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Author Topic: Hand-Held Weapons?  (Read 13667 times)

YingJanshi

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Hand-Held Weapons?
« on: 24 December 2012, 19:26:01 »
Are hand-held weapons really any good? I haven't tinkered with them since MaxTech (TO doesn't seem to change any thing). They always seemed kinda useless to me.

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Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #1 on: 24 December 2012, 19:45:41 »
I haven't played with them all that much. To me, it seems that the best uses of Handheld Weapons are either as ambush weapons, loaded with the max number of Rocket Launchers or iOS SRMs for a massive opening salvo that can then be dropped so the 'mech can fight normally. The other use is with iOS LRM racks, giving close-range 'mechs a good long-range salvo that can again be dropped so the 'mech can close and fight normally.
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #2 on: 25 December 2012, 19:32:21 »
If it's good on an ICE Vee it's good in a Handheld, so missile launchers rule the day, TAG is also useful (no multipliers)
They work if you KNOW when you start designing the 'Mech that you're going to be using HH's later on, the Quickdraw-8X is a good example of this (The -8P is NOT, that Stealth Armor on the -8X is to heat the 'Mech up enough to activate the TSM)

The Axman-6X is a bad example, it has torso mounted weapons with longer range and/or higher damage then most of it's options (some of them however are good for giving the -1N more range)

If you limit the HH's size to 5% of the BattleMechs and use the advanced carrying rules in TacOps you can go guns akimo, like this and Atlas (or other 100-tonner) can carry 2 HH's with 5 RL-15's each

House rules (like allowing 'Mech heat sinks to cool energy weapons) change all of this

Wolf72

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #3 on: 25 December 2012, 22:57:20 »
for a 100 ton mech you could use a Heavy Rifle, with one ton of ammo (6 shots?), with one ton of armor ...  Not a great weapon, but it could be useful a bit of softening up (or go with a LAC-5 ... not sure why I'm on a primitive weapons kick ... oh, I remember, I made a 100 ton primitive mech with 4 Heavy Rifles, and got 5th by using a HH gun).

It's like having a simple back up weapon, that you use when everything else is gone or as quick softener before you open up with your main guns.
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #4 on: 26 December 2012, 01:43:39 »
A Heavy Rifle is the same as an AC-5, just does more damage, which in this case could be good

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #5 on: 26 December 2012, 09:45:23 »
FWIW, I found them useful packed with rocket launcher 10s. Put that in the hands of a Spider which can jump all over the place and can carry 6 RL-10s, and suddenly you have a really nasty backstabber. The best part is that the RL-10s are like twice the range of the Spider's normal weapons.

And I've used some Patron Security Mechs (XTRO:RetroTech) in an urban ambush scenario, equipped with a similar weapon. Really nice for them to step out, fire off all three RL-10s and then fall back into cover. Nice to make vehicles (and even light 'Mechs) think twice.

Other than that, the handheld weapon (HHW) isn't really effective. You can pack more weapons and heat sinks in a 'Mech's skeleton or vehicle chassis, and note that the 'mechs I mentioned earlier don't have a lot of torso/arm mounted weapons. If you use a HHW on a BattleMaster, Thunderbolt, or Warlord for example, you actually lose a great deal of firepower since the torso and arm mounted weapons can't be fired while carrying a HHW. (Though again, for ambushes, maybe.)

The only other situation where I can think of it being useful would be in an urban clearing scenario. If you lack units that are effective anti-infantry units, you could probably bang together a HHW with a machine gun or vehicle flamer pretty quickly. You'd just be limiting one of your units. (Maybe give it to a Panther?)

Actually I wonder if the Capellan Confederation would whip up some HHW's devoted to laying/destroying minefields. Something to experiment with.

Wolf72

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #6 on: 26 December 2012, 17:05:17 »
Maybe I skimmed that part of the book real fast ... I thought you could still fire your torso/arm weapons, but not at the same time as your HHW.  So shoot your held weapon, or shoot your torso stuff.

