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Author Topic: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?  (Read 1825 times)

Thunderbolt

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Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« on: 28 July 2019, 14:39:13 »
What? No. I'm not saying they use the same method of communication as HPGs. They both use hyperspace, yes, but they use hyperspace differently. and its really not me saying anything myself, its stated in the 3039 historical. Black Boxes DO use hyperspace. They don't use it the same way other things do.
You could all be completely correct, all your words are all mutually compatible

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=37799.0

HPGs and BBs both transmit & receive information to & from hyperspace (HS), that higher-dimensional "transcendent realm" surrounding our fabric of space-time (FoST).  The FoST, being a "membrane" in HS, has two hypersurfaces, and divides HS into two separated domains -- much as Flatland has a "top" and "bottom" surface.  For sake of argument, allow us to call those domains "super-space" and "sub-space" for those regions "above" and "below" the FoST.

HPG transmissions are highly focused & directional, whereas BBs transmit into HS in all directions.  According to this picture, it's hard to imagine BBs having the range of the more focused & tightly beamed HPGs.  BBs would plausibly be able to intercept HPG traffic, however those much higher-powered transmissions (especially from large ground-based installations) would plausibly fry the smaller & more mobile BB circuitry very quickly?

One possible advantage of the less-power-efficient, less-secure BBs is that you would be able to simultaneously transmit intra- as well as inter-system.  Your HS broadcasts would propagate "over" the "gravity wells" of stars & planets in-system, through super-space, to any awaiting receivers on the "far side of the gravity well".  Meanwhile, your broadcasts would also emanate "out" into subspace, "under" the FoST, and travel towards remote systems lightyears distant.

HPGs, presumably configured for long-range inter-stellar sub-space band communications, would plausibly not be sensitive super-space band signals:


« Last Edit: 28 July 2019, 14:45:45 by Thunderbolt »

Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #1 on: 28 July 2019, 15:17:01 »
tangentially, as suggested above, the "gravity wells" of curvature, imputed into the FoST, by massive objects, would plausibly interfere with subspace channel traffic, casting "subspace shadows".  Would be no problem if you could switch to transmitting on superspace channels, for in-system messaging.  However, much as planets' gravity wells can interfere with HS JS traffic to/from pirate points, so too they would plausibly equally interfere with many subspace channel HS transmissions, aimed at targets behind & visually eclipsed by the body:






Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #2 on: 29 July 2019, 09:47:56 »
The picture described above could easily account for the immunity of BBs to the HS EW/EMP, which would plausibly affect primarily the "sub-space" channel of HS communications

Surely, virtually all HPGs are configured for long-range, inter-stellar communications, and so have been attuned to the "sub-space" traffic channel exclusively

whereas BBs transceive to/from both HS channels, "sub-space" & "super-space", so can continue to function on the superspace band (which might be limited to intra-system messaging)

moreover, plausibly, BBs are mobile, generally fitted to vessels intentionally moved about in random & unpredictable ways... whereas the "Gray Monday" "super-White-Noise" HS EW/EMP may be targeting known fixed installations (through the subspace channel) only

random thought just to toss out there, the WoB occupied the BP & Terra for 13 years after the 3068 "White-Noise" "field test" and the "Gray Monday" blackout has persisted for 13 years from 3132-45, correct ?

glitterboy2098

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #3 on: 29 July 2019, 13:27:35 »
i'm wary of using any fan made model of how something works that requires the universe to be two dimensional, and would retcon literally everything in the canon about HPG's, black boxes, and KF related technologies.
« Last Edit: 29 July 2019, 21:19:20 by glitterboy2098 »

truetanker

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #4 on: 30 July 2019, 01:38:01 »
Can a ship-borne HPG, aka Mobile HPG be used in the Dark Age or will it too be effected?

TT
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #5 on: 30 July 2019, 01:40:28 »
i'm wary of using any fan made model of how something works that requires the universe to be two dimensional, and would retcon literally everything in the canon about HPG's, black boxes, and KF related technologies.
Maybe you misunderstood. The fabric of space time is already 4 dimensional and hyperspace would add more beyond that. 

