Author Topic: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?  (Read 60122 times)

cawest

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #30 on: 03 March 2011, 00:04:03 »
 Parthian shots.

maybe you have read some of john ringos books.... maybe?  and a good call [rockon]

tekteam26

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #31 on: 03 March 2011, 06:32:40 »
Parthian shots.

maybe you have read some of john ringos books.... maybe?  and a good call [rockon]

I've read a lot of John Ringo's books....and even more of David Weber's

Waiting eagerly for the next Honor Harrington novel....
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idea weenie

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #32 on: 03 March 2011, 12:07:24 »
Has anyone priced an Essex vs the Grand Inquisitor?  That would be an idea about how many GI could be deployed to fight an Essex.  Just a tonnage comparison shows that you could get 12 Grand Inquisitors for a single Essex.

Now one idea might be satellites or ASF moving 1/2 (with drone controls?), designed to carry as many RL/10 as possible.  Weber Missile spam anyone?

tekteam26

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #33 on: 03 March 2011, 13:36:00 »
Has anyone priced an Essex vs the Grand Inquisitor?  That would be an idea about how many GI could be deployed to fight an Essex.  Just a tonnage comparison shows that you could get 12 Grand Inquisitors for a single Essex.

Now one idea might be satellites or ASF moving 1/2 (with drone controls?), designed to carry as many RL/10 as possible.  Weber Missile spam anyone?

To do a fair price comparison, you still have to include the cost of the transporting JumpShip as well as the PWS.
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wundergoat

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #34 on: 03 March 2011, 16:32:01 »
Another issue with comparing price is the cost of the production lines and rate of construction, which we do not have currently but may be in interstellar ops.  The fluff in strat ops points out that while the fly-away cost of a fox corvette is more than that of a mjolnir, the number of foxes produced out of the infrastructure tilts the balance towards the foxes.  In addition, you need to look at the unit costs and infrastructure costs for the additional elements like jumpships, fighters, and small craft along with the crew and pilot training.

ABADDON

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #35 on: 04 March 2011, 14:20:59 »
I've just read the argument in the GI thread and seriously, I have no idea why you cannot accept that wundergoat and fireangel made some valid points regarding this whole issue, which you were unable to falsify adequately.
From an outside perspective, the whole thing seems pretty clear...

Though I don't want to ignite another flame war...  :P
« Last Edit: 04 March 2011, 14:24:00 by ABADDON »

Hellraiser

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #36 on: 04 March 2011, 20:09:46 »
Quote
Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
Have DS rendered WS obsolete?
That's like asking has the ASF rendered the DS obsolete.

One does things the other has no ability to do, so its about more than combat performance.

That said, No, if it takes the largest Canon PWS to get any chance at all of taking down the smallest Canon WS then, again, no, I don't see how they can render them obsolete.
We can bring in over-sized NON-canon designs but in turn that means you have to bring in Non-Canon WS models. 

It all comes back to the basic capabilities of the chassis.
A WS can use Capitol IS and Capitol Weapons..........A DS can NOT.

Those 2 advantages alone mean that 1 on 1 the WS is nearly guaranteed to win out.

As for those canon examples, last I heard there were DOZENS (hundreds?) of Dragau(sp) assigned to Terra to take out those Warships, so this was no 1 v/s 1 or even 2 v/s 1 type fight, more like entire squadrons of Droppers to even the smallest warship.....and lets not even bring in the nukes or massive #s of drone fighters as well.

It comes down to the fact that anything a PWS can do, a WS can do, BETTER, and it can KF Jump.

That said, eventually economics will come into play and the ability to produce a DS on the ground in larger #s for cheaper costs does mean there is a place for them in the canon universe.

The way I see PWS used is similar to a Centurion or Trebuchet, IE, a poor mans replacement for a bigger unit (Archer/Tbolt).

They make a solid addition to a force but don't replace either a dedicated Carrier DS or a Warship completely.
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tekteam26

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #37 on: 05 March 2011, 18:53:43 »
Have DS rendered WS obsolete?
That's like asking has the ASF rendered the DS obsolete.