SCC: I like the HR b/c of the limited ammo ... you can use it up quick, then get rid of it (and hope your salvage team gets it before your opponents)
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Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #7 on: 26 December 2012, 17:12:32 »
So shoot your held weapon, or shoot your torso stuff.

To clarify, you cannot fire any torso or arm-mounted weapons if you are carrying a handheld at all, not just in a turn that you fire the hand-held. If you want to fire those torso/arm guns, you must drop the handheld completely.
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Wolf72

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #8 on: 26 December 2012, 21:05:18 »
To clarify, you cannot fire any torso or arm-mounted weapons if you are carrying a handheld at all, not just in a turn that you fire the hand-held. If you want to fire those torso/arm guns, you must drop the handheld completely.

Yeah, that's what I was starting to realise.  We need a new weapon, some sort of 1 or 3 shot BFG.  A one shot LRM-15 hand held would be what ... 7.5 tons.  If you can spare 2 turns you can shoot, drop, then go shoot normally.

[edit: just looking over my mech designs ... and I have solved the problem! ... and created a new one.  I have a 15 ton scout mech, 7/11/6 ... no weapons, but it can hold 2 MG +.5 ammo as a Hand held weapon.  Lets not mention the inherent fragility of a 15 ton mech.]
« Last Edit: 26 December 2012, 21:24:27 by Wolf72 »
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #9 on: 26 December 2012, 23:33:54 »
BattleMech Jump Pack's are a better option for your 15-tonner, you will have 3 tons free for weapon now while upping you Jump MP to 7 (See TacOps pg 293 for details)

Also note that every time one of your arms is hit there is a 1/6 chance that the weapon will be hit, completely destroying it

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #10 on: 27 December 2012, 08:40:26 »
BattleMech Jump Pack's are a better option for your 15-tonner, you will have 3 tons free for weapon now while upping you Jump MP to 7 (See TacOps pg 293 for details)

Also note that every time one of your arms is hit there is a 1/6 chance that the weapon will be hit, completely destroying it
Unless you add armor, which will take up at least half a ton. So that 15 tonner will have a single MG and a half ton of ammo.

Wolf72

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #11 on: 27 December 2012, 21:06:05 »
BattleMech Jump Pack's are a better option for your 15-tonner, you will have 3 tons free for weapon now while upping you Jump MP to 7 (See TacOps pg 293 for details)

Also note that every time one of your arms is hit there is a 1/6 chance that the weapon will be hit, completely destroying it

any hit on a 15 tonner is likely to be game ending for it ... armoring the weapon would be an idea.

Would an ammo explosion from a HH weapon do anything spectacular (aka massively destructive)?
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mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #12 on: 28 December 2012, 08:12:59 »
any hit on a 15 tonner is likely to be game ending for it ... armoring the weapon would be an idea.

Would an ammo explosion from a HH weapon do anything spectacular (aka massively destructive)?
I don't think there are rules for critical hits on a HHW. Once the armor is gone and it takes any damage it's destroyed, so there's no chance of an ammo explosion.

Wolf72

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #13 on: 29 December 2012, 20:53:16 »
I don't think there are rules for critical hits on a HHW. Once the armor is gone and it takes any damage it's destroyed, so there's no chance of an ammo explosion.

so, no mech loosing it's hand because it decided to hold on it's Battletech version of an M-80 then.
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mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #14 on: 31 December 2012, 09:14:29 »
so, no mech loosing it's hand because it decided to hold on it's Battletech version of an M-80 then.
Not officially. You could always home rule it if you really wanted to see that.

