Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt  (Read 45566 times)

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16611
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« on: 21 December 2012, 17:06:57 »
Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt

The Thunderbolt is one of the oldest BattleMechs in the game, reaching back to an era when the Unseen were not just seen, they were it, and with an introduction date in 2491, it's not exactly a spring chicken in the game's fictional history.  One of the last primitive BattleMechs of the Inner Sphere, the original TDR-1C Thunderbolt was put into production by Earthwerks at the behest of the CCAF's desire for more 'Mechs at a consistent quality level.  The earliest effective generalist 'Mech, the Thunderbolt helped define the trooper role it's come to epitomize over the years, especially after production spread to other realms.  The TDR-5S became one of the standard 'Mechs of the Star League Defense Force through the Succession Wars, even picking up a Royal variant, and served with distinction in every Inner Sphere realm and the major Periphery states through the Succession Wars.  It's bitterly ironic that those same wars put the design not only out of production in its home realm but actually severely curtailed its numbers, leaving the Capellans buying production runs from Steiner or the Taurians.  The Concordat itself uses the Thunderbolt as a major component of its heavy 'Mech force.

Ordinarily, I'd start with the primitive model, but this time, I'm going to go to the first published variant, the TDR-5S Thunderbolt, and establish what it is that made this 'Mech such an enduring combatant.  The TDR-5S is the original Unseen variant, having roots all the way back to BattleDroids before being published in TRO3025 and then in TRO3039 when the Unseen were added back in.  At 65 tons, it's a solid mid-range heavy built around the Earthwerks TDR chassis.  A Magna 260 fusion engine gives you a standard 64 kph speed, utterly typical for heavy 'Mechs of its technological vintage (Introductory, of course), and 15 heat sinks provide a good bit of room for juggling weapons heat.  13 tons of Ryerson 150 standard plate give Thunderbolts their well-deserved reputation for being troopers, with 30 points on the center torso, 24 on the side torsos, 20 on the arms, 29 on the legs, 11 on the rear center, and 6 to each side, plus 9 on the head.  The weapons package is very balanced, giving you a good ability to do just about anything a ground-bound heavy 'Mech gets asked to do.  The Sunglow Type 2 large laser on the right arm and a Delta Dart LRM 15 rack in the right torso comprise your long range arsenal (and, at 13 heat, let you run and stay heat neutral).  A little alarmingly from a modern perspective, the LRM ammo was placed in the center torso, but at the time, that put it behind the thickest possible armor, so it's not as bad as it looks.  To be honest, the other ammo bins worry me more.  The right torso also houses a Bical Short Range Missile Twin-Rack with its own ton of ammo, plus a pair of left arm Voelkers 200 machine guns with a full ton of their own.  Once the armor's breached, it's an explosives palooza in here.  Less worrisome from a safety point of view are the three Diverse Optics Type 18 medium lasers in the left torso.  As a compromise unit, the TDR-5S is a very solid trooper, even if some people have had notable runs of bad luck with the ammunition.  Personally, other than strongly considering dumping the machine gun ammo, I've never really had that many problems with them, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now that we've established where the Thunderbolt came from in the game, let's take a look at the primitive model from XTRO Primitives Volume III.  The armament is the same, although one ton of SRM ammo displaced a ton of LRM ammo in the center torso, while half of the machine gun ammunition was removed.  (Some might term that an improvement, actually.)  The armor, while six tons heavier, lost a whole five points (two off of each leg and one off the center rear torso) - still quite survivable given the primitive era.  The real cuts were to the engine - a 235 primitive fusion engine only gives you enough speed to pace a Mackie - and to your heat sinks.  A mere 10 is a little sticky, especially if you're really leaning on the laser triggers, but it's something that can be managed by experienced players.  Overall, I was struck at just how similar the TDR-1C is to its more modern counterparts.  And like several of the primitive 'Mechs, it's still functional enough even on a Jihad battlefield.  Long in the tooth, slow, and lightly armed compared to its modern descendants, maybe, but functional.

During the Star League, some advanced models were developed.  One of them is a fine example of the Royal hardware.  The other one is the one the Federated Suns used, which... isn't.  We'll start with the TDR-5Sb, the Royal variant presented in Historical: KLONDIKE.  Using an endo-steel skeleton, the SLDF's chosen model debuted with heavy improvements to its weapons.  The heat sinks were traded for 14 freezers.  The Sunglow was swapped for an extended-range PPC, improving damage and adding just over 50% to the weapon's range.  An Artemis IV rack enhances the LRM in direct fire, the SRM launcher was replaced by a Streak rack, and the machine guns were upgraded to small pulse lasers, improving accuracy and getting rid of a ton of what may be the single most dangerous explosive known to the Star League Defense Force.  CASE was added around the missile ammo.  Overall, a very solid heavy 'Mech that makes the Thunderbolt better at being a Thunderbolt without any nonsense.

