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Author Topic: (Answered) AToW and AToWC BA questions  (Read 3953 times)

BirdofPrey

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(Answered) AToW and AToWC BA questions
« on: 30 September 2012, 00:43:59 »
I have a lot of questions about both A Time of War and the A Time of War Companion.  I kept them in the same thread since I feel the subject matter is tight enough, but feel free to splitit if you fell that was in error.  There are also some questions pertaining to equipment listed in Tech Manual, but they pertain to the personal combat scale as described in AToW, so I am asking them here.
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AToW pg. 215.
The battle armor weapons table lists shots/bursts for each weapon.  How is carrying additional ammunition for BA weaponry handled (Missiles excepting, TM handles those)?
It also lists ordinance type, does this mean I can use any of the stuff on pages 282-284 in any of the BA weapons that have such a listing?  Though this falls more under TW rules questions, I was under the

AToW:  pg. 216-217
Under battle armor melee attacks it states you use the appropriate skill for the melee attack being attempted stating that you use Martial arts for punches kicks, etc, and the table on the preceding page give modifiers to the Martial Arts skill rolls.  The record sheets for Battle armor in both AToW and AToWC both list Manipulators as a weapon with the skill as Pilot/BattleSuit, though.  Which of those skills do you use when making a Melee attack in battle armor?

Additionally are the manipulator modifiers cumulative or per arm.

How are the AP and BD values calculated for kicks?

Does the BA Myomer Booster change any of these values? (I would assume it would since it gives a +2 to damage done by swarm and leg attacks in TW scale, but AToW doesn't mention it as far as I can tell)
With that, can we get some AP/BD values for the equipment available to BA in TacOps.
How do reactive and reflective armor affect the BAR values of battle armor at the personal scale.
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How long can battle armor operate without being recharged (and how and with what are they recharged), and how do Power Packs (TM pg. 268) affect the operating time?  The fluff in TM lists a 24 hour operating time with clan power packs adding 12 hours and IS packs adding 10, but fluff != rules, so and official ruling would be appreciated.
Again, fluff != rules, but the fluff for jump jets (TM.pg 257) says BA jump Jets are chemical based which would imply they have limited fuel.  Are there any rules that would reflect this on the personal (ie. AToW) scale?  If so, how much additional distance does each fuel tank (TM pg 255)
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How are squad support weapons treated in AToW (TM pg. 270, TW pg. 229)?
They weigh a 50% of the weapon's mass on IS suits and 40% on Clan suits, presumably to represent the entire squad carrying parts of the weapon, and trooper 1 fires the weapon.  This is all well and good for TW scale compact, but how does it relate to AToW personal scale combat?  Would I treat the weapon in the mount as a crewed weapon? (and how many crew would it take?)

Are there any limitations to carrying around infantry weapons?  TW rules states that BA can put any light or medium weapon in the AP mounts (the AP mount massing 5kg for construction purposes) and any BA with armored gloves can carry one light or medium weapon in its hands.  While any sane GM would tell the players 'no'; as far as I can tell, there are no rules saying a Tornado can't carry around a Support PPC in its hands.

AToWC pg 57-60  BA crits.
Hits to armor have no effect but are not rerolled.  Do you still mark off the slot struck and re-roll future hits to that same slot, or are all hits to those slots containing armor ignored even if a slot has already been struck?

If a BA takes a Hand/Manipulator hit on an arm with no manipulator or armored glove, is the hit counted as an operator hit?
It states that each hit to the leg actuators reduces the MP of the suit by a quarter.  Can four or more hits make a suit unable to move or is there still some minimum movement?  If a BA can be rendered immobile, what effect, if any, do the fifth and sixth leg actuator hits have?
Just to confirm, does the BAR of the suit have no effect on  the damage sustained by the trooper for operator hits?
How are critical hits to Detachable weapons packs and detachable missile packs treated if the DWP/DMP has been jettisoned?  If it hasn't been jettisoned, will critical hits affect the ability to jettison it later (or make it automatically fall off)?