One does things the other has no ability to do, so its about more than combat performance.

That said, No, if it takes the largest Canon PWS to get any chance at all of taking down the smallest Canon WS then, again, no, I don't see how they can render them obsolete.
We can bring in over-sized NON-canon designs but in turn that means you have to bring in Non-Canon WS models. 

It all comes back to the basic capabilities of the chassis.
A WS can use Capitol IS and Capitol Weapons..........A DS can NOT.

Those 2 advantages alone mean that 1 on 1 the WS is nearly guaranteed to win out.

As for those canon examples, last I heard there were DOZENS (hundreds?) of Dragau(sp) assigned to Terra to take out those Warships, so this was no 1 v/s 1 or even 2 v/s 1 type fight, more like entire squadrons of Droppers to even the smallest warship.....and lets not even bring in the nukes or massive #s of drone fighters as well.

It comes down to the fact that anything a PWS can do, a WS can do, BETTER, and it can KF Jump.

That said, eventually economics will come into play and the ability to produce a DS on the ground in larger #s for cheaper costs does mean there is a place for them in the canon universe.

The way I see PWS used is similar to a Centurion or Trebuchet, IE, a poor mans replacement for a bigger unit (Archer/Tbolt).

They make a solid addition to a force but don't replace either a dedicated Carrier DS or a Warship completely.

It's kind of a moot point since no WarShips are being built and none are likely to be built in the near future, if ever. There are large PWS being built though, for example the Tiamat. And the canon says that they did kill WarShips at Terra and the other star systems where the WoB deployed mobile SDS units. The WoB might have had dozens of Dragau, but I don't believe that the canon says anything about them having "hundreds" of them by any means.

The point was trying to be made that no large PWS design, canon or non-canon, could stand up to a WarShip. I strongly disagree. You and a few others think that the opposite view is true. I know from my correspondence with others here that they support my viewpoint. I don't think that Fireangel, Wundergoat or the handful of other pundits have ever tried to run one or two Grand Inquisitors (GI) against something smaller that a heavy cruiser to see if they could beat the WarShip.

You're free to play your game as you please as is anyone else here. Some players are going to play with GI's and have tremendous fun with them bashing WarShips. That's cool with me. Other players like you won't touch a GI with a ten foot pole....and that is fine with me too.

Let's just agree to disagree on this without throwing around poisonous terms, OK?
« Last Edit: 05 March 2011, 19:03:31 by tekteam26 »
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Minemech

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #38 on: 05 March 2011, 19:21:06 »
 I think you should rephrase your question "Have drone pocket warships rendered  light warships obsolete."
At least thats what I read from your SDS post.

Emil

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #39 on: 05 March 2011, 22:02:01 »
You have your ideas of what a PWS should be. I have mine. Mine include larger vessels that carry their own supporting craft including significant fighters. I have always included the supporting fighters and small craft in my arguments as versus those who want to keep those separate. But now, you want to change the scenario to an 'apples versus oranges' to keep the fight going.

I am not interested the ever escalating arguments. If a large PWS can carry a bunch of fighters and bring them to the battle to defeat the Essex, life's rough for the WarShip commander. If you want to make it battlegroup versus battlegroup, then make it a ton for ton basis.....there, you can't win at all, even if the tonnage of the transporting JumpShip is included.

If a large PWS and all the subordinate craft that it carries defeats a WarShip and all the subordinate craft that it carries.....then it is a win for the PWS. If multiple PWS carried on a single Invader defeat the larger WarShip and the subordinate craft that it carries that include its DropShips....then it is also a win for the PWS.

Enough is enough

Why don't you guys play each other in some MegaMek games and settle the question?  If, after a half-dozen games, either the destroyer or the large PWS has a decisive advantage like 6-0 or 5-1, it'd be pretty clear who's right.