The Davion TDR-5Sd is a somewhat different proposition, again starting from the TDR-5S.  Look for this one on page 129 of Era Report: 2750.  Removing the Sunglow laser, the LRM rack, the machine guns, and their ammunition, the design also traded out for 12 freezers.  The removed weapons were replaced by an Ultra/5 with two tons of ammo, a medium laser, and a large pulse laser.  I'm a long way from the world's biggest fan of the Ultra/5, so you can imagine I'm not especially impressed.  The fact that the armament changes turn it from a generalist trooper into a close-in fighter means the three hex minimum range isn't helpful.  What it does to your ability to spar or support other lance members beyond range 10 is what really bothers me.  Since your machine guns (read: infantry repellant) got removed in the process of doing this, the design also managed to compromise part of its short-range capabilities in the process.  It's not useless and it should have a solid endurance as well as reasonable dissipation even under moderate external heat input at range, though.

During the Succession Wars, two widespread customized models existed.  The Eridani Light Horse modified their Thunderbolts to the TDR-5SE standard, removing the missile racks and machine guns for four jump jets, two additional heat sinks, and an LRM 10 with two tons of ammo, improving the weapon's endurance by another 8 rounds of sustained fire.  This turns it into more of a raider and skirmisher, intended for more independent operations than the original, something like a smaller Grasshopper that trades some of the close-in light show for a heavier ranged punch.

The Steiner variant went a different direction.  The Sunglow laser and LRMs were both removed in favor of a PPC; given the reduced minimums on your long-range weapon, that's not quite as bad as it looks at first glance.  The machine guns were swapped for a flamer while the SRM rack was boosted to an SRM 6.  It's not too shabby but with all the remaining tonnage dumped straight into heat sinks, boosting the number to 21, it's arguably oversinked.  On the other hand, tossing a PPC, two Mls, and an SRM 6 downrange at -1 isn't too bad in the range 2-6 bracket.

Another customized model was the TDR-5S-T Thunderbolt Tallman, the personal 'Mech of Leftenant General Mary Tallman, commanding officer of the Bremond Draconis March Militia during its operations on Galtor in 3022.  The missiles and machine guns were stripped for five more medium lasers and eight single heat sinks.  The result is a close-range bruiser that's going to be a real pain to kill.  The MUL has reports of a TDR-5S Thunderbolt (Maeve), apparently from the novel Wolf Pack, but I don't have any details.

TRO3050 is regarded in some quarters as being infamous for designs that shoot themselves in the foot.  Some of them even reload and take aim at the other foot for good measure - LAW's going to be spending a long time living down the PNT-10K - but there are some bright spots, units that go beyond merely serviceable all the way to good.  The Marik TDR-7M Thunderbolt of the era, like their Archer, is one of them.  There's no endo-steel but ferro-fibrous and CASE were both employed; the armor is all of two points thinner to save weight, both of them off the legs, which would be a good trade even if all it did was buy CASE.  The design only opted for an ERLL upgrade instead of the Royal's ER PPC but I'm in that rare camp that actually likes the ERLL, so no major complaints here.  The LRMs lack Artemis (which makes it a good companion to the contemporary Marik Orion and Trebuchet variants) but the Streak upgrade was completed.  Probably the most dangerous thing from an enemy's perspective is that where previously, a TDR-5S Thunderbolt had to moderate its fire up close, a TDR-7M doesn't need to bother even trying unless someone's smearing it with Inferno gel or it's running around in temperatures hot enough to boil standing water.

Around the same time, Steiner was producing a bit more offbeat model of their own, the TDR-9S.  Very much like the TDR-5SS, the TDR-9S boosts the design's close-in capabilities at the cost of long-range firepower.  The main changes from the TDR-5SS was putting the machine guns back on while adding a second flamer, AMS, and CASE (each side torso), while swapping the PPC for an extended-range model.  The armor was brought up to the maximum on the chassis; whether a half-ton for three points is a better use than another machine gun or a small laser is up to you.  The tonnage for those improvements was supplied by dropping to “only” fifteen double heat sinks.  The heavier armament makes it a bit better trade overall.

The Eridani Light Horse model of the day was the TDR-9SE.  (Yes, it predates the 7SE, which is a Reseen Civil War era design.  I'll touch on that mess a little later.)  It more or less upgraded the original, at least technologically.  Fifteen double heat sinks are more than merely 'adequate', they're sufficient to cool a jumping alpha-strike you'll rarely want to fire anyway.    The right arm mount is occupied by an LPL now - cutting your ability to skirmish significantly - and the ammo endurance was cut dramatically for CASE (yay!) and three points of armor (...wait, what?).  Overall, I'll pass.