According to pg 61, Space Operations Adaptation makes the target number for an armor breach 12 instead of 10.  Does the roll revert to 10 if the Space Armor Operations Adaptation takes a critical hit?
Page 57 states that all suits PA(L) and BA have 12 hours of life support and an Extended Life Support increases this to 24 hours (so active time is doubled).  If the Extended Life support takes a critical hit, is the life support duration halved or is it reduced by 12 hours?  As a side note, can the air supply be extended further?
If a Suit has an ELS on it, but takes a hit to life support, will the ELS function as a back up life support system, or is it just more air tanks and scrubbers, and the trooper will suffocate anyway?

Does a sensor hit also disable the effects of additional sensor equipment (Active Probe, Heat Sensors, Improved Sensors)

It also states that IS BA have 4 medipacks and clan BA have 4 LSSUs.  I just want to confirm that these units do not, in fact, actually prevent an injured character from bleeding out, they merely reduce the detrimental effects of such a situation until such time the character dies from their wounds or finds proper medical care.  Speaking of which, the limb blown off effect includes a stuf, but medipacks and LSSUs negate stun.


On a side note, would it be possible in future printings, to add a row of bubbles for tracking the armor condition of a suit to the Battle Armor Squad COmbat Record sheet in AToW and the Advanced Battle Armor Combat Record sheet in AToWC?  Even infantry weapons have the potential to reduce the armor value of the suit.


More questions as I think of them.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2013, 14:21:40 by Xotl »

HABeas2

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #1 on: 02 October 2012, 20:40:49 »
Hello,

===
AToW pg. 215.
The battle armor weapons table lists shots/bursts for each weapon.  How is carrying additional ammunition for BA weaponry handled (Missiles excepting, TM handles those)?

As indicated on p. 214, that is shots per magazine. TechManual covers adding ammo beyond the standard magazine.

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It also lists ordinance type, does this mean I can use any of the stuff on pages 282-284 in any of the BA weapons that have such a listing? 

Yes.

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AToW:  pg. 216-217
Under battle armor melee attacks it states you use the appropriate skill for the melee attack being attempted stating that you use Martial arts for punches kicks, etc, and the table on the preceding page give modifiers to the Martial Arts skill rolls.  The record sheets for Battle armor in both AToW and AToWC both list Manipulators as a weapon with the skill as Pilot/BattleSuit, though.  Which of those skills do you use when making a Melee attack in battle armor?

In melee, you use Martial Arts. The Skill is needed when doing other things with the manipulator the GM may need to adjudicate (like pulling an injured baby out from under fallen debris without accidentally tearing its arm off....)

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Additionally are the manipulator modifiers cumulative or per arm.

The factor only those applicable to the limb conducting the action. If you have a battle claw on one hand and an armored glove on the other, you use the armored glove modifiers only when using the gloved hand, and the claw modifiers only when using the claw hand.

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How are the AP and BD values calculated for kicks?

Kicks apply all the applicable modifiers for chassis type, chassis weight, and other features. Since they are not manipulators, they get no fancy manipulator modifier.

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Does the BA Myomer Booster change any of these values? (I would assume it would since it gives a +2 to damage done by swarm and leg attacks in TW scale, but AToW doesn't mention it as far as I can tell)

Yup. Not mentioned, so we'll need to consider the errata.

Quote
With that, can we get some AP/BD values for the equipment available to BA in TacOps.
How do reactive and reflective armor affect the BAR values of battle armor at the personal scale.

Anything not given special AToW stats would basically be ignored for modifiers, so reactive and reflective BA armor would have no effect.

[/quote]How long can battle armor operate without being recharged (and how and with what are they recharged), and how do Power Packs (TM pg. 268) affect the operating time?  The fluff in TM lists a 24 hour operating time with clan power packs adding 12 hours and IS packs adding 10, but fluff != rules, so and official ruling would be appreciated.[/quote]

Here, fluff is good enough for rules. That's your operational time: 24 hours standard, +12/+10 for Clan/IS Packs.