NightmareSteel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #40 on: 05 March 2011, 22:14:12 »
Or bot/bot, 20 runs.  But, realistically, Corvettes/Raiders have K-F Drives, which *still* makes them more useful for raiding.  Strategically, this question is silly.

Tactically it still has merit.  Obsolete?  Doubtful.  PWSs *do* allow a true battlewagon to bring it's own screen, which is handy.  PWSs are cheaper and don't have tonnage devoted to K-F drives, also handy.

I say, do the runs.  I'm curious.

In any event, ignoring strategy when dealing with WarShips, pocket or not, *is* kinda... sketchy, so in the final analysis, I say no.  But the result of the runs above *will* affect the strategy involved.

wundergoat

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #41 on: 07 March 2011, 14:49:38 »
The problem with doing runs, besides that I don't believe that MM has bot functionality in space yet, is that we never came to an agreement on what would be a valid scenario.

Is it heavy PWS versus destroyer?  This ignores the PWS fighter advantage.

Is it heavy PWS+fighters versus destroyer+fighters?  This brings up the issue of the destroyer likely relying on escorts to carry its fighters, especially if following Jellicoe's SL-era doctrine (man, I wish I had saved a copy of that). There is also the issue of the PWS each carrying a small aero-regiment and a pair should kill the dessie with fighters alone, so the combat capabilities of the PWS are indistinguishable from a big carrier.

Is it PWS battlegroup versus destroyer battlegroup?  What are appropriate battlegroups?  That would require that a ton of runs are done and analyzed and even then it would still likely be pretty obscure.


From experience, and I think fireangel can back me up here, PWS of any size die surprisingly quickly to big naval batteries when compared to true warships.  Meanwhile, warships are vulnerable to fighters so big fighter forces can kill them if they don't have proper support.  I don't think that these points are really arguable, so draw your own conclusions from that.

verybad

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #42 on: 07 March 2011, 16:49:00 »
PWS's havn't made Warships obsolete. They can perform many of the same roles at a lower cost, but in a one on one battle, almost any warship will wipe the floor with almost any PWS.

Once you bring up support, then it gets messy. As either side can take support, it's best to ignore that option.

Fiscally, PWS's provide a valid option for naval combat. PWS's aren't "Capital' ships however. Capital ships have the advantage of being much more survivable.

Look at the name. "Pocket Warship" They can provide an option other than a true warship, but they can't replace the role for heavy duty naval warfare except in large numbers...something battletech hasn't been keen on during the well supported playing era (ie 3025-Jihad+)

Any number of potential scenario's where PWS can take out warships are plausible, however in the long run, if I'm in a big fleet action, I'd rather be on the warship than the PWS. -and that probably holds true for most Fleet Admirals.
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Fireangel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #43 on: 07 March 2011, 21:40:37 »
I noticed that in all of your cases, you complete ignore the 40 aerospace fighter complement of the GI as well as the four boarding shuttles and BattleArmor marine complement. They would make a significant impact on the battle in any case with the Essex/Lola.

Let's get something straight; you state that the GI can handle "most warships smaller than a heavy cruiser". I have the numbers to show that this is simply not the case. The Essex is one of the "smallest" and "weakest" warships above a corvette,yet it does pose a deadly serious threat to the GI.

The York is a destroyer with 50 fighters, two dropships and can kill a GI in one volley. The Kyushu has four dropships, 18 fighters, 12 small craft and can doughnut a GI in a single volley. Heck, the Aegis,billed as a "heavy cruiser" is tonnage-wise a "plain vanilla cruiser" that can really ruin the day of any GI squadron.

It goes on and on.

You say that I'm not taking into account the GI's fighters, well, what fighters are they? Eisensturms? Daggers? Thrushes? What fighters does the warship have? How many Vengeance carriers are in the warship's battlegroup?

So you've got more than one GI bearing down on the warship. The warship's group can detach one of its dropships (detach from the group, not from the ship!) to go after the GI's jumpship, forcing the GI group to send something after it or risk getting stranded even if they win the battle.

