Why the Clans lost

[Cannon_Fodder]

They lost because the writers needed them too. The game wouldn't be nearly as fun if the Clans made it to Terra.

[Stormfury]

Ulric had Natasha to help him. She knew how the fight the IS forces. The other Clans didn't have that kind of help.

Natasha didn't show up until Ulric had planned and executed the Periphery and first two waves, so her help doesn't really explain it.

What gave Ulric his edge was the way he and the Wolves studied the Dragoon reports and made a point of fighting smart.

[SteveRestless]

Given that the dragoons HAD been reporting back for some time, its really rather unacceptably dumb for the clans to have expected everyone in the sphere to know the first thing about how the clans fight. I'm not saying that they should have abandoned their methods, I'm saying they should have included a primer on clan combat and what to expect, along with their batchalls.

[Traecer Revenant]

Honestly, I think the biggest reason was the ramming of the Dire Wolf which killed Leo Showers and broke the momentum of the Clans.  Up until that point the IS had been scrambling forces in piecemeal with no good information and getting slaughtered, but the break to elect a new ilKhan gave them time to rebuild, get forces into position, and work out counter strategies.

Of course, even so nothing could have saved the IS if the Clans did not stick to their honor code because they could have smashed all IS military assets from orbit and crushed the survivors with an overwhelming assault with superior numbers of superior units.

^ This  O0

I think just about everyone in this thread so far has made some good points, but I believe the ramming of the Dire Wolf is the singular action that led to the Clans' failure.  The Clan commanders' return to Strana Mechty took a year, a year in which the IS nations had time to refit and devise new tactics, and a year for the ComGuards to study their foes and test out their SL-era weapons.  If the invasion had continued, even if some of the Clans were slower than others, it would have put continuous pressure on the IS militaries and they would never have had enough time to recover.  Also, Luthien would have fallen much faster, as Davion would never have sent the Dragoons and Kell Hounds to help defend it.

[StCptMara]

Why did the Clans lose?

1) Their Aerospace forces did not know how to dogfight, and were too concerned with personal glory rather following the
     Wingman tactics used by the Inner Sphere

2) They dismissed the intelligence they received from the Wolf's Dragoons

3) They trusted ComStar.

4) They did not adapt to the Inner Sphere deception and dishonourable tactics quickly enough.

[Shin_Fenris]

3) They trusted ComStar.

That'll do it every time.

[jklantern]

That'll do it every time.

Wait, so I SHOULDN'T have given ComStar keys to my house?

[joechummer]

1) Their Aerospace forces did not know how to dogfight, and were too concerned with personal glory rather following the
     Wingman tactics used by the Inner Sphere

Being that a Point is defined as the smallest effective military deployment, a Point of aerospace fighters or a Point of Elementals that do not act in concert for mutual benefit are only shooting themselves in the foot.  Sure there might be a spirit of competition between Pointmates, but a Point that completely ignores its unity for the sake of individual glory is only going to reap quick destruction, so I don't think saying the Clans don't believe in he concept of wingmen is a valid statement.

A more fair (and more accurate) point would be that Inner Sphere aerojocks (and vehicle crews, for that matter) are simply not as skilled as Spheroid pilots (and vee crews).  The average Spheroid aerojock is a 4/5;  the average Clan pilot is 5/6 (if I'm not mistaken), as are Clan vehicle crews.

[Shin_Fenris]

Wait, so I SHOULDN'T have given ComStar keys to my house?

Not unless you enjoy someone rifling through your underwear drawer, drinking all of the beer in the fridge, and ordering a LOT of pay-per-view adult entertainment.

Oh, wait, that's not ComStar, that's my ex. :P

[jklantern]

Not unless you enjoy someone rifling through your underwear drawer, drinking all of the beer in the fridge, and ordering a LOT of pay-per-view adult entertainment.

Oh, wait, that's not ComStar, that's my ex. :P

Sounds like my brother, actually.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Being that a Point is defined as the smallest effective military deployment, a Point of aerospace fighters or a Point of Elementals that do not act in concert for mutual benefit are only shooting themselves in the foot.  Sure there might be a spirit of competition between Pointmates, but a Point that completely ignores its unity for the sake of individual glory is only going to reap quick destruction, so I don't think saying the Clans don't believe in he concept of wingmen is a valid statement.

