Project Phoenix Mechs!

[bakija]

So yeah, realizing that I'm, like, a decade behind the times, I finally picked up the Project Phoenix TRO (which I never had looked at before, thinking it was just an expanded book of the old school guys in the back of the 3039 TRO), and discovered that it is full of brand new designs of these classic mechs. Which are all very nicely designed. Cool stuff.

Looking over the classics:

-Locust 5M: A very solid, ridiculously fast little mech. Even with single heat sinks, it isn't that bad off, heat wise, and packs a reasonable amount of firepower.

-Stinger 5R: I don't know that I buy into the efficacy of the Rocket Launcher 15s on this guy (primarily due to the basic design of the RL in general; it is a strong single shot, but with the +1 to hit, it isn't that likely to hit in the one time it gets fired), but given that all those extra 2 tons could be wouldn't really be that extra effective anyway, I can't really fault the idea (i.e. if you get in a scrape, maybe the 2xRL 15s will help you get out). Still works like a Stinger, however.

-Wasp 3L: Still similar to the Stinger, but trades most of the RL firepower for ECM and Stealth Armor, which makes it a solid little guy to use as an ECM getter in the way-er. Of the two, the Wasp seems a lot more of an interesting upgrade than the Stinger.

-Valkyrie QD1: This guy is an awesome upgrade; still reasonable maneuverability and armor for a light mech, the LRM15+Artemis is a great weapon (essentially an LRM20 but with more ammo). I'm not super convinced that the Targeting Computer inclusion just for the single ERML is a fantastic idea, but it's only a ton, so, well, not that big a deal. Overall, a great little mech.

-Ostscout 9CS: Fast, jumpy, reasonable armament, and full of useful electronics (C3i, ECM, TAG, Beagle Probe). A very solid "scouty" mech that is going to be very effective in combat as a hard to hit, close range "spotter" kinda guy. Very nice for what it is.

-Phoenix Hawk 4L: A superb version of this old standby. Great guns and maneuverability, greatly improved heat sinking abilities, ECM. All sorts of good. But really, they couldn't have pulled 3 points of armor off its torso to give it maximum head armor?

-Griffin 6S: Also a great version of an old mech. The long range combo of the ERPPC and LRM15+Artemis is very solid. It probably should have dropped the second ERML (which it can't really afford to fire much anyway, heatwise) for one more DHS, but I can't really fault it. Very solid.

-Scorpion 12S: Totally a reasonable way to make that old, unloved mech into a good combatant. Fast, reasonable hitting power, no more heat problems. Does suffer from having light armor and a LT full of ammo waiting to get hit with nothing to hide the ammo behind, but at least it has CASE, so not an instant death.

-Shadow Hawk 5D: Certainly an interesting version of this guy, who originally was always pretty bad. Still a kind of weird weapons outlay, but the RAC 5 is certainly an interesting way to go. Less armor than the excellent Griffin and Wolverine. Still not the best mech in the bunch, but at least interesting.

-Wolverine 8K: A totally fantastic version of what was originally very underwhelming. Strong firepower, abundant heat sinks, solid armor, excellent maneuverability. While I always thought the original Wolvernie, saddled with the anemic AC5/ML/SRM6 armament was best looked past. This guy? Great.

-Ostroc 4L: Completely reasonable. Kind of suffers from not enough heat sinks with that heavy ER laser armament. Not my favorite of the bunch, but not horrible.

-Ostol 6D: A much better combatant than the Ostroc, with more heat sinks, the targeting computer, and enough short range lasers to make up for not firing the large ones when in close. The TSM means it is fast and good at hand to hand combat, and the TC/Pulse lasers makes up for the heat penalties. Lacks jump jets and the ECM. But still, more attractive than the Ostroc.

-Rifleman 8D: A much more viable and interesting version of this classic guy. Lots of RAC ammo (although they are certainly gonna jam before all the ammo is gone). No more heat problems. Jump jets. Certainly worth using.

-Crusader 5K: Meh. I was never a big fan of the original design for any number of reasons (not enough heat sinks, a lot of exploding). This version relies on MRMs, which with the +1 to hit, are very underwhelming. Not super impressed. I mean, I see why it is what it is (i.e. a different kind of missile mech), but as I'm not impressed by MRMs, this guys fails to look attractive.