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Again, fluff != rules, but the fluff for jump jets (TM.pg 257) says BA jump Jets are chemical based which would imply they have limited fuel.  Are there any rules that would reflect this on the personal (ie. AToW) scale?  If so, how much additional distance does each fuel tank (TM pg 255)

Nope; no extra rules. Feel free to take it up with the GM.

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How are squad support weapons treated in AToW (TM pg. 270, TW pg. 229)?
They weigh a 50% of the weapon's mass on IS suits and 40% on Clan suits, presumably to represent the entire squad carrying parts of the weapon, and trooper 1 fires the weapon.  This is all well and good for TW scale compact, but how does it relate to AToW personal scale combat?  Would I treat the weapon in the mount as a crewed weapon? (and how many crew would it take?)

Battle Armor-mounted support weapons use only one trooper to fire. For simplicity, the player can keep the squad together in close proximity to use the weapon, but that's really a GM's preference.

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Are there any limitations to carrying around infantry weapons?  TW rules states that BA can put any light or medium weapon in the AP mounts (the AP mount massing 5kg for construction purposes) and any BA with armored gloves can carry one light or medium weapon in its hands.  While any sane GM would tell the players 'no'; as far as I can tell, there are no rules saying a Tornado can't carry around a Support PPC in its hands.

If your GM allows it, it's his own damned fault.

Quote
AToWC pg 57-60  BA crits.
Hits to armor have no effect but are not rerolled.  Do you still mark off the slot struck and re-roll future hits to that same slot, or are all hits to those slots containing armor ignored even if a slot has already been struck?

They can't be critted, so they don't get marked.

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If a BA takes a Hand/Manipulator hit on an arm with no manipulator or armored glove, is the hit counted as an operator hit?

Slots not occupied with a component are treated as an Operator hit. In the case of hitting a Hand/Manipulator slot on a unit that has no hand/manipulator, I'd call it an empty slot.

Quote
It states that each hit to the leg actuators reduces the MP of the suit by a quarter.  Can four or more hits make a suit unable to move or is there still some minimum movement?  If a BA can be rendered immobile, what effect, if any, do the fifth and sixth leg actuator hits have?
Just to confirm, does the BAR of the suit have no effect on  the damage sustained by the trooper for operator hits?

Four slots immobilizes the suit, yup. The extra slots just mean its easy for this to happen. BAR has no effect on Operator hits in these rules because they are armor-penetrating criticals.

Quote
How are critical hits to Detachable weapons packs and detachable missile packs treated if the DWP/DMP has been jettisoned?  If it hasn't been jettisoned, will critical hits affect the ability to jettison it later (or make it automatically fall off)?

Treat them as empty slots until jettisoned. Hits have no effect on the jettison feature.

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According to pg 61, Space Operations Adaptation makes the target number for an armor breach 12 instead of 10.  Does the roll revert to 10 if the Space Armor Operations Adaptation takes a critical hit?


Since the item is destroyed by the crit, yes.

Quote
Page 57 states that all suits PA(L) and BA have 12 hours of life support and an Extended Life Support increases this to 24 hours (so active time is doubled).  If the Extended Life support takes a critical hit, is the life support duration halved or is it reduced by 12 hours?  As a side note, can the air supply be extended further?

That's up to how much your GM wants you to suffer, and no.

Quote
If a Suit has an ELS on it, but takes a hit to life support, will the ELS function as a back up life support system, or is it just more air tanks and scrubbers, and the trooper will suffocate anyway?

Yup. He's a goner.

Quote
Does a sensor hit also disable the effects of additional sensor equipment (Active Probe, Heat Sensors, Improved Sensors)

Yup.

Quote
It also states that IS BA have 4 medipacks and clan BA have 4 LSSUs.  I just want to confirm that these units do not, in fact, actually prevent an injured character from bleeding out, they merely reduce the detrimental effects of such a situation until such time the character dies from their wounds or finds proper medical care.  Speaking of which, the limb blown off effect includes a stuf, but medipacks and LSSUs negate stun.