The final Clan Invasion era design was the Thunderbolt C, a refit that was ostensibly first done by the Jade Falcons in desperation.  Trust me, it shows.  Technically a mixed-tech design, the design can be executed with pure Clantech, and there's not much going on here.  Taking Succession Wars Thunderbolts out, the Falcons refit them with Clan weapons - an LPL on the right arm, an ERLL in the left torso, and an ERML and two ERSLs in the left arm.  This isn't exactly highly impressive firepower for Clan heavies (see the Guillotine IIC if you're wondering what I'm yammering about), although the range on the LPL and ERLL can make IS opponents a little wary.  What plunges this to the dark depths of mediocrity is the fifteen single heat sinks and nine tons remaining.  Like I said, this one shows they were desperate and doing the work in a real hurry.

At the end of the FedCom Civil War, a new generation of Thunderbolts emerged from the factories, redesigned visually and sporting new technologies that reached the battlefield after the children of Kerensky made their dramatic entrance into the setting.  The first fruits of this redesign were covered in TRO Project Phoenix, a FanPro product to introduce the Reseen to BattleTech players.

The featured model is the League's new TDR-9M.  Built around an endo-steel skeleton and put into use by League allies and neighbors, the TDR-9M looks a little radical but when you refer back to the TDR-7M, the design's evolution is a little more sensible.  Like the Reseen, the Imperator Automatic Light Gauss Rifle in the right arm that replaced the classic laser has a mixed reputation in the fan base, and like the Reseen, I think it has a valid place in the game.  Earthwerks may have been trying to avoid going head-on with Irian BattleMechs Unlimited's Tempest, positioning the TDR-9M as a long range sniper design.  Pairing the LGR with the classic Delta Dart LRM 15 in a right torso mount gives you a significant reach and skirmishing capability, with 16 rounds for each weapon.  Since you've probably got access to them, it's hard to go wrong with semi-guided LRMs here.  A quartet of Chilton 465 jump jets let it move through terrain alongside the more close-range oriented design, providing standoff support while the Tempest moves in to exploit its heavier short-range armament and the Gauss rifle's 7 hex short range.  A trio Diverse Optics ERMLs in the left torso provide some defense if someone closes under your range minimums or manages to blow the right torso off, depriving you of your long range weapons.  The armor a little thinner overall, shaving a point off the arms and legs and two off the forward torsos, but considering you should be able to start engaging at a favorable range, it's not as bad as it could be.

Speaking of Gauss rifles, guess what the TDR-7SE carries!  A quartet of MPLs, three in the left torso and one in the left arm, go a little oddly considering where your range overlaps are.  ECM provides an electronic bulwark to go along with the maximal ferro-fibrous armor.  Tough but not overly heavily armed, the jump jets make this another E variant skirmisher in a long line of them.  It's not unlike the Tempest in some ways.

The related and contemporary TDR-10SE is no departure, packing an ER PPC and LRM 10 fed by a single ton of ammo, with three ERMLs in the left torso above the launcher.  I'm going to look askance at the lack of CASE for a moment but you've got 200 points of armor, stripping down to 19 points on the arms, 28 on the center torso, and 22 on the side torsos.  The rear armor was rearranged to a 7/9/7 loadout, better protecting the stern against Clan laser fire.  ECM adds to your defenses while a targeting computer makes the energy weapons impressively accurate.  The jump jets are still there, bolstered by MASC for zippy ground speed.

The Federated Suns was the source of a close attack cavalry Thunderbolt at the end of the FedCom Civil War, the TDR-9NAIS.  Slightly less heavily armored than the 9M by shaving a couple of points off each leg and side torso and one point off the arms, the design adds two points to the centerline, one each front and rear for a total of 29 and 10, respectively.  If Marik got a visit from the Imperator delivery folks, Davion got one from the RAC fairy, putting a class 5 rotary autocannon on the right arm and feeding it with no less than three tons of ammo.  A Streak SRM 6 and three ERMLs round out the weapons load, with a targeting computer making this one a nasty armor-stripper once it gets into range.  The 325 XLFE means it's going to get there faster than you might expect from the Thunderbolt's usual 4/6 performance, too.  CASE and ECM offset the vulnerability of the engine, so at least you can salvage it and don't need to worry about Artemis.  The TDR-9NAIS makes a handy 'Mech to use as a jamming platform to disrupt C3 networks, too.