-Thunderbolt 9M: A very solid, fighty mech. Strong armor, jump jets, strong armament, enough heat sinks. I'm not a huge fan of the Light Gauss Rifle (which trades damage for extreme range compared to another PPC or an LBX AC10, which I'd have preferred in that arm), but it isn't at all a horrible gun and works well with the LRM15, so, ya know, fair enough. All around, very strong.

-Archer 8M: Probably the weirdest upgrade in the book. Changing the LRM20s to LRM15s with Artemis IV leaves it in about the same boat, missile wise (but with more ammo and less heat generated). Adding the ERLL doesn't *hurt*, but is weird for an Archer. I'd have rather seen it with LRM20s with Artemis IV instead of the ERLL, but, well, it is mostly a wash and makes it less ammo/range dependent. I mean, not a horrivle version, but weird.

-Warhammer 8D: A totally sound version of the classic mech. Enough heat sinks. Good guns. Good armor. The same classic guns. C3 just for extra ERPPC horribleness. Not my usual, but nice.

-Marauder 5L: All around, perfectly reasonable. I mean, I find the 2xERLL/1xERPPC armament kinda weird (as opposed to the reverse, although there isn't enough weight or heat sink capacity for that). The stealth armor is kind of a weird addition, as this isn't a mech that needs to generate +10 heat a turn, although it also has the TSM to take advantage of the overheating. I mean, it doesn't really *lose* anything by having the stealth armor (as the ECM is always a welcome addition, and it has enough armor without FF), but other than using it to close range safely, I can't imagine that it stays on all that much. But still, a good mech.

-Goliath 4S: The original was never that impressive. This version has the heaviest gun in the game, so, well, there you go. The LRM10 seems superfluous, but, well, it is a walking Heavy Gauss Rifle. So something to recommend it.

-Battlemaster 4S: Totally solid assault mech. Lots of good lasers and a Gauss Rifle. No real complaints to be had. I mean, the SRM6+Artemis would arguably be better as just a streak with half the ammo, but then, if you really want the option for infernos, this version is sound. A very respectable version for what is currently the most iconic mech of the game.

-Longbow 12C: A weird, lumbering missile machine. Which is what the original was, so makes sense. It is certainly going to do a lot of damage with LRMs at range. Reasonable.

-Marauder II 4S: Same 3/5/3 for a 100 ton assault, which is nice. Lots and lots of armor. Very punishing firepower with the 2xERPPCs backed up by the insane Heavy Gauss Rifle. Likely suffers from not enough heat sinks--it probably would have been better served by a regular Gauss Rifle and then more heat sinks (and maybe some ECM too). But still, a huge mech with scary firepower. That can jump! Nice.

So, well, that's my opinion on these upgrades of the classic standards. Overall, a very nice set of mechs with only a few small questionable design decisions (and the only real dubious one is the ammo placement on the Scorpion, and even that isn't that bad due to the CASE). Other opinions?

[Scotty]

I think you might be overestimating how often RACs jam if you're using them correctly, and how minor a RAC jam is compared to UAC jams on the RFL.

[blackjack]

I think you might be overestimating how often RACs jam if you're using them correctly, and how minor a RAC jam is compared to UAC jams on the RFL.

I have to agree, the Rac jams make things "interesting" not game ending. I used a 5D shdowhawk & had two jams in the same game. Got both unjammedon first try.  I went from destroyer to run, run & hide till i got them unjammed!!!

I enjoy all the p-mechs, The valkyrie is a favorite. Great mini also.

[bakija]

I think you might be overestimating how often RACs jam if you're using them correctly, and how minor a RAC jam is compared to UAC jams on the RFL.

I mean, yeah, it is hardly game ending (as you can clear them--why can't you clear a UAC jam?), but given that your jam number is between 2-4 with an RAC 5, if you assume that you jam on a 2-3 (i.e. you regularly fire 4 shots, which seems to be about the most optimal ammo:hit ratio), you are gonna jam 1 time in 12. With 120 rounds on the Rifleman, firing them 4 at a time, you can have 30 volleys (or 15 times per RAC). With 30 volleys, you are gonna jam 2 or 3 times before you use up all the ammo.