Yup. Still bleeding. Good thing Clan suits have HarJel, huh?

Quote
On a side note, would it be possible in future printings, to add a row of bubbles for tracking the armor condition of a suit to the Battle Armor Squad COmbat Record sheet in AToW and the Advanced Battle Armor Combat Record sheet in AToWC?  Even infantry weapons have the potential to reduce the armor value of the suit.

Maybe, but you can also just keep adjusting the armor value line itself as well.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
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  Catalyst Game Labs

BirdofPrey

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #2 on: 02 October 2012, 23:08:04 »
As indicated on p. 214, that is shots per magazine. TechManual covers adding ammo beyond the standard magazine.
any idea where (at least what section), I don't remember seeing anything about that unless we're talking Mission Equipment (TM pg. 262)

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In melee, you use Martial Arts. The Skill is needed when doing other things with the manipulator the GM may need to adjudicate (like pulling an injured baby out from under fallen debris without accidentally tearing its arm off....)
Well I was mainly talking melee combat.  The rules already state that if you are holding something in your hands in a battlesuit you use the appropriate skill (Melee weapons, small arms, etc.).  To be honest, with most humanoid suits, I can't really think of many situations you would need piloting specifically rather than whatever skill you would use if you were unaugmented, though if I were GMing I would err on piloting as suit weight goes up to wearable tank levels and other skills as it goes down to extra armor with some actuators.

Anyways, if Martial arts is Indeed the skill we use to claw someone with the suit's manipulator(s), the record sheets need erattaed because they currently have Manipulators already filled out on the weapons list with Pilot/BattleSuit in the skill column.

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Yup. Not mentioned, so we'll need to consider the errata.

Anything not given special AToW stats would basically be ignored for modifiers, so reactive and reflective BA armor would have no effect.
and what about the AP and BD of BA weapons added in TacOps?  I'm not really supposed to be using the mech scale numbers when I shoot people with BA mounted variable Speed Pulse lasers am I (to be honest, when I noticed the omission of advanced and experimental equipment from AToW, I expected they would be added in with AToWC since that's kind of like the TacOps of the RPG)?

The new munitions in TO also lack AToW stats, though that can be forgiven since it mostly pertains to vehicular units, I should remind you PBIs do have access to LRMs and SRMs (On a side note, I notice man portable LRMs use class C ordinance while BA LRMs use class D, all other missiles launchers have the same ordinance for both BA and Man portable versions, is this an error or does it imply that the missiles fired by a Coreon Far-Shot are different than what an LRM carrier or Hauberk fires).

I am also unsure of specifically what effect (if any) BA C3 (TO pg. 278-9) would have in AToW scale (does it let the whole squad use the range to target of the closest member, and if the squad or one of its members is closest to an enemy would another unit use the range of the closest trooper or the center-point of the BA squad?)

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Here, fluff is good enough for rules. That's your operational time: 24 hours standard, +12/+10 for Clan/IS Packs.
Good enough for me, just wanted an official response.


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Battle Armor-mounted support weapons use only one trooper to fire. For simplicity, the player can keep the squad together in close proximity to use the weapon, but that's really a GM's preference.
I was more talking about having to set up the weapon to fire and dismantle it to move with any real speed.  Without those, it really feels like it's just a bonus weapon.

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If your GM allows it, it's his own damned fault.
Agreed, though I had hoped there might be some sort of limit since it makes no sense for a BA to be able to carry a gun that weighs as much as the suit.  In fact, if I am not mistaken, BA lacks encumbrance rules entirely (A 'Mech suffers MP penalties if it carries too much mass in external cargo {ie. back pack}or a handheld weapon, docked ships and fighters with bombs have their thrust reduced, and humans' carrying capacity are limited by strength, so what limits BA?)

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They can't be critted, so they don't get marked.
So I can roll a crit on the same armor slot multiple times and the roll is outright ignored every single time?

Quote
Treat them as empty slots until jettisoned. Hits have no effect on the jettison feature.
erm, did you mean treat them as empty crits AFTER they are jettisoned?  I would think if the pack is not jettisoned, crits would break the item in question.