Colt Ward

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #15 on: 01 January 2013, 20:19:56 »
I would think HHW would be the best way to quickly arm industrial mechs.  In fact, it might be the best way for Engineer IndiMechs to be armed.
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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #16 on: 01 January 2013, 21:01:51 »
Any 100-ton Indy-Mech with iTSM can carry a weapon the size of a Locust, nuff said

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #17 on: 02 January 2013, 14:54:12 »
But it'll take a +1 penalty to attacks with that weapon, thanks to the iTSM.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #18 on: 02 January 2013, 14:59:22 »
+1 penalty, but 20 tons of gun.

I can dig it.
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wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #19 on: 02 January 2013, 16:29:48 »
What do you guys think of giving a HHW to a LAM for spec ops missions? You free-drop the weapons as cargo, which the LAMs retrieve once they land. They then conduct their mission, using extra firepower they direly need and that a hand-held gives them. Then drop/destroy the weapon prior to converting to ASF mode and bugging out off-world for extraction.

I'm assuming that a LAM can't carry its weapon while it's in modes that don't have hands. Safe assumption, I think.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #20 on: 02 January 2013, 16:35:03 »
Possible, though the full LAM rules when published may prohibit that.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #21 on: 02 January 2013, 17:37:49 »
What do you guys think of giving a HHW to a LAM for spec ops missions? You free-drop the weapons as cargo, which the LAMs retrieve once they land. They then conduct their mission, using extra firepower they direly need and that a hand-held gives them. Then drop/destroy the weapon prior to converting to ASF mode and bugging out off-world for extraction.

I'm assuming that a LAM can't carry its weapon while it's in modes that don't have hands. Safe assumption, I think.

It would be very neat if it could be used as a pod on the LAM though.

I mean, nowadays, the high to hit mods of LAMs are not just theirs;  a 55 tonner with  IJJs and a Partial wing can go 5/8/10 and still have decent weaponry.

It'd be nice to throw the LAMs a bone.

Good idea regardless;  handhelds for special forces.

Wolf72

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #22 on: 02 January 2013, 22:39:34 »
HHW seem fairly limited ... I get that a LAM can't really keep one through transformation, but what about just in Airmech or Mech modes?

on a side note, what do you think the most common HHW would be? (my guess is LRM's and RL's) ... I would think the least common would be any type of energy weapon ... a single ER ML would be a 6 ton HHW, a regular ML would still be 4 tons. hmmm the Light PPC would be 8 tons, that I could use until I remember no torso/arm weapons till said hand weapon is dropped.

Can we fudge the rules and make AC's less than full ton counts? ... Maybe only have 3 or 4 rounds for and AC-5, but still count the ammo as a full ton lot?
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #23 on: 02 January 2013, 22:51:46 »
The rules for HH have changed, you only pay the weight of the ammo shots you take
Just remember that HH's are limited to 10% of the 'Mechs weight, meaning that you are Clan Class-2, Light and ProtoMech AC's. Also on offer are MagShot and AP Gauss Rifles and some of the smaller energy weapons

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #24 on: 03 January 2013, 05:05:31 »
Any 100-ton Indy-Mech with iTSM can carry a weapon the size of a Locust, nuff said
Yeah, but which ones HAVE iTSM?
+1 penalty, but 20 tons of gun.

I can dig it.
Shame you can't put an HGR in, that plus four shots and one ton of armor would be perfect for a disposable 'hit and flee' unit that's not supposed to do more than be a nasty surprise.  As for what you CAN do, well, six weapons...LB20 with a ton of cluster, and some SRMs would make a fun little HI THERE moment.  Alternatively, you don't need to bother...oh that's sick.  100 tonners with TSM and HHW-Maces anyone?