Again, not the end of the world by any means. But certainly inconvenient. And not at all unreasonable to point out that the guns are gonna jam before all the ammo is gone. As they likely will. A couple times.

[bakija]

Overall, a very nice set of mechs with only a few small questionable design decisions (and the only real dubious one is the ammo placement on the Scorpion, and even that isn't that bad due to the CASE). Other opinions?

Somehow, I totally spaced on the Scorpion having a Light Engine. So at least the ammo is, uh, "protected" by a couple engine hits, so not even all that bad.

[DarkISI]

You can find even more Phoenix Designs in TRO 3085 which now includes all Project Phoenix 'Mechs with updated fluff and new variants (and of course all the other new stuff from 3085).
The updated and complete Phoenix Record Sheets can be found in RS 3085u Project Phoenix.

[Youngblood]

You can find even more Phoenix Designs in TRO 3085 which now includes all Project Phoenix 'Mechs with updated fluff and new variants (and of course all the other new stuff from 3085).
The updated and complete Phoenix Record Sheets can be found in RS 3085u Project Phoenix.

I highly recommend these as a player.  Some of the variants that only get a sentence or two at the most inside the TROs are actually some of the most interesting designs to grace the canon.  The Locust -6M, for example.

[Scotty]

if you assume that you jam on a 2-3 (i.e. you regularly fire 4 shots, which seems to be about the most optimal ammo:hit ratio), you are gonna jam 1 time in 12. With 120 rounds on the Rifleman, firing them 4 at a time, you can have 30 volleys (or 15 times per RAC). With 30 volleys, you are gonna jam 2 or 3 times before you use up all the ammo.

Incorrect!  There is actually a 7 percent chance of not jamming at all after 30 volleys.  After ten volleys at a 2-3 chance, you've still got a 40% chance that you haven't even jammed once.  Twenty volleys and there's a 27% chance of no jams.  How many times do you hit on 9s during the course of a game?

Remember, 1/12 chance means that the chance of it not happening are 11/12, and any figures should be worked from that number.

[bakija]

Incorrect!  There is actually a 7 percent chance of not jamming at all after 30 volleys.

Sure. Which means that 93% of the time, you'll have jammed. Often multiple times.

And in all likelihood, if you jam 1 time in 12? You'll jam 2-3 times in 30 shots. Will you *always* jam 2-3 times in 30 shots? Nope. But the assessment of "you'll likely jam before you use all your ammo" isn't at all out of the realm of reason.

Remember, 1/12 chance means that the chance of it not happening are 11/12, and any figures should be worked from that number.

Which still roughly works out to jamming 2-3 times in 30 shots (i.e. when you roll to hit 30 times, you'll likely roll a 2 or a 3 a couple times). Will you *always* roll a 2 or 3 a couple times in 30 shots? No. And sometimes you'll freakishly roll a 2 or a 3 a lot. As that is how random works.

But if you jam on a 2 or a 3, and you fire 30 times? In all likelyhood, you'll jam at least twice.

[MadCapellan]

Who has the play time or the ammo to fire a RAC thirty times?!

[bakija]

Who has the play time or the ammo to fire a RAC thirty times?!

Heh--as noted earlier, it is 15 times per gun for each of 2 guns (the Archer 8M has 120 rounds; if you fire an average of 4 shots per RAC, you get 30 volleys; you got 2x RACs, that is 15 shots each). I don't think it is remotely out of the realm of reason to fire 15 times each in a game, especially if it is like Company on Company or something.

Just to look at the RAC5, I can't imagine that firing 2 shots is worth the effort, as you only hit with 2 less then half the time. Firing 3 isn't a bad plan, as you still only jam on a 2, and hit with 2 of the 3 shots most of the time. 4 shots seems like the best plan, as you hit with 3 of the 4 shots more than half the time, but that ups your jam percentage from 1/36 to 3/36. 5 shots doesn't seem like enough of an improvement over 4 to bother wasting the extra ammo. I'd probably only take a 6 shot if I had very good hit odds, but then it also further doubles your jam chance.

[Savage Coyote]

-Wolverine 8K: A totally fantastic version of what was originally very underwhelming. Strong firepower, abundant heat sinks, solid armor, excellent maneuverability. While I always thought the original Wolvernie, saddled with the anemic AC5/ML/SRM6 armament was best looked past. This guy? Great.