Many of these "larger than a corvette/smaller than a heavy cruiser" ships can one-shot more than one GI at a time,regardless of approach angles. All the while surviving multiple hits from the GI's nose arc.

Now here's the crux of the matter; what does the GI do? If it closes to its SCC range, against most warships it will die. Period. No ifs ands or buts. Its SCCs are deadlier than practically any fighter squadron, so it will draw the lion's share of the warship's capital fire. Even if it survives the exchange, it will likely not be able to present its nose facing without risking a coring shot from one of the secondary batteries, so it will have to either retreat or engage with a much weaker facing in both damage potential and armour.

Of course, it could just stay at extreme range and engage with its capital missiles, which might not be such a good idea since many of these warships have extreme-range non-missile capital bays and AMS can render capital missile fire moot. More importantly,  that big and powerful 42-capital point bay is just dead weight, so the GI becomes a well-armoured carrier with capital-missile standoff capability.

Marines? Please. They have to survive the trip over and actually get inside a fully mobile warship.


So when all is said and done, for the anti-warship role you say it's perfect at, you have either an extremely overpriced carrier that will never use its primary weapon in its intended role OR you are willing and able to exchange one or more of these for the opportunity to damage (not destroy, except through sheer luck) one of the smaller, weaker warships of your enemy.

Is it a good design? Yes, absolutely. In a PWS-heavy environment it is a very good all-in-one surrogate warship capable of showing the flag and dealing effectively with most dropships out there.

But it is not well-suited for combat against warships. Period. Simple fact is, without the use of the nose bay, it's just a big carrier. If it dares use the nose bay it will die. Against the very few (3!) warships it can actually threaten with the nose bay, its ASF compliment and capital missiles should suffice.

And when I'm saying "exchange one or more of these" I mean "more than one." You'd need a pack of these attacking at once; if they don't attack at the same time thewarship can just end-over, yaw OR roll AND rotate one hexside (even a 2/3 thrust warship can manage this), PLUS  (if 3/5 or higher thrust) thrust one or more hexes at any point in its maneuver, bringing any facing or arc(s) it wishes to bear on any approaching GI. With the ability to either kill outright or take the GI's nose arc out of the equation, effectively taking the whole GI out of the fight.


Big PWS with capital-grade firepower/armour and 5/8 thrust with a whole fighter wing and supporting craft vs. a warship? Been there, done that with the Lak I & II since 2007. Note; the Laks actually can lose weapons arcs and not lose significant firepower the way the GI does.

Laks still die under significant capital fire once it closes to range. Its conventional bays have ranges quite comparable to the GI's SCC when using individual weapon ranges from SO. I even downgraded the design a bit and made the "baby" Lak, improving its performance as a missile boat, but if it gets inside the range of a warship's big guns, it still dies.

Big, fast PWS with single-bay superheavy firepower? The Morrigan (its entry is missing from the archives; I'll repost it soon) is a 7/11 (or 8/12) thrust assault dropship with one (or two!) 700-point PPC bays in the nose and enough armour to survive 70 capital point hits. Same story: entering the range of the enemy's big guns exposes it to crippling or killing counterfire. Even in pairs, fours and sixes, at best I'm trading several PWS for one warship.

I've played these scenarios many times over the past three years. PWS's, even super-classed ones with over 700 points of armour per facing die fast when facing ships that can one-shot them. The ONLY solution is to not bring them into range. Do that and even the GI is just an uparmoured Vengeance.

Marwynn

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #44 on: 07 March 2011, 21:57:31 »
In a way, yes.

The lighter WarShips' roles were limited to raiding or escort duties (or so the fluff says) and I believe the Inazuma was meant to pop DropShips. Lighter WarShips (of which the 610 kiloton Essex is surely not) aren't built to destroy other WarShips, especially heavier ones. That said, a PWS is still a DropShip, so those that aren't horribly underarmoured and underarmed would still excel in that.

