin, who also DIE in the training process, to replace the weak who have fallen.  When it comes down to it, a warrior is not going to be concerned about surviving or killing the opponent against him.  If they survive they are honored depending on the condition, if they die, their death is a testament to the Clan way and he or she will be replaced by new and improved blood from a better genepool.

not what you were arguing.

the issue with the bloodname trial example is that it's not about death or kill, kill, kill, or however else you want to envision clan combat, it is about winning, plain and simple. dying or losing in a trial of bloodright gets you no where regardless of how large an underdog you are.

If people want to play the Clans as tree-hugging hippies, kids with guns, in an AU, or just because they have better tech, I don't care I will still play against them win or lose.  I've done it, and I'm not as rash as I have come off as here.  I don't sit at a game table and tell people they aren't playing right.  This thread is about a perspective, which is backed by novel and sourcebook entries from early Clan materials, compared to the Clans today and how they are played/handled today.  There is going to be criticism, good an bad, because it is an online forum, and IMO there is nothing wrong with that.  Because of this thread, I'm merely expressing the opinion I have which are based on these early materials I still enjoy today.

you clearly do care or you wouldn't be on here posting paragraphs of writing defending what I believe to be a crass accusation against people's motives for playing as a certain faction. people will play the clans as they want and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that and no one, be it you, myself, or Deathshadow, has the right to judge them.

the major issue at hand which no one except for Daishi seems to be addressing is that the title of this essay (or whatever you want to call it), "What it means to be clan" is a misnomer, if anything it should be "How to fight like a clanner" or "My narrow view on how to fight like a clanner". pick one.

[Fear Factory]

not what you were arguing.

the issue with the bloodname trial example is that it's not about death or kill, kill, kill, or however else you want to envision clan combat, it is about winning, plain and simple. dying or losing in a trial of bloodright gets you no where regardless of how large an underdog you are.

In a grand melee for a Bloodname you can't tell me that a Warrior is thinking "how do I not kill anyone."  It's either kill or be killed in this situation because they all want it, badly.

The warrior wants to win, hands down, but the Clan Warrior does not fear death if he faces it or bestows it on his enemy.  Death clears the way for new and improved blood and rids weakness within the Clans.  Death brings honor because they fought hard for their Clan.  They embrace death because of these reasons.

In any other battle, if they lose, on many occasions, it's a big deal because they either die or they survive and lose honor for losing an objective.  Their reputations are nothing like the generals of the Inner Sphere with all these achievements and long time service, win or loss.  The Clans keep fighting and the weak die in the process.  The ones that come out on top, who constantly triumph the odds against them and display their might, are nominated for bloodnames, not the warrior who sits in a heavy OmniMech and fights in a comfort zone like some average Inner Sphere warrior in every battle or coasts their way through their Clan career.  Those warriors either eventually die in battle, end up in a second-line unit, or grow old and die with a gun in their hands as an infantryman.

the major issue at hand which no one except for Daishi seems to be addressing is that the title of this essay (or whatever you want to call it), "What it means to be clan" is a misnomer, if anything it should be "How to fight like a clanner" or "My narrow view on how to fight like a clanner". pick one.

I would call it "What it means to be a Clan" because being Clan is based on two things:

1 - Might makes right
2 - Manifest Destiny

EDIT:  To make them less barbaric than their Inner Sphere surat enemies they do this under a code of conduct called Zel.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Crusader philosophy is based on Manifest Destiny, I'm not so sure you can say that about the Warden philosophy.

[Fear Factory]

The Crusader philosophy is based on Manifest Destiny, I'm not so sure you can say that about the Warden philosophy.

Crusaders are built to Conquer while Wardens are built to Protect.