And the picture above is just an interpretation of Canon descriptions which is completely consistent with them.  Certainly in game terms. Sorry for any confusion.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #6 on: 30 July 2019, 20:40:43 »
the model you describe would only work with a two dimensional spacetime. it also contradicts literally everything the BT canon has about KF drives, HPGs, and black boxes.

Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #7 on: 30 July 2019, 21:28:29 »
the model you describe would only work with a two dimensional spacetime. it also contradicts literally everything the BT canon has about KF drives, HPGs, and black boxes.
it's only a cartoon visualization, but one that is industry standard

We can only think in 3D, and so can only visualize curvatures of the fabric of space time in 1-2D

Rudy Rucker has excellent books and references for helping you visualize and qualitatively comprehend curvature

And no no game rules or story lines require the slightest update, give me an example of what you think changes?

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #8 on: 30 July 2019, 22:06:47 »
Can we use smaller images please

glitterboy2098

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #9 on: 30 July 2019, 22:46:49 »
it's only a cartoon visualization, but one that is industry standard

We can only think in 3D, and so can only visualize curvatures of the fabric of space time in 1-2D

Rudy Rucker has excellent books and references for helping you visualize and qualitatively comprehend curvature

And no no game rules or story lines require the slightest update, give me an example of what you think changes?

actually no the images are not the problem. the mechanisms you describe can only work in a two dimensional spacetime, once you add in the third dimension, much less the higher dimensions, they cease work. further they make assumptions actively contrary to the mechanics of HPGs and KF drives as described the fiction and sourcebooks. it requires interaction with a seperate universe, when we have been multiple times that KF technologies operate within out own universe just at a higher dimensional level (that is, more the 3+1 of physical space and time) that allows temporary shortcuts between points. further your model requires actual physical travel and travel time, when we have been told multiple times that KF technologies operate on an instant teleportation middle with no actual travel between the beginning and end points of the jump. likewise your claims about gravity wells make little sense, even if we generalize things to avoid the flaws in your model, the fact is that there is absolutely no evidence that gravity wells have an effect on HPG's, or that the spatial configuration of a system's orbital bodies has any impact on HPG's, and in fact we have evidence to he contrary, given that their transmissions are described in instantaneous transport terms. HPG's literally teleport a signal to the destination, in simialr way that KF drives teleport ships, only since they are moving something massless they can get away with more gravity interference than a ship can.

my suggestion is to move your speculations on alternative models for FTL transport and communications (for that is what they are) to their own thread in the Fan Designs and Rules Thread, and stop cluttering up serious discussions with what can only be described as a thread hijacking.

Firesprocket

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #10 on: 31 July 2019, 01:12:53 »
my suggestion is to move your speculations on alternative models for FTL transport and communications (for that is what they are) to their own thread in the Fan Designs and Rules Thread, and stop cluttering up serious discussions with what can only be described as a thread hijacking.
How do you hijack a 5 year old thread exactly?

Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #11 on: 31 July 2019, 07:00:31 »
Live TV journalists are able to bounce their signals off of buildings until they zigzag out of the urban jungle and up out to their awaiting satellites, more bounces just requires more power.  Journalists can also push signal through buildings in some circumstances.

the visualizations I'm relying on for qualitative accuracy -- to my knowledge justified by the "Nash embedding theorem" which proves that you could embed any well-behaved space in a sufficiently higher dimensional hyperspace -- would suggest that you could plausibly aim an HPG signal at an empty patch of space-time, at which some of the signal would (as always) absorb (into the patch of space-time, as say gravity waves, or the mass-energy within it, as say sudden temperature spike) / reflect (back out into subspace) / transmit (through the fabric of spacetime out into superspace)

You could plausibly use the reflected and/or transmitted hyper-signals to scatter to hidden units lurking in system, without directly alerting system authorities or HPG operators to the transmission. 