Put it simply, PWS are the anti-DropShip. They can threaten WarShips given sufficient numbers and even destroy them, but their weapons are geared for killing other non-KF-core-using vessels. In the meantime, as the Great Houses rebuild, the navies will be mostly centred around PWS. Which is great, because PWS kill PWS really well.


So in short, they're not competing at all. PWS vs PWS. And Sub-Caps need a do-over in tonnages and efficiency, because SCLs are superior in all respects.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #45 on: 07 March 2011, 22:30:40 »
Interesting thought. How many light assault ships does it take to kill a heavy assault ship?

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #46 on: 07 March 2011, 22:33:06 »
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VhenRa

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #47 on: 07 March 2011, 22:43:12 »
One thing I have found is that Pocket Warships are near useless at providing orbital fire support.


Unless you are packing Light SCCs or SCL/1s you have to rely on missiles for fire support.

Gracus

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #48 on: 07 March 2011, 22:56:56 »
Why are they useless for fire support?
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #49 on: 07 March 2011, 23:00:53 »
Capital and sub-capital weapons with a range less than Long cannot cross the atmospheric divide.
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VhenRa

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #50 on: 07 March 2011, 23:13:17 »
And the only Sub-Capitals with a range of long are SCL/1s, Light SCCs and Pirahna Missiles thus limiting you to those and the old Capital missiles for orbital fire.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #51 on: 08 March 2011, 02:10:32 »
now that i think about it...we all know who...er... I mean what made warships obsolete....and it is PWS definitely PWS's not her...i mean anybody in particular, it was the PWS fault...yea thats it the PWS's fault. mmm hmmm...definitely! :-X ???
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VhenRa

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #52 on: 08 March 2011, 05:17:43 »
Huh?

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #53 on: 08 March 2011, 05:47:48 »
I think PWS are likely to replace light warships like corvettes (and maybe destroyers) for escort and picket duties.

As all the CBT navies realised (probably including the Snow Ravens, given their reaction to losing even a single warship), even the lightest warship is too valuable to be used in a role that often requires the escort to be sacrificed to save whatever even more valuable unit it is escorting.

And even those light warships aren't available in sufficient numbers to provide a decent escort screen for big warships.


PWS usage comes down to cost: TRO3085 shows that even with their severely damaged industries, all the new PWS designs are being deployed by the dozen

None of the navies can that match speed of production with 'true' warships.


PWS are also ideal for planetary defense: hard to produce enough warships to defend numerous worlds, and in that role their KF drives are kinda dead weight anyway.

Using PWS like that would also free up warships for other duties, or allow them to be concentrated at a central location to be used as a quick FTL response force.

The ability for the PWS dropships to land on the worlds they are defending is useful too.


I can see light warships being used primarily for raiding now, which is a role PWS can't do as well.

Probably see most navies concentrating less on small warships once they start rebuilding their fleets, with any light warship designed with 5/8 thrust, large fuel tanks and either energy weapon armaments or large amounts of ammunition.

Any surviving light warships that can't fulfill the raiding role (like the couple surviving Fox-class), will probably either be relegated to planetary defense duties for important worlds, or as PWS carriers if they have suffient docking collars.

NightmareSteel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #54 on: 08 March 2011, 05:51:19 »
This makes excellent sense.  I still think the raider/corvette will have a role, just as a purely offensive raiding platform useful for nibbling at the edges of the opposition's territory.  That and scouting runs.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #55 on: 08 March 2011, 06:04:15 »
Only existing WarShips will fill that role. By the Dark Age, opinion has well and truly swung against WarShips, due to the massive cost in building one and what it represents if it is lost... and memories of atrocities committed by the Word of Blake and Taurian Concordat remain fresh.
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tekteam26

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #56 on: 08 March 2011, 06:08:07 »
Actually large PWS can aid in the survivability of a smaller WarShip provided that the corvette/destroyer has docking collars. The large PWS gives the smaller WarShip its own potent escort not only against other PWS designs but also provides badly needed support against larger WarShips as well with a large PWS like the GI (Grand Inquisitor) having large fighter complements and a heavy punch in its own right.