The fires of the Jihad forged a new generation of Thunderbolts, cataloged in RS3085 Unabridged Project Phoenix and TRO3085.  The showroom floor model was the TDR-10M built by Earthwerks on Keystone starting in 3082, which is kind of a display piece for the advanced particle cannons that came online at the beginning of the Jihad.  A Magna 260 light fusion saves weight, as does the endo-steel skeleton, and jump jets continue to advance the cause of confusing the Thunderbolt for the Tempest.  13 tons of Starshield A standard plate provides protection just a hair under the maximum possible, with a point shy of max on the front center torso and legs.  Thirteen double heat sinks leaves the TDR-10M able to overheat if you just alpha-strike but the way the weapons brackets work out, that's not necessarily a good idea anyway.  A Fusigon Strongtooth HPPC on the right arm is a great foundation, built on by the Fusigon Shorttooth LPPC in the left torso.  A Ceres Arms Thrasher SNPPC is also in the left torso along with a Diverse Optics ERML.  A Doombud MML 5 in the right torso offers both supporting fire, options, and the chance to blow the entire 'Mech to kingdom come at a stroke if one of the ammo bins gets hit.  Overall, I'm not really sure on this one as it seems a little odd, but there's some definite potential here.

Two unique custom variants of the 10M exist, both featured in the Dossiers products.  The TDR-10M (Salazar) is heavily modified, barely even the same 'Mech anymore, and is operated by freelance mercenary Salazar Tsakalotos.  It's wrapped in stealth armor and the HPPC was replaced by a plasma rifle fed by two tons of ammo.  A medium pulse laser replaced the ERML.  A flamer was added to kill infantry while a small VSPL is rear-mounted in the head.  All of these changes turn the design into a close-range killer, although the removal of a jump jet doesn't help you get there, nor does having only 12 freezers keep you cool.  Tonnage was also freed up by swapping to an XLFE with an XL gyro, making this one of the rare 'Mechs with asymmetrical jump jets.

The TDR-10M (Ilyena) is operated by Ilyena Lamenkov, leader of the Republic Errant Force candidates Lamenkov's Liability.  Modified to act as a lance command unit, the ERML and snubbie were removed for a C3 master and second light PPC, emphasizing the standoff fire role and leaving the MML's SRMs as your only close-in weapon.  Since two freezers got pulled, I would have kept some lasers, but that's me.  The lack of a cooling jacket on one LPPC and sensor ghosts on the C3 master counterbalance the 'Mech's capabilities as a Command BattleMech and its searchlight under low light conditions.

At around the same time, the Taurians were working on an advanced model of their own, the TDR-9T.  Unlike the Penthesilea, which the Canopians are selling to their erstwhile Taurian allies, this one is a Concordat exclusive.  At 6/9, it's the fastest Thunderbolt and uses a 390-rated XLFE to achieve that speed.  A pair of light PPCs and an LRM 10 give you passable standoff firepower, with a lot of endurance thanks to two tons of ammo with a CASE'd bin.  A trio of ERMLs in the right torso are your only close-in weapons aside from physical attacks.  Definitely a skirmisher, the design has a lot of options for engagement ranges but the firepower isn't especially impressive, not seriously outdoing a modern medium 'Mech.  The armor is only as heavy as the 10M's but favoring the front, with 24 points on the side torsos and 6 on th

The SE series continued with the TDR-11SE, built by Earthwerks on Keystone during the early Jihad.  Six improved jump jets and a 260 LFE turn it into the final evolution of the jumping jack Thunderbolt and the armament is built to exploit the mobility, with a snubnose PPC on the right arm as the heavy weapon, backed by an MML 7 in the right torso and three ERMLs.  Unlike the TDR-10M, the MML ammo has CASE.  Like the 10SE, the TDR-11SE has a targeting computer.

The BattleCorps article it was mentioned in described the TDR-60-RLA as “angry” and the author was right when he did it.  Big, fast, and armed for in your face beat downs, the TDR-60-RLA Thunderbolt has TSM, a 325 XLFE, and a lot of energy weapons.  Two snubbies, three ERMLs, two MPLs, two SLs, and an SPL comprise the full armament with 12 DHS.  All of the weapons are distributed across the torsos, leaving the arms free to deliver cockpit-removing punches as part of the 'Mech's anger management therapy.  Isn't it so nice of the enemy to provide free punching bags?

Steiner's TDR-17S is more of a sprinter carrying MASC and four jump jets.  An ER PPC is on the right arm, reminding me strongly of the 9S, while four MPLs give you close-in firepower.  The really notable thing here isn't the firepower, honestly.  That's mediocre at worst.  If the TDR-60-RLA is designed to run up to people and beat them to death in a flurry of lasers, charged particles, and furious fists, the TDR-17S is an endurance fighter thanks to a 260 compact fusion engine, a heavy-duty gyro, and a Guardian ECM module in the center torso.  It may not kill anyone quickly, sure, but putting a TDR-17S down is going to require a lot of time and effort.e rear, with a 30/11 split on the center.  Use your speed to run down smaller units or harass larger ones.