Meanwhile, those same TPTB could also plausibly detect such faint signals and/or gravitational waves and eventually compile enough evidence to track the hidden units?

so once again, I think a scientifically-sensible (so far as we know) and yet completely canon-consistent picture of hyperspace offers the community intriguing plausibilities for adventures and "Tucker Harwell" scenarios


glitterboy2098

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #12 on: 31 July 2019, 15:05:34 »
How do you hijack a 5 year old thread exactly?
why would someone resurrect a 5 year old thread to post material unrelated to the topic of the thread?

thread resurrection is not an issue, if the topic is still worth discussing (this certainly is), though it is in slightly bad taste. but resurrecting an old thread to post material unrelated to the topic is very much looked down on, particularly poorly thought out fan made material that has been spammed across multiple threads in similar fashion yet has yet to appear in a dedicated thread in the appropriate location on the forums.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #13 on: 31 July 2019, 15:12:55 »
Can a ship-borne HPG, aka Mobile HPG be used in the Dark Age or will it too be effected?

TT
we have mixed information there. early novels and source material established that mobile HPG's on warships were a major advantage certain factions had, later materials imply that all HPG's would be effected, without stating anythign about ship based ones.
i would presume that mobile HPGs, especially ship based ones, probably were not effected by the sabotage or attacks of grey monday, and that the interference that effects ground HPG's probably effects ship based ones to the same degree. i would presume however that mobile HPG's would be on of the main ways the IS would study that interference, if they had the ability to coordinate several for the job (unlikely given the wars). sending test signals from various locations around the IS, to see if the effect changes in strength, and if so, whether it can be localized to a specific location of locations.

Frabby

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #14 on: 31 July 2019, 17:02:39 »
Couldn't find a reference at a quick glance, but I'm fairly certain that TPTB explicitly said when queried that yes, mobile HPGs were affected as well. (Or was this about Clan HPGs? Not sure.)
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SCC

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #15 on: 01 August 2019, 03:11:53 »
Couldn't find a reference at a quick glance, but I'm fairly certain that TPTB explicitly said when queried that yes, mobile HPGs were affected as well. (Or was this about Clan HPGs? Not sure.)
Assuming that the Mobile HPG is working, that is it wasn't affected by the virus, the only reason it won't work in places would be the theory that the virus caused the HPG's it affected to somehow alter local space-time to prevent transmissions must be true.

Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #16 on: 01 August 2019, 04:01:13 »
Assuming that the Mobile HPG is working, that is it wasn't affected by the virus, the only reason it won't work in places would be the theory that the virus caused the HPG's it affected to somehow alter local space-time to prevent transmissions must be true.
that would be consistent with the Gray Monday hyperspace EW noise affecting an entire target system?

Polar Network = Mars to Luyten, even if earth mars system was unaffected, if luyten was targeted in advance it would disrupt the chosen test link??

Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #17 on: 01 August 2019, 04:05:25 »
Stan Gibilisco's Understanding Einstein's Theories discusses hyperspace communications.  Because HS is very high dimensional, signals spread out very quickly in very many directions, and so decay in strength very much faster than 1/r2

So, for a class-A HPG to propagate a HS signal 70% farther than a class-B would require much much much more transmission power, all else being equal

Of course, they could also utilize larger antennae with more focused beams

WoB super HPGs have a quantum leap more range, very difficult to explain as purely a power boost… much larger antennae with much more tightly focused beams is the only obvious option

The SL experimented with integrating HPGs across multiple star systems for super long baseline interferometry, in the fabric of space time

The FC linked New Avalon and Tharkad with integrated HPGs for real time communication through hyperspace

The WoB maybe upgraded the transmission signal strength of their class A stations to say class AA+ with a slightly increased range of say 60lyr, though not pushing that point heavily

Plausibly, the WoB put two and two together and integrated all of their upgraded class-AA+ first circuit HPGs (~60lyr individually at higher power), with real time data links, for super long baseline interferometry, for super focused hyperspace signals (~900lyr integrated collectively) ?

If so a super HPG is not simply a single site, but a network of hyper linked facilities?  Distributed across an entire star system or even multiple star systems, e.g. All of the class A installations within the WoB BP

SCC

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #18 on: 01 August 2019, 04:49:45 »
that would be consistent with the Gray Monday hyperspace EW noise affecting an entire target system?