An Inazuma carrying three GI's or a Fox carrying five GI's would certainly not be something whose threat can be underestimated.
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tekteam26

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #57 on: 08 March 2011, 06:23:23 »




Big, fast PWS with single-bay superheavy firepower? The Morrigan (its entry is missing from the archives; I'll repost it soon) is a 7/11 (or 8/12) thrust assault dropship with one (or two!) 700-point PPC bays in the nose and enough armour to survive 70 capital point hits. Same story: entering the range of the enemy's big guns exposes it to crippling or killing counterfire. Even in pairs, fours and sixes, at best I'm trading several PWS for one warship.

I've played these scenarios many times over the past three years. PWS's, even super-classed ones with over 700 points of armour per facing die fast when facing ships that can one-shot them. The ONLY solution is to not bring them into range. Do that and even the GI is just an uparmoured Vengeance.

The Aegis is considered by many to be a heavy cruiser, so that throws it out of consideration in any event.

So you built a PWS that uses hundreds of PPC's to munchkin up a 70 point battery that can only hit at point blank range. It's little wonder that it got killed so easily....

If you run scenarios designed to see how quickly you can kill a large PWS, doubtlessly you are going to get the result that you desire, especially when you start going 'but you can't use those fighters, that isn't fair'.

I still stand by my original statement. Of course, if you think that any battle between a single 50kton PWS versus a 700kton+ WarShip in inherently balanced, that kind of gives some idea of the bias that you have built into your scenarios. But the GI is a 'weapons system' with all of its elements; guns, missiles, heavy armor, fighters, marines, speed, etc being an integral package. Sure you can send a DropShip to go after the transporting JumpShip. That is the inherent weakness of any non-jump capable combat vessel used in an offensive role. If you design the scenario where that is possible and the JumpShip has no other protection than the one large PWS, well....you play with what you have.

Everyone, just enjoy playing your games. If you don't like the GI, don't use it. If you do like it, enjoy the possibilities. The GI certainly gives you a lot of those.
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Stormfury

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #58 on: 08 March 2011, 06:48:14 »
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An Inazuma carrying three GI's or a Fox carrying five GI's would certainly not be something whose threat can be underestimated.

Sure, but if you really want I can knock up a Behemoth Pocket WarShip laden with nukes and ASFs. With the designs we've seen so far in canon, not so much. Since the Fox is so slow and the Inazuma so lightly armed and armoured, and with both being so rare now (the Combine only has the Winds of Heaven and Night of Agony left, with Deiron now lost to them to boot...) they are not going to be deployed offensively. Defensively, they are better supplemented with other designs.

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So you built a PWS that uses hundreds of PPC's to munchkin up a 70 point battery that can only hit at point blank range. It's little wonder that it got killed so easily....

You do realise that that a PPC bay has the exact same range as an SCC-3, right? Medium Conventional is 12 hexes, as is Short Capital.

Even if you use the SO rules for individual ranges, the SCC-3 only has a two-hex advantage in range.

Then there's the not insignificant effect 70 weapons have on your Fire Control mass. The design in question is in fact less "munchinkined" than yours.

I realise it's your design and you are keen to defend it, but frankly the place for that was in your design thread. You requested that it be closed in response to the valid criticism of other posters here, thereby closing that avenue.

As it stands, PWS swarms are a threat to WarShips... depending on the type of PWS, the type of WarShip, and how many PWS you have. There are too many variables to give a more definitive answer.

Other than that, WarShips have already been rendered obsolete by IC and OOC concerns. WarShips are rare beasts now, and the PWS is the way of the future.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2011, 06:54:24 by Stormfury »
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Fireangel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #59 on: 08 March 2011, 08:47:10 »
The Aegis is considered by many to be a heavy cruiser, so that throws it out of consideration in any event.

Well, “considered by many” is not really quantifiable, is it? AT2R classifications place the HEAVY CRUISER category at 800,000-1,000,000 tons; at 750kt, the Aegis is NOT a heavy cruiser.