Finally, I'll close out the Spheroid models with the Word's contribution to the Thunderbolt lineage, the TDR-9Nr that was based on the 9NAIS.  Like a lot of Word models, the 9Nr is a little odd, removing the RAC/5 and targeting computer for other equipment.  Precisely why they put a C3 slave on I don't know.  The ECM is still there but there's also a Bloodhound.  Between that and the B-pods, my guess is these are intended as close-in attackers for hunting opponents in places like Avalon City.  A large VSPL reinforces that impression.  A light PPC gives you some notional long-range punch.  At 65 tons, that's about all it is but at least it's there.

As a bizarre feathered capstone, the final entry in the Thunderbolt's long history to date is the Jade Falcon-built Thunderbolt IIC in TRO Prototypes.  The design's raison d'etre lies with the way production of hardware for new Summoners and Hellbringers was outpacing the need for them on the assembly lines.  Pragmatically, the Falcons elected to use some of the surplus on a new 'Mech line and turned to Olivetti Weaponry's old Thunderbolt design to use the largesse.  The basic design grew five tons and TRO Prototypes comments on the design's visual similarity to the Summoner, a design that itself has been compared to the Thunderbolt.  The communications and targeting systems as well as the Redline 350 XLFE are derived from the Summoner, while the ejection seat came from the Hellbringer and life support was borrowed from the Turkina.  13.5 tons of Hellbringer Forging Omni H24 armor (enough to armor over one and a half Hellbringers) provides 216 points of armor arranged very similarly to the classic layout on the TDR-5S.  Slight improvements on the limbs and forward torsos are balanced by a single point reduction on the rear centerline to a mere ten points.  But wait, it's rated Advanced!  So where's the fancy tech?  It's all in the guns and the CASE II.  Your sole long-range weapon is a Streak LRM 15 fed by two tons of ammunition, all in the right torso, as is the CASE II.  Backstopping that arsenal are a bevy of medium-range weapons, starting with a pair of improved heavy large lasers.  They're made of explodium, yes.  They're also in the arms and backstopped by standard Clan CASE, so any detonations are only going to remove the arm.  Personally, I've always leaned more toward the ER PPC to do the heavy lifting for me in the heavy Clan energy weapons department - the range, accuracy, and lower heat is well worth the increased tonnage and loss of one measly point of damage to me - but IHLLs are more accurate than their conventional counterparts and they hit like speeding locomotives when they connect.  A trio of ERMLs provide some crit-seeking or secondary options to give you some flexibility in managing heat.  With only 17 freezers, lighting everything off is an incredibly bad idea since it takes you to +22 on the heat scale but you do have some options depending on what you're looking to accomplish at the time.  You can even use the Streak LRM 15 aggressively thanks to the fact that it's a Streak launcher and won't deplete your ammo pointlessly.  You have to use the speed aggressively - this is a heavy cavalry brawler, not a classic trooper like most Thunderbolts or a walking gunnery platform like the Night Gyr.  Outside 15 hexes, it's only slightly more dangerous than a TDR-5S would be.  For a Clan heavy, that's pretty limited ranged firepower and if you don't get into range to bring your lasers into play as fast as possible, the first Blood Reaper you run into might just carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey.

The Falcons also invested in a spare for their Thunderbolt heir in the form of a high survivability variant with a mere 280 SFE (we aren't told but somehow, I have a suspicion it might be a VOX).  A heavy-duty gyro and ECM make this one a tough nut to crack.  Two DHS were removed in exchange for four jump jets, making me wonder if someone in Falcon land confused the Thunderbolt with the Grasshopper.  An ERLL on the right arm is your token long range weapon, with an HLL (just an HLL, not an improved model), three MPLs, and a left arm SPL mark this as a zombie.  While this one is going to be a pain in the neck to kill off a lot of the time, I'm not especially impressed with the firepower, and unlike the standard IIC, the 2 doesn't have the speed to engage something like a Falconer or Hellbringer on anything resembling even terms.  It kind of reminds me of a 3025 Grasshopper, a tough, jumpy brawler that relies on endurance and ability to pound someone down after getting up close and personal with its lasers.

The variety of Thunderbolt armaments makes general suggestions for the type difficult to offer, and many of them are solid troopers that should really be employed at whatever range works best against their opponent anyway.  Most of them have solid armor, though, so bring some hole-punchers, and you'll want crit-seekers (especially to hit those juicy ammo criticals).  Other than that, figure out which variant you're looking at and try to match your strengths against its weaknesses.  Again, the sheer variety makes it hard to provide much specific advice at the grand overview level.  I've tried to give some suggestions on the individual variants instead.