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #25 on: 03 January 2013, 08:39:40 »
I would think HHW would be the best way to quickly arm industrial mechs.  In fact, it might be the best way for Engineer IndiMechs to be armed.
That just sparked an idea.
Yeah, but which ones HAVE iTSM?
I think I hear the siren song of a new design going into the forums. ;)

Or maybe the updated TRO:VA.
Shame you can't put an HGR in, that plus four shots and one ton of armor would be perfect for a disposable 'hit and flee' unit that's not supposed to do more than be a nasty surprise.  As for what you CAN do, well, six weapons...LB20 with a ton of cluster, and some SRMs would make a fun little HI THERE moment.  Alternatively, you don't need to bother...oh that's sick.  100 tonners with TSM and HHW-Maces anyone?
Point of order: The HHW is for ranged weapons only. Physical weapons like Maces can't go into a HHW. (Unless you mean the HHW was being carried by a 'Mech with a Mace, in which case I just wet my pants.)

on a side note, what do you think the most common HHW would be? (my guess is LRM's and RL's) ... I would think the least common would be any type of energy weapon ... a single ER ML would be a 6 ton HHW, a regular ML would still be 4 tons. hmmm the Light PPC would be 8 tons, that I could use until I remember no torso/arm weapons till said hand weapon is dropped.
I think missiles and ballistic weapons are the best for HHW, as you suggested. Putting energy weapons in the HHW requires single heat sinks to dissipate the heat they generate, so your already limited payload space gets eaten up pretty quickly. The reason I typically use Rocket Launchers is that they're one shot weapons that you can fire and then drop the HHW to get your 'Mechs "real guns" into the fight pretty quickly. They also provide a pretty good punch for the weight.

That aside, I can see a HHW that uses an MML of some sort with a combined LRM/SRM ammunition load. That way you could pepper an enemy with a few shots here and there. Not really a main gun, but still nice for fast movers with limited range weapons like pulse lasers. Maybe the Fireball or Spider/Venom series?

Edit: Oh! I just realized you could take the 100 ton IndustrialMech with TSM and use it to carry an MRM40, with ammo and armor. Use them for area saturation. Hilarity ensues.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #26 on: 03 January 2013, 10:47:38 »
The HHW is for ranged weapons only. Physical weapons like Maces can't go into a HHW. (Unless you mean the HHW was being carried by a 'Mech with a Mace, in which case I just wet my pants.)

You can actually, though the rules a re a bit ambiguous on exact usage.

Quote
Tac Ops pg. 314

"Regardless of the total tonnage used, a Handheld Weapon may be constructed with a maximum of six heavy (vehicular-class) weapons or a single BattleMech
Melee weapon
, not counting ammunition and heat sinks"

That tells me that if you mount a handheld melee weapon, that is all that can be in the handheld.    However, page 316 implies that you can mount a mixture, it just destroys the guns if the melee weapon is ever used. 

Quote
Tac Ops pg. 316

Fixed-damage melee weapons (such
as Chainsaws) deliver damage as normal, but maintain the Handheld Weapons’ restriction that both hands are required for use. Any other, non-melee items mounted in a Handheld
mount used in a melee attack are destroyed on a successful physical attack using the Handheld Weapon, though the mount itself may be used for subsequent physical attacks. If a
Physical Attack Weapon (including all BattleMech Melee Weapons) is a Handheld weapon and used in a physical/melee attack, the special properties of such weapons (such as the
defense modes of a shield, the entangling attack of a whip, and so on), are ignored.


You can explicitly carry just a slab of armor and use it as a club/shield until it gets blown up.

YingJanshi

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #27 on: 03 January 2013, 23:32:07 »
Quote
Quote
Tac Ops pg. 314

"Regardless of the total tonnage used, a Handheld Weapon may be constructed with a maximum of six heavy (vehicular-class) weapons or a single BattleMech
Melee weapon, not counting ammunition and heat sinks"

What, does that mean that 100 tonners can use Maces?  >:D  Wait...  #P

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YingJanshi

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #28 on: 03 January 2013, 23:37:00 »
It does! It does! Ooooh I can have so much fun with this...   [drool] >:D >:D

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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #29 on: 04 January 2013, 03:05:40 »
And you can AES to offset the to-hit penalty or TSM so you can hold the thing in one hand, allowing you to use arm and torso mounted weapons with a forward arc

 

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