Polar Network = Mars to Luyten, even if earth mars system was unaffected, if luyten was targeted in advance it would disrupt the chosen test link??
No, from what I understand this is a permanent change to local hyperspace preventing transmission, not some kind of jammer.

Stan Gibilisco's Understanding Einstein's Theories discusses hyperspace communications.  Because HS is very high dimensional, signals spread out very quickly in very many directions, and so decay in strength very much faster than 1/r2
-Snip-
No, on so many levels. Strategic Operations absolutely clear with no room for wriggle room on this, that Hyperspace in BT, at least as it pertains to K-F physics, is the mathematical definition and NOT the common one seen in science fiction, so dude stop treating it like it is.

Frabby

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #19 on: 01 August 2019, 05:38:22 »
Assuming that the Mobile HPG is working, that is it wasn't affected by the virus, the only reason it won't work in places would be the theory that the virus caused the HPG's it affected to somehow alter local space-time to prevent transmissions must be true.
As far as I'm aware, it's been established that it's the medium that kills HPGs (in addition to sabotage, attacks, and apparently a virus/malware). In A Bonfire of Worlds, a completely new HPG built from all-new components from all-new factories, that never received any transmission, still burned out. It couldn't have been affected by a virus and it wasn't attacked.

The "Clarion Note" protocol that was enacted by means of a SHPG supposedly altered the hyperspace medium in a way that wrecked the HPG cores of older HPGs. It was said (in Ghost War, iirc) that it was the newer stations that were attacked to bring them down.
So the theory behind what's happening should be known - newer HPGs are shielded against the Clarion Note effect, so somebody saw a neccessity for a design change somewhere, for some reason, back during the Star League days when these HPGs were all built.

There's a fan theory that Clarion Note and Fortress Republic, two edge case KF physics protocols that happened to overlap, somehow interact(ed) in unforeseen ways, exacerbating the HPG problem.

Stan Gibilisco's Understanding Einstein's Theories discusses hyperspace communications.
What SCC said. You're working off a misconception here.
BattleTech's Kearny-Fuchida "hyperspace" is a purely fictional and poorly defined thing; but we do know that it doesn't exist as a space to move through. Jumps are effectively teleportation, without moving through any space in-between. And HPGs simply teleport electromagnetic waves. No dishes, antennae, or beams that could be focused are involved in sending out a HPG message.
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truetanker

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #20 on: 01 August 2019, 08:49:17 »
Still not an answer.

I repeat.

Can a ship-borne HPG, aka Mobile HPG be used in the Dark Age or will it too be effected?

And I'll further state, ANY clan or otherwise.

Looking not for permanent ground base, but a Mobile one. See I play clans, specifically Stone Lions. Which means I can use the Septicemia Z which has a Mobile HPG. ( I want to say 15 AU is considered long distance. ) I also want to say this leads us to the standard Hunter-class jumper and Snow Raven's Titan Monitors.

And then when I play IS, it leaves me nothing on the ground or aero that mounts an official Mobile HPG. But I can always pod mount it to something!

So is the network broken for all everywhere or can I use it in-system to notify allies / support?

I know Ground based Class-C thru A stations are offline, but are mobile ones that haven't been used before?

TT
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #21 on: 01 August 2019, 11:17:51 »
The K-F drive moves the ship from real space in to hyperspace, and then back in to real space at another set of coordinates.  So, the position changes twice for a single desired alteration of real space coordinates

it involves moving to another space, hyperspace, and then returning from hyperspace at a different real space location.  The movement isn't in any traditional sense…true. The amount of time spent in hyperspace is either so small or so untraceable, that plotting it is currently not a practical matter, however.

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #22 on: 01 August 2019, 18:54:26 »
Stan Gibilisco's Understanding Einstein's Theories discusses hyperspace communications.  Because HS is very high dimensional, signals spread out very quickly in very many directions, and so decay in strength very much faster than 1/r2

No, on so many levels. Strategic Operations absolutely clear with no room for wriggle room on this, that Hyperspace in BT, at least as it pertains to K-F physics, is the mathematical definition and NOT the common one seen in science fiction, so dude stop treating it like it is.
we do know that it doesn't exist as a space to move through. Jumps are effectively teleportation, without moving through any space in-between.