I got the chance to design that one way back in the day and is the first of four varients I've gotten the chance to work with since.  I loved the "unseen" art for it but like you, wasn't a fan of the AC5/ML/SRM6 armarment.  I never played "old-school" as I came into the game in the late nineties and didn't know about the Marik version with the large laser.  I always liked swapping out the UAC's from 3050 with ERPPC's, and then updated the other weapons for the "modern" era.  I wanted a hodge-podge, refit look (I think I was looking at the 7M or 7D when I started) and so kept the MPL that all of the 7-series has in the head.  ERML and SSRM-6 round it out, with max armor (could have saved half a ton there)  I added the ERML along side the ERPPC as the original miniature had what looked to me to be a second barrel.  I deliberatly did not use endo as I wanted that refit-look (of course, now it seems in canon it's possible to change out internals with endo... didn't know that back then!  :D

Hind-sights always 20/20, and there are several things I would go back in time and tell myself to do, like either dropping the ERML or dropping the MPL to another ERML and going C3s to fit in with the Combine.  I think I original wanted it as a more Merc-centric unit (which it became eventually) and I hadn't used C3 so didn't know it's benifits.  The other issue?  BV was through the roof in BV1 for a 5/8/5 medium.  BV2 made it worse.  I really hadn't used my own creation for awhile as it did "alright" but not worth the tag.  I play with a group that uses 6k as the standard and in that formate, this guy seems to be able to hold his own in the 6k force I have set up for him.  I did up a mock-up for what I would have done now: std engine, drop the MPL and armor down to 176 and include endo with 13DHS.  Lose the armor and MPL but gain std engine fun.  It was icing on the cake that they chose the 8K to "highlight" the new Phoenix varients; the 8C's pretty brutal for what it does!

As for other Phoenix designs, I love the 6X Rifleman, 8D Warhammer, any of the RAC Marauders, 5D SHawk, 3PL PHawk, 4S and 4M BattleMasters, and 6S Griffin.  I haven't used the new Phoenix varients from 3085 much as of yet, but like the look of many.

[Ian Sharpe]

The WVR-8C is a killer.  Absolutely brutal firepower at short range.

The PXHs are also very good.  The Liao model is useful, but the 3PL and 6D are where its at for me.

[Charlie Tango]

(as you can clear them--why can't you clear a UAC jam?),

Because the UAC is not a "jam" in the same way a RAC jam is.  In the UAC,  the specialized arming/firing mechanism in the weapon that allows the UAC to fire at the double rate seizes up and locks up the gun.  It's not a matter of a shell getting stuck than can be made to become unstuck.

[SCC]

Because the UAC is not a "jam" in the same way a RAC jam is.  In the UAC,  the specialized arming/firing mechanism in the weapon that allows the UAC to fire at the double rate seizes up and locks up the gun.  It's not a matter of a shell getting stuck than can be made to become unstuck.

I thought that had been retconned out due to too many people pointing out that it would be too easy to fix on board

[Wrayth]

I've found RACs to be pretty much hit or miss (no pun intended).  I've never had one jam up in tabletop (yet) while I was using them, but I haven't fielded them much.  I've had them jam a lot in MegaMek, but that's likely due to how streak-y the RNG is in that game.

I've also had some...interesting experiences...when playing against RAC's.  Admittedly, I'm telling this more because it's a good story than because there were RACs in it...

I was fielding a high-BV IS assault lance (Atlas, Berserker, Devastator, Orion) vs. two mixed lances of lighter mechs.  I'd taken a BV and unit count handicap as it was the first time my buddies had played and I wanted them to enjoy it.  I'd expected to have a pretty close match, but what I got was something else entirely.

A few turns into the game, my opponents' lances had closed in on my assaults' prepared position up on a hill.  There wasn't much damage on either side (except for the enemy Flashman that fell six times while trying to cross a 1-hex-wide river), but that was about to change.  The enemy Rifleman had advanced a bit ahead of its teammates, so my Berserker ran out to meet it.  The Rifleman unloaded 5-round bursts from both of its RAC/5's at my Bersker...and proceeded to roll snake eyes on both, jamming them.  In return, my Bersker naturally whiffed with both of its large pulse lasers as a courtesy.  Proceed to the physical attack phase and the Bersker rolled boxcars on hit location for its axe.   Things were looking good.