References: The Master Unit List lists the Spheroid and Clan versions separately.  CamoSpecs does something similar with no less than five sculpts: TDR-10M, TDR-9M, TDR-9NAIS, TDR-10M Jumping, and Thunderbolt IIC.

Giovanni Blasini

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7283
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #1 on: 21 December 2012, 18:11:38 »
I have always dug the Thunderbolt, and the idea of primitive Thunderbolts during the Jihad makes me squee a little inside. That said, needs a primitive jumping variant. For extra continuity goodness. Thinking dropping the SRMs would work.
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

Greyhind

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 635
  • I'm Watching You
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #2 on: 21 December 2012, 18:34:57 »
I'm not a big fan of JJs (not a hater but its always a deliberate choice rather than an auto-include). I'm not a big fan of the GR family (same, I like other weapons more but don't dislike them). I'm not a big fan of Thuds (in the succession wars they feel same-y).

That said, the 9M and the 7SE are solid 'mechs that I don't cringe away from using like I would a Sentinel or something. In fact they are so solid that I actively seek them out. Very well put together IMHO.



...The rest of the Thunderbolts are overrated.


And lo, did the vitriol flow.

dddddddd207

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #3 on: 21 December 2012, 21:08:35 »
When you're talking about the -9T, the last sentance gets cut off. Somehow, it gets added back on at the end of the paragraph about the -17S.

master arminas

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2231
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #4 on: 21 December 2012, 21:39:20 »
My Thunderbolts   >:D

Back to topic:  the Thud (or T-Bolt, or Thunderbolt, as it is also known) is my favorite BattleMech of all time.  It is a solid trooper par excellence in 3025 and while I don't carry for any of the upgrades, that is just personal taste.  Of all of them, the first Marik 3050 upgrade stays closest to what I think of when I think Thud.  Good article, Moonsword.  Enjoyed it.

MA

Spheroid

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 306
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #5 on: 21 December 2012, 22:11:15 »
The Thunderbolt-5S is pure win.  I love that mech.

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6701
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #6 on: 22 December 2012, 00:03:41 »
I have always liked the thunderbolt, even if the dice were never really good friends to me when i used them.  Pity they never made a variant that shifted the LRM and LL for a straight up gauss rifle.
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13295
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #7 on: 22 December 2012, 00:13:04 »
Personal preference, swap the Primitive's LRM15 for an LRM10, use the tonnage for a pair of heat sinks.  Suddenly that sustained long range firepower gets a LOT nastier.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Ian Sharpe

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2143
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #8 on: 22 December 2012, 00:35:49 »
Since I originally played BT as a Cappie, the Thunderbolt 5S was my primary heavy mech; the Crusader lacked a concentrated punch, the Catapult was better but needed more ammo and armor, and the Cataphract was good but hard to find.  I preferred the 5SE for its jumping most of all, and was not a huge fan of the 5SS, although its not bad by any measure of mine. 

The 3050 variants were OK, but generally ran insanely cool.  Not every mech needs or should be designed around range brackets but ice cold mechs just bug me.  The LPL on the SE was the biggest disappointment, but easily remedied...

Not a big fan of the LGR model, its underwhelming, but durable.  Another 'meh' mech for Marik, unfortunately.  The only standout to me is the gauss model, mostly for being hard hitting.  The RAC/TC is another 5/8 RAC/TC design.  The others sort of blend together to me.  Haven't really looked at them past 3067.

It also suffers in miniature form, whether Unseen, Reseen or IIC.  They have good and bad points about each sculpt; here's hoping for the primitive. 

master arminas

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2231
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #9 on: 22 December 2012, 00:44:14 »
Since I originally played BT as a Cappie, the Thunderbolt 5S was my primary heavy mech.

T-Bolts and Vindicators, Mister Sharpe!  I had an entire company of minatures (lead, not pewter) painted up in the colors of the 2nd Kearny at one point in time (before they rewrote history and removed the Highlanders as a House unit, that is).

MA

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9239
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #10 on: 22 December 2012, 00:52:50 »
I'm that one guy, I guess.  I've never bought into the "T-bolt as a paragon of awesome" thing.  Call me crazy.  The 5S is a good heavy trooper, a gun for every occasion, but just because of that its always struck me as bland.  And the MG and/or SRM ammo has never gone well for me.  I do like the 9M and Royal versions though.  To me, the 9M is a place that the LGR really works.  As a replacement for a standard LL, it's an improvement in every way but ammo-dependency, if you've got the tonnage to burn.  The Royal is just everything a Star League Royal upgrade should be.  Sensible, powerful (without being insane) and still keeping the distinctive flavor (though I don't know quite how you retain  the distinctive flavor of bland.  Hmm).  Probably the CASE and MG/SPL swap really helping me here too.  Also, I think you could actually refit existing 5-series models into Royals, it doesn't even have to be a new build (like the monstrosities that change the design's tonnage).
« Last Edit: 22 December 2012, 01:53:01 by Arkansas Warrior »
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

martian

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8348
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #11 on: 22 December 2012, 01:25:40 »
Nice article, Moonsword. I like how you have been thorough when you mentioned TDR-5Sd.