A more fair (and more accurate) point would be that Inner Sphere aerojocks (and vehicle crews, for that matter) are simply not as skilled as Spheroid pilots (and vee crews).  The average Spheroid aerojock is a 4/5;  the average Clan pilot is 5/6 (if I'm not mistaken), as are Clan vehicle crews.

Clan pilots are 3/4 like the mechwarriors, IIRC.

[joechummer]

Clan pilots are 3/4 like the mechwarriors, IIRC.

I'm going to have to look this up later, cos I could swear that the average Clan pilot could not measure up to the average IS pilot, and that their default skills reflected this...

But then again, I've been wrong before  ;D

[Stormfury]

Clan ASF pilots have the same skill levels as IS ones.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Guess we were both wrong joe.   :)

[Kit deSummersville]

To quote a great man, "It ain't over until it's over."

[StCptMara]

Being that a Point is defined as the smallest effective military deployment, a Point of aerospace fighters or a Point of Elementals that do not act in concert for mutual benefit are only shooting themselves in the foot.  Sure there might be a spirit of competition between Pointmates, but a Point that completely ignores its unity for the sake of individual glory is only going to reap quick destruction, so I don't think saying the Clans don't believe in he concept of wingmen is a valid statement.

The thing is: in every fiction depiction I have read from a Clan perspective of an Aerospace fighter: they do not think about
their wingman, they are focusing on what they, personally, are doing. Consider as well that the Clans deploy 2 ASF against
2 ASF, so that they each engage one fighter in a point. They might stick somewhat together, but they are certainly not doing
what the Inner Sphere would be doing of one lance(2 fighters) going in, and concentrating fire on one target, moving to support
and protect each other.

Personally, I attribute that to the fragility of Clan fighters compared to Inner Sphere fighters. The Clans know that one good
salvo will either kill or cripple most similar fighters to the one they are in, while the Inner Sphere know that most similar fighters
require a concentrated, and pro-longer period of damage to take down.

As we all know, Aerospace Superiority is the key to victory. The Clans could never achieve that, since they could not fight the
Inner Sphere pilots in the same tactical manner due to the way they have learned to fight from fighting other Clan Warriors and
the limitations of their equipment.

[joechummer]

I don't think the rules of zellbrigen apply as stringently to aerospace fighters as they do to 'Mechs.  I'd think the two elements in a Point of fighters would be legally allowed to engage an enemy Point of fighters in whatever way they choose, either by engaging in 2 one-on-one dogfights or by massing their fire or by having one fighter lead or bait an enemy fighter into its Pointmate's sights.  It's only when two whole Points mass their fire against another Point that would violate zell, at least IMHO.

A big part of where the Clans' aerospace disparity came from was that they would often mostly or completely bid away their aerospace assets and go in using only DropShips and ground forces.  And when you only bid a Star or two of aerofighters and the enemy's got several squadrons ready to fly against them, the advantage is clearly going to go to the defender.

[Neufeld]

Personally, I attribute that to the fragility of Clan fighters compared to Inner Sphere fighters.

This gets repeated a lot, but studying the armor of Succession War Inner Sphere fighters reveals that they have comparable armor (but with more spread both downward and upward) to the Clan fighters. The flying brick concept only really caught on after the Clan Invasion, and is mostly represented in the TRO3067 and later designs.
Average armor: IS second-line: 36.67%, Clan second-line: 34.44%, IS omni: 47.41%, Clan omni: 41.15%
It is mostly a case of the older the fighter, the less armor does it have.

[Aajav-Khan]

1) Logistics. Lack of experience of large scale engements, actual war in other words.
2) Intelligence. What intelligence? Despite the WD mission they chose to hear what they wanted to hear.
3) Military competence. Incompetence that is. Bidding? Trials? The SLDF was in its heyday the master of large scale warfare in all its forms. The Clans promptly forgot all the lessons their forefathers had learned and turned war into neat little games.
4) Psychology. Arrogance will make you underestimate your opponents. Underestimations cause you to make mistakes. Mistakes will cost you the war.

[Istal_Devalis]

What it comes down to is that the Clans really have no one to blame but themselves...no matter how much they try to pass the buck. (A very human trait that)

The only thing Ulric did to hamper the Clans was to assign the Reserve Clans with Clans they didnt particularly like.  (And in the Nova Cat's case, the results were the Jags trying to shaft the Cats, not the other way around).  Ulric otherwise gave plenty of good advice on how to proceed.  Advice everyone mostly ignored.