Next round, my entire lance focused fire on a Stalker that had moved up to threaten the Berserker.  The Stalker lost all of its CT armor and crashed down with engine and gyro hits.  My Berserker had taken some pretty heavy damage from the enemy team in return, losing all but two points of armor on the left torso and getting a TAC to one of its CT engine slots as well.  Still, it was right next to the Stalker with a big, bad axe, and I was feeling pretty good about what was going to happen next...until I failed my PSR for 20+ points of damage.

Then I rolled left torso for falling damage hit location.

Rolling a crit check, I did, indeed, manage to crit myself...right in the engine.  Two engine hits are always bad news, but everywhere else had at least 20 points of armor left (excepting the head, of course), and the likelihood of coming up left torso on the second group of 5 damage was low.  Even if I did manage to hit the left torso again, I had a better than even chance of not producing a crit.  If I did crit myself, I would still have to actually hit the engine and no the pulse laser.  With all of that working for me, I figured I should be fine.

I rolled the dice and got an 8 for hit location.  Unlikely, but probably survivable.   Rolled for crit: 9, one crit.  Aw, hell.  Crit location roll...upper/two: engine.  My Berserker had just heroically fallen upon its own engine, putting itself out of the fight.

Well, damn.  With more BV invested in each mech, the loss of my Berserker hurt me a lot more than losing that Stalker hurt my opponent.  Still, in taking down the Berserker they'd completely ignored my other mechs, meaning I still had two pristine assaults and one pristine heavy.

Next turn rolls around, and their Hussar finishes its end-run around the hill and comes up behind my Devastator, firing pretty much everything.  Of all of the shots, only one medium laser hit.  It did, however, hit the head.  Not enough to breach the armor, but still enough to force a consciousness check at the end of the phase.

More weapons fire is exchanged.  The Devastator and Atlas down the already-damaged Flashman, taking a hit from one of the other mechs' ER mediums to the CT in return.  The only other shot that actually hit the Devastator was a longe range burst from the Enforcer's standard AC/10, needing 10 to hit and getting an 11.   Then, continuing what was now becoming a familiar sequence, the hit location roll came up as boxcars, decapitating the mech.  Aside from a single, 5-point hit to the CT, the Devastator was otherwise pristine.

Crap.  I had almost no chance of winning now, but I was going to be a good sport and play it out, giving my friends a chance to enjoy the game.

Next turn: my Atlas and Orion focused on one of the other mechs (I don't remember which), stripping armor off a few locations but not hitting anything vital.  In return, most of the enemy's return fire missed the Atlas.  Still, about 30 points from 6 weapons managed to connect. Hit locations?  4 of them were inconsequential.  The last two, not so much: TAC to the CT with 2 crits, and TAC to the CT with 1 crit.  Engine, engine, engine.  The Atlas was gone, too.

With just an Orion left facing the bulk of the enemy team and the hour growing late, I conceded the game.

I have never since seen such atrocious runs of luck by both sides, and hope never to again.

[Charlie Tango]

I thought that had been retconned out due to too many people pointing out that it would be too easy to fix on board

Tech Manual has the following to say on the subject:

"Unfortunately, these weapons are prone to occasional misfires and arming failures when pushing their maximum fire rates—a factor that forced many UACs into early retirement after the fall of the original Star League."  -- Tech Manual, p. 208

The simple fact is in-game it is not a jam in the same way that a RAC jams.  It's a malfunction in the arming and firing process that cannot be fixed in combat the same way a RAC jam can be.  Period.  End of story. End of argument.

[SCC]

The problem with explanation is that too many people insist that it should be fixable in-game

[Charlie Tango]

The problem with explanation is that too many people insist that it should be fixable in-game

They can insist all they want.  This is the way the rules say the equipment functions in-game.

[ANS Kamas P81]

They don't "jam" they JAM.  Just Another Malfunction.

[bakija]

Because the UAC is not a "jam" in the same way a RAC jam is.  In the UAC,  the specialized arming/firing mechanism in the weapon that allows the UAC to fire at the double rate seizes up and locks up the gun.  It's not a matter of a shell getting stuck than can be made to become unstuck.