What about the York, Whirlwind, Kirishima, Kyushu…?

Maybe if you stated “destroyer size or smaller” you’d be closer to the truth, but I can think of quite a few frigates and destroyers who’d have a field day with a 4-boat squadron of Gis. Heck, if we allow custom designs for the warship, I can design a frigate that can wipe out six GI’s AND their fighters without breaking a sweat.

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So you built a PWS that uses hundreds of PPC's to munchkin up a 70 point battery that can only hit at point blank range. It's little wonder that it got killed so easily....

Nope. 70 ERPPCs make up a 70-capital point bay. That’s 490 tons for the PPCs and 245 tons for fire control. Add 1,050 tons for the single heat sinks and that one bay weighs in at 1,775 tons and outranges the GI’s SCC’s by 8 hexes in standard range categories AND in detailed individual ranges (20 hex HSSC v. 28 hex ERPPC extreme range [TO pp. 85]).

A two-bay Morrigan has 980 tons of ER PPCs and 1,078 tons of fire control. We can keep heat sink tonnage the same by upgrading to DHS. Total tonnage: 3,108. Still outrange the GI and still coming out ahead in tonnage.

And the “killed easily” part is addressed by the fact that the Morrigan has 864 points of standard armour in each facing; more than the GI. If the 7/11 (or 8/12) Morrigan is easily killed, then the GI is a cakewalk.

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If you run scenarios designed to see how quickly you can kill a large PWS, doubtlessly you are going to get the result that you desire, especially when you start going 'but you can't use those fighters, that isn't fair'.

Actually, I was playing the PWS side, defending my designs. The conclusions are unreproachable; if you close to the range of the warship’s one-shot-kill guns, the PWS is dead. The GI cannot close to the range of its SCCs without entering the range of the warship’s one-shot-kill bays AND even a 2/3 thrust warship can maneuver to bring these bays to bear on a PWS coming in from practically any vector.

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I still stand by my original statement.

Which is completely unsupported by fact.

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Of course, if you think that any battle between a single 50kton PWS versus a 700kton+ WarShip in inherently balanced, that kind of gives some idea of the bias that you have built into your scenarios.

This statement shows that you are completely ignoring the point I’m trying to bring. YOU are the one that states: “The Grand Inquisitor is a large PWS that would be deadly to any WarShip short of a heavy cruiser…”. Well, Heavy Cruisers start at 800kt. By your statement, the GI should be deadly to an Aegis.

Heck, given the time and the inclination I could probably build a mini-Aegis that loses none of its combat capabilities and not break 550kt.

Still stand by your original statement? Maybe you’d care to revise it to: “The Grand Inquisitor is a large PWS that would be deadly to any Star League era WarShip short of a destroyer…”.

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But the GI is a 'weapons system' with all of its elements; guns, missiles, heavy armor, fighters, marines, speed, etc being an integral package.

And where, precisely, does the SCC bay in the nose come into the equation? The AAA SCLs and conventional bays are great against fighters and dropships, but suck against even the weakest warships. The capital missiles can be neutralized by AMS and the fighters can be countered by other fighters.

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Sure you can send a DropShip to go after the transporting JumpShip. That is the inherent weakness of any non-jump capable combat vessel used in an offensive role. If you design the scenario where that is possible and the JumpShip has no other protection than the one large PWS, well....you play with what you have.

Which illustrates why PWS alone can never “obsolete” warships. They may make certain classes or designs of warships obsolete (like some SL designs), but not warships as a whole. The fact that warships are disappearing from the IS is not due to PWS but due to both out-of-game considerations and in-universe politics. A well-designed warship can render PWS a moot point, especially with a well-balanced task force of supporting elements.

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Everyone, just enjoy playing your games. If you don't like the GI, don't use it. If you do like it, enjoy the possibilities. The GI certainly gives you a lot of those.

Curiously enough, this weekend I’ll be playing a Lak task force v. two GI task forces. I’ll keep y’all posted on that.

 

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