However, there is one more Thunderbolt - specifically TDR-7MD.

Alexander Knight

  • Peditum Generalis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4963
  • O-R-E-O
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #12 on: 22 December 2012, 04:03:27 »
I love the Thunderbolt.  It's a tough, dependable bruiser in all of its incarnations.

I will also never pilot one.  Because after over a decade of playing, I have had a Thunderbolt under my control survive a battle exactly twice.  Every other time someone has managed to either "golden BB" or group damage into one of my ammo bins.  Doesn't matter what variant I use.  The end result is always the same thing.   :'(

martian

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8348
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #13 on: 22 December 2012, 04:22:11 »
I love the Thunderbolt.  It's a tough, dependable bruiser in all of its incarnations.

I will also never pilot one.  Because after over a decade of playing, I have had a Thunderbolt under my control survive a battle exactly twice.  Every other time someone has managed to either "golden BB" or group damage into one of my ammo bins.  Doesn't matter what variant I use.  The end result is always the same thing.   :'(

Take TDR-17S, then. No volatile ammunition, jumper, Heavy Duty Gyro, Compact Engine, ECM suite (in Center Torso for additional padding), almost maximum protection. If "this" doesn't help, then I don't know what would.   :))

cold1

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4881
  • Goon
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #14 on: 22 December 2012, 05:26:35 »
First off, props to Moonsword for writing this mammoth work.  There are tons of Thud variants and just getting them all covered is a feat.

I like the Thud a lot especially the 10M.


To the patient go the spoils

Deadborder

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7887
  • Technical Victory!
    • Elmer Studios Blog
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #15 on: 22 December 2012, 06:10:14 »
I love the T-Bolt, plain and simple. Allways have, allways will. There's little that I can say that hasn't allready been covered above, but It's a 'Mech that I personally can't get enough of. My PC in a 3025-era Mechwarrior game piloted a TDR-5S that seemed to be invincible. Silly thing wouldn't die, no matter what. I've never lost a T-Bolt to an ammo explosion. Bizzare

Awesome article and great stuff there, especially summarising the 4,691 variants.
Author of BattleCorps stories Grand Theft Agro and Zero Signal



How to Draw MegaMek Icons the Deadborder Way. Over 9000 so far. Determination or madness?

Iron Grenadier

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 796
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #16 on: 22 December 2012, 09:21:36 »
The Thunderbolt has always been one of my favorites. The -5S, 5Sb, -5SE, -5SS, -7M, -9S, -9SE, -9T are among my favored canon variants to use.

After I had introduced my boys to BattleTech, I remarked to them the old SLDF practice of using company and even battalions of the same mech. They decided to do the same thing in the Succession Wars era with a merc unit. Of course they chose the Thunderbolt. They started in late 3038 with a company of Thuds and we did a 30 year campaign(!)

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #17 on: 22 December 2012, 19:34:08 »
Brilliant article and really makes me want to try out some of the variants  :)
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Alexander Knight

  • Peditum Generalis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4963
  • O-R-E-O
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #18 on: 22 December 2012, 23:05:28 »
Take TDR-17S, then. No volatile ammunition, jumper, Heavy Duty Gyro, Compact Engine, ECM suite (in Center Torso for additional padding), almost maximum protection. If "this" doesn't help, then I don't know what would.   :))

Engine TAC the one time I tried it.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25216
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #19 on: 23 December 2012, 00:02:34 »
Love the Thud, a trooper Mech to be sure.  I'm not so hip on some of the designs, but they do the job well if your paying attention.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Neufeld

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2539
  • Raven, Lyran, Horse, Capellan, Canopian, Bear
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #20 on: 23 December 2012, 07:37:38 »
I like the Thunderbolt, and like it was said, it really is the definition of a trooper. However, I feel that most of the new variants really misses what a Thunderbolt should be like. So, in my opinion the evolution of the real Thunderbolt goes like TDR-1C --> TDR-5S --> TDR-7M --> TDR-5Sb --> VR6-C. Yes, you read that right, I consider the Verfolger VR6-C to be the closest to what a Jihad-era Thunderbolt should have been like. Not that the there is anything wrong with the other variants, it is just that they do not take the opportunity to mount enough MMLs, and that they feel more like evolutions of the TDR-5SE and TDR-5SS instead.