Speaking of which, IS suits with a Detachable missile launcher that has taken a crit but has not been jettisoned still can't jump, correct (or would damage cause them auto-jettison them the same as running out of ammo is supposed to auto-jettison them)?
 

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Yup. Still bleeding. Good thing Clan suits have HarJel, huh?
HarJel stops bleeding?  That's news to me

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Maybe, but you can also just keep adjusting the armor value line itself as well.
Drawing circles with a pen in the notes section and filling them in with a pencil as I take hits is a cleaner solution.

Quote
Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
  BattleTech
  Catalyst Game Labs
You're welcome and thank you
« Last Edit: 02 October 2012, 23:14:16 by BirdofPrey »

BirdofPrey

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #3 on: 22 November 2012, 11:32:38 »
My response may have hidden the questions but there are a few in there  just to speed things up here they are:

Along with the few pieces of Tac Ops BA equipment we have no rules for, there are a half dozen new BA weapons and a few new mech scale weapons with the AI tag.  Are there plans to give us personal scale AP and BD values for these?  A few of them have started appearing on designs in XTROs and, more importantly TRO:Prototypes. 

Similarly some ammunition types on TO might need AP/BD values (SRM LRM and Rocket munitions that could be loaded in BA and man portable launchers).  Also I notice man portable LRMs use class C ordinance while BA LRMs use class D, all other missiles launchers have the same ordinance for both BA and Man portable versions, is this an error or do BA missile launchers fire different ammunition than man portable launchers (also is this different ammunition from what mechs use)?

How does BA C3 function under AToW scale?  FOr other units, is distance to target measured from a specific trooper or the center of the formation, and does BA C3 provide any benefit to members of the same formation (ie. can the furthest member of the squad use the range to target of the closest member)


When I mentioned BA Support weapon mounts, I was more wondering if the weapon has to be assembled to fire but imposes movement penalties.

Any chance we can get BA encumbrance rules?

Finally:  Where does it say HarJel stops bleeding? (you guys really need to give the IS HarJel somehow, extra tonnage, takes a slot or three, whatever).


Once again, thank you for your time.

BirdofPrey

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2013, 15:13:48 »
Poke.

Still some folow up questions unanswered, and I would very much like to know if there's plans to errata in that gear from Tac Ops that could interact with infantry or is mounted on BA
For reference, the following weapons have an AI tag but no corresponding ATOW scale AP/BD values:
ER Flamer
Heavy Flamer
Small ER Pulse Laser
Small X-Pulse laser
all variable speed pulse lasers

Additionally, the following BA weapons in TO have no AP/BD values:
BA LB-X AC
BA Tube Artillery (though thinking maybe unnecessary here)
Heavy Flamer
Small and Medium ER Pulse Lasers
Small and Medium Variable Speed Pulse Lasers
Battle Armor Taser

The following pieces of BA equipment could possibly have an effect at AToW scale:
BA Myomer Booster We have a rule now, YAY
DWPs (do they modify the martial arts roll like unjettisoned DMPs?)
Reactive Armor
Reflective Armor
BA C3 System (not sure how its supposed to work when you're tracking individuals rather than squads)

Paul mentioned some things with regards to weight capacity
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26001.msg587406.html#msg587406
Can I take this as an official ruling and have Xotl add a line to AToW that BA use the same encumberance tables as regular troopers.  Also would Myomer boosters confer a strength bonus?

lastly, any updates on the status of errata on BA movement modes?



Thank you for your time, and thank you for bearing with me asking a bazillion questions.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2013, 20:03:00 by BirdofPrey »

Paul

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #5 on: 26 January 2013, 17:36:55 »
Poke.

Not forgotten, but no opportunity yet to resolve.



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Paul mentioned some things with regards to weight capacity
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26001.msg587406.html#msg587406
Can I take this as an official ruling and have Xotl add a line to AToW that BA use the same encumberance tables as regular troopers.  Also would Myomer boosters confer a strength bonus?