I'm more wondering in a game design/balance sense than a "in game logic" sense--like, I guess I could see an argument that the Ultra AC10 and AC20 could be super devastating on multi fire and the balance is that they can break down permanently, but rather than just having them die all together, just making more difficult to clear a UAC jam based on the size (something like you can clear a jam on Gunnery +2 for a UAC2; +3 for a UAC5; +4 for a UAC10; +5 for a UAC20) would make them all seem a lot more viable.

[bakija]

As for other Phoenix designs, I love the 6X Rifleman, 8D Warhammer, any of the RAC Marauders, 5D SHawk, 3PL PHawk, 4S and 4M BattleMasters, and 6S Griffin.  I haven't used the new Phoenix varients from 3085 much as of yet, but like the look of many.

Yeah, contrary to the perception of my comments on RACs jamming, the new (just the Project Phoenix version--I haven't seen any of the variant variants yet) Rifleman is pretty entertaining seeming; the basic Phoenix Marauder seems solid, but I could see plenty of punchier variants; the Griffin and Wolverine are both fantastic right out of the book (and remarkably similar in BV)--the Griffin appeals to me more simply 'cause it is a Griffin and historically, the Wolverine has been trash, but that Phoenix Wolverine seems kind of brutal.

[Savage Coyote]

Yeah, contrary to the perception of my comments on RACs jamming, the new (just the Project Phoenix version--I haven't seen any of the variant variants yet) Rifleman is pretty entertaining seeming; the basic Phoenix Marauder seems solid, but I could see plenty of punchier variants; the Griffin and Wolverine are both fantastic right out of the book (and remarkably similar in BV)--the Griffin appeals to me more simply 'cause it is a Griffin and historically, the Wolverine has been trash, but that Phoenix Wolverine seems kind of brutal.

Yeah, I wanted the Wolverine to be meaner  8)

The 6X Rifleman is 5/8 with two LB-10X's, two ERML's, and two ERSL's (and four tons of ammo and 10 DHS.)  It's not the heaviest firepower in the world, but it's mobile and realitvly BV cheap (was even cheaper in BV1, which was one of the reason's you'd see it alot back then)  It used to be an old stand-by of mine, but I've kind of forgotten about it lately.

[bakija]

The 6X Rifleman is 5/8 with two LB-10X's, two ERML's, and two ERSL's (and four tons of ammo and 10 DHS.)  It's not the heaviest firepower in the world, but it's mobile and realitvly BV cheap (was even cheaper in BV1, which was one of the reason's you'd see it alot back then)  It used to be an old stand-by of mine, but I've kind of forgotten about it lately.

That sounds like a totally reasonable mech--the LB10X is a very solid gun (arguably the most effective AC in the game; not the most damaging, but the most reasonably designed), and a couple of them is totally solid firepower. And with enough ammo to have 10 each regular and cluster ammo, firing at long range is not a horrible plan. Sounds good to me.

[Wildonion]

That's my Rifleman of choice when I'm sticking to the canon variants. I've found it to be quick and capable of engaging multiple unit types with success. Some good AA (if the enemy fighters get close enough) that can quickly be turned on tanks and PBIs. Slugs are good against heavier Battpe Armor too. Not bad against BattleMechs near its weight class either.

[Ian Sharpe]

The Predator clone?  Its a good mech and definitely useful.  Great for parking slower tanks, then rushing to go park some more.

[Spheroid]

With the PP being out of print the rather bizzare situation exists where there is no official source of info for many common designs in the time period from 3050-3070.

Record sheets don't cut it for me.  I need at least a line of fluff.  Pre-Jihad is important setting that deserves support.

[DarkISI]

With the PP being out of print the rather bizzare situation exists where there is no official source of info for many common designs in the time period from 3050-3070.

Record sheets don't cut it for me.  I need at least a line of fluff.  Pre-Jihad is important setting that deserves support.

All PP units are covered in TRO 3085. With fluff and everything.

[MadCapellan]

I'm fairly certain you can still get the .pdf of Project Phoenix over at BattleCorps as well.

[DarkISI]

I'm fairly certain you can still get the .pdf of Project Phoenix over at BattleCorps as well.

Yep.
http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=57