"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

Jimmyray73

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • I will not be toyed with!
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #21 on: 24 December 2012, 20:34:40 »
I've always had good results from the T-bolt. Even in the fights it didn't survive it took enough company to Hades with it that I can't complain. I haven't used as many of the newer varianbts as I'd like but I'll remedy that soon. I made a field upgrade way back in the day for a merc campaign that used a little bit of 3050 tech to hybrid a 5SS and 5SE into something truly nifty for an early Clan Invasion game.
Endo has forgotten more about dispensing pain than you or I will ever know...

Welshman

  • Mostly Retired Has Been
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10509
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #22 on: 25 December 2012, 01:06:16 »
Back in the day (yes, I can say that, I've got the gray hair to back it) we called it the Thunderbucket. This was because it looked like some fat kid with a garbage pail on its head, wearing a cardboard box for armor.

It was always one of the first targets in the game, because if you didn't kill it quickly, it would gut your forces and leave you asking for mommy.

-Joel BC-
Catalyst Freelancer (Inactive)

"Some closets will never contain Narnia, no matter how many times we open the door." - Weirdo, in relation to the power of hope.

Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6985
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #23 on: 25 December 2012, 06:01:13 »
I was cleaning up some old papers yesterday and found the roster for a merc unit from a campaign back in the late '80s. Command lance: one Warhammer-K, one Thunderbolt of each of the standard variants. :D

And all of them had their ammo moved away from the CT... ::)

jymset

  • Infinita Navitas & RecGuide Developer
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1534
  • the one and only
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #24 on: 25 December 2012, 09:23:00 »
A little trivia. The Thunderbolt was something of a point man for Project Phoenix. Its notable pilot in TRO PP is one Mordel Blacknight, the alter ego of, well, Mordel who is still maintaining one of the true fossils of BT fansites. Aside from influencing the first incarnation of forum rules for this esteemed venue, his forums spawned the thread that ultimately kicked off TPTB into thinking about redux imagery and iirc that's why Mordel got the nod.
On CGL writing: Caught between a writer's block and a Herb place. (cray)

Nicest writing compliment ever: I know [redacted] doesn't like continuity porn, but I do, and you sir, write some great continuity porn! (MadCapellan)

3055 rocks! Did so when I was a n00b, does so now.

Kojak

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4612
  • Melancon Lives!
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #25 on: 25 December 2012, 11:37:18 »
I started playing BT just a few years before Project Phoenix came out, and the Reseen Thunderbolts, particularly the -7SE and -10SE, rapidly became a staple of my forces. I still use them all the time; they're really about as close to perfect as they can be without be boring, IMO. I've used the TDR-60-RLA (or the Gorilla, as I usually call it) a fair few times as well, and I love that thing, it's such a brute. Dancing about at nine hexes and slapping them around with the snubbies, then closing in for a TSM-enchanced beatdown; it's just so viscerally joyful.


"Deep down, I suspect the eject handle on the Hunchback IIC was never actually connected to anything. The regs just say it has to be there."
- Klarg1

snakespinner

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2691
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #26 on: 26 December 2012, 03:19:27 »
Nice write up Moonsword.
The Thunderbolt has been in every unit i've run since the 80's and it is still a favourite.
I wish I could get a good grip on reality, then I would choke it.
Growing old is inevitable,
Growing up is optional.
Watching TrueToaster create evil genius, priceless...everything else is just sub-par.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #27 on: 26 December 2012, 05:39:02 »
It's pretty easy to get rid of the worst of the original models ammo problems, probably a change worth making

Headshot

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 318
  • Trust me. I know what i'm doing.
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #28 on: 27 December 2012, 12:23:44 »
The reason for the T-Bolts legendary toughness is simply its armor. Back in the day, Mechs with maxed out armor were something of a rarity.
To be more precise, TRO3025 had not even one. Disregarding some variants (like the monstrous WHM-6D), the Mechs with the highest armor percentages were the Atlas and the Thunderbolt, both just three points short of max. That alone makes the T-Bolt remarkable.
Just to put this into perspective, the other 65 tonners were the Crusader, the Catapult and the JaegerMech, with 12, 10 and 6 tons of armor...
Only one Heavy, the Orion, had more armor, and there was quite a number of Assaults with less!

Back then, infantry was also pretty much useless, and so my "personal" Thunderbolt variant dropped the MGs and SRMs to upgrade the Large Laser into a PPC and add two heatsinks.
Looks like a Lvl1 precursor to the modern generation of T-Bolts now  O:-)

And even though the Mech is one of my alltime favorites, i never really got to like its looks. It was just too ugly.
Something thats totally changed with PP, i love the reseen look.



Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6985
Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #29 on: 27 December 2012, 15:43:41 »
Nitpick: The ON1-K actually has maxed armor, and the Awesome is only 7 points short.

The T-bolt is also fairly well crit-packed. The Orion suffers from only having 10 SHS.