There's an errata planned that will differ from my initial thoughts.
Someone emitting something on the forums somewhere only becomes errata if it is actually submitted as errata.


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lastly, any updates on the status of errata on BA movement modes?

Likewise, there's an errata planned.


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Thank you for your time, and thank you for bearing with me asking a bazillion questions.

No problem, they help us close gaps, or make things better. Thanks for being patient with us.

BirdofPrey

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2013, 17:59:16 »
Not forgotten, but no opportunity yet to resolve.
Sometimes its hard to tell what's going on when a subject becomes complicated like this.

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There's an errata planned that will differ from my initial thoughts.
Someone emitting something on the forums somewhere only becomes errata if it is actually submitted as errata.
Exactly why I wanted to double check.

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Likewise, there's an errata planned.
Good to hear.

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No problem, they help us close gaps, or make things better. Thanks for being patient with us.
It's good to plug up holes.  Some things just slip through.  I didn't notice the lack of movement and encumberance rules till I tried writing up a BA character despite having owned AToW since it was a $10 beta test, and I didn't report the lack of TO gear since I just assumed it would end up worked into the companion somewhere (I should have listened to my teacher about what assuming does)

BirdofPrey

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #7 on: 19 February 2013, 20:23:01 »
Yay Eratta.   I took a moment to add DWPs to my list of items that could have an effect at AToW scale but don't currently have rules for (I would assume they would modify the martial arts and melee weapons similar to detachable missile packs), and I removed BA Myomer Boosters (list stands at 19 items).
===
To clarify the recent eratta to BA encumbrance and strength, these strength bonuses are only for encumbrance purposes, correct?  You would not apply these strength bonuses to melee attack damage would you?
 
Also, for determining the carrying capacity of generic troopers (TW, or NPC redshirts who don't get thier own char sheet), what is the average strength I should use (both for elemental and normal phenotypes)?

Again there's a few questions still unanswered a few posts up.


Again, thank you for your time and patience in dealing with my nit picks (also, is it about time I start a new thread just to deal with those few unanswered questions, or would you prefer I just keep adding here?)
« Last Edit: 19 February 2013, 20:25:55 by BirdofPrey »

Paul

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #8 on: 19 February 2013, 20:30:29 »
(list stands at 19 items).

We actually appreciate that. It really helps. Even if it takes us a while.


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To clarify the recent eratta to BA encumbrance and strength, these strength bonuses are only for encumbrance purposes, correct?  You would not apply these strength bonuses to melee attack damage would you?

Correct.


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Also, for determining the carrying capacity of generic troopers (TW, or NPC redshirts who don't get thier own char sheet), what is the average strength I should use (both for elemental and normal phenotypes)?

Elementals, I'd use STR8. Random infantry trooper, I'd use STR6. Random fit guy, I'd use STR4. Random civvie, I'd use STR2.


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Again, thank you for your time and patience in dealing with my nit picks (also, is it about time I start a new thread just to deal with those few unanswered questions, or would you prefer I just keep adding here?)

Thanks for your patience with us getting to them slowly...

Let's kick off a fresh thread with the remaining, then we'll leave that thread going until all questions are resolved.

Paul

BirdofPrey

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #9 on: 19 February 2013, 20:37:52 »
Elementals, I'd use STR8. Random infantry trooper, I'd use STR6. Random fit guy, I'd use STR4. Random civvie, I'd use STR2.
Civvies seem a bit low; isn't 4 in any attribute supposed to be the bog standard level?

Paul

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Re: AToW and AToWC BA questions
« Reply #10 on: 19 February 2013, 20:42:36 »
Civvies seem a bit low; isn't 4 in any attribute supposed to be the bog standard level?

Yes, for the exceptional individual you're creating with the ATOW construction rules.
If we're talking Joe Average Pencilpusher or Mary Soccermom, STR2 is going to be common.

I'd only rate my own (fat) self higher because I actually have to lift and haul stuff fairly often. I don't work out, and am not in particularly good shape.

Paul

 

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