That thing about signals decaying faster *is* part of the mathematical definition; that mathematical definition (at least the real life version) doesn't negate the need to physically move through the intervening distance; and neither the explanation in StratOps, nor the observation that jumps are nearly instantaneous, rule out the things Thunderbolt suggested.

Quote
And HPGs simply teleport electromagnetic waves. No dishes, antennae, or beams that could be focused are involved in sending out a HPG message.

I believe Cray has opined as much in forum discussions, but do the published texts actually say so? Offhand, I don't recall the relevant machinery being described in enough detail.
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #23 on: 01 August 2019, 23:24:42 »
Well, still think everyone is basically correct

Many are saying "teleport" -- yes, exactly, that is perfectly precisely what it looks like to everyone else within the fabric of space time…

Looks just like you disappear from one space time location, and more or less immediately reappear in some other location

Looks just like you're "teleporting" so that is a perfectly valid description of the fabric of space time side of things

And there's also more to the story, just tack on the hyperspace side of the story too -- propagation through the higher dimensions to the destination back in the fabric of space time -- and everyone is on the same hyperspace frequency

It is scientifically as well as science fictionally possible to reconcile essentially everything everyone has posted so far in this thread :)

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Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #24 on: 02 August 2019, 15:06:20 »
Ok, y'all. I'm ruling this as off topic so I split off the thread and put it in fan designs and also locked the original thread. Feel free to continue discussing here.
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Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #25 on: 10 August 2019, 14:31:31 »
Per Mr. Evans @ Gencon " they may be affected too, we'll see in the future " so it's as close to an answer as I can get...

Meaning Clan Mobile HPGs onboard vessels may or may not be working due to the Grey Monday / Clarion Note syndrome. Dev fiat and all.

TT
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Thunderbolt

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Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #26 on: 31 August 2019, 11:38:01 »
Per Mr. Evans @ Gencon " they may be affected too, we'll see in the future " so it's as close to an answer as I can get...

Meaning Clan Mobile HPGs onboard vessels may or may not be working due to the Grey Monday / Clarion Note syndrome. Dev fiat and all.

TT
According to Relativity, FTL is equivalent to TT (time travel) (in some judiciously chosen reference frames)

think you could argue, based on the arrow of time, that the past is irrecoverable, past regions of the fabric of space-time are "frozen & locked in", all of the "quantum uncertainty" has already "wave-function collapsed"...

meaning past regions of the fabric of space-time have already "made up their minds" and "made final decisions" about what actually occurred then & there...

such that if you tried to jump (or HPG transmit) into the past, those past regions of space-time fabric would have zero capacity to "integrate / accommodate" your "after-the-fact" late-arriving signals...

such that any attempt to jump / HPG into the past would "scatter hard" off of those regions of space-time fabric -- you would not be able to re-integrate / re-embed into them, and your matter / energy would scatter off back out into hyperspace (?)

However, future regions of space-time are still "fresh" and "pliable" and "pregnant with possibilities", including maybe-just-maybe you & your HPG signals being there...

So, while an "irreversible arrow of time" argument could (at least) hand-wave a justification for TT into the past being impossible...

I can't myself come up with any way to avoid the conclusion that hyperspace travel could (in principle) TT into the future.  Didn't the LCS Invincible misjump into its future, or something like that?  Just offering speculations that might be interesting for the community  :)


Thunderbolt

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Re: Working HPGs in the Dark Age?
« Reply #27 on: 01 September 2019, 01:49:02 »


Speculation on how HPGs transceiver HP signals

"Pumping" signals "out" into HS plausibly requires immense energy -- why it doesn't naturally happen all on its own

So, "dropping" signals back "in" to the fabric of space-time plausibly releases equally immense energy

An HPG installation could plausibly capture that energy & store it, reusing the same on its own next transmission...

Very plausibly, one doesn't have to use HPG circuitry to receive a signal from HS... however, given the above, you would still need to "diffuse" or "defray" all of those enormous HS "carrier" energies... with equally enormous, specialized, capacitor / resistor / absorber circuitry

or else your measly conventional radio circuitry would fry instantly:


 

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