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Author Topic: Hand-Held Weapons?  (Read 13745 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #30 on: 04 January 2013, 03:25:17 »
No, you have to use both hands when using HHWs.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #31 on: 04 January 2013, 08:28:35 »
You can actually, though the rules a re a bit ambiguous on exact usage.

That tells me that if you mount a handheld melee weapon, that is all that can be in the handheld.    However, page 316 implies that you can mount a mixture, it just destroys the guns if the melee weapon is ever used. 


You can explicitly carry just a slab of armor and use it as a club/shield until it gets blown up.
Huh. Well you learn something new every day.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #32 on: 04 January 2013, 10:10:00 »
It does! It does! Ooooh I can have so much fun with this...   [drool] >:D >:D

Sort of. 

There's an addendum -- all melee weapons basing their damage on tonnage lose their special abilities, and function as a club.
Quote
If using a Handheld weapon for a melee attack, use the standard club attack rules (see pp. 145-146, TW) for all damage based on tonnage. Fixed-damage melee weapons (such as Chainsaws) deliver damage as normal, but maintain the Handheld Weapons’ restriction that both hands are required for use. Any other, non-melee items mounted in a Handheld mount used in a melee attack are destroyed on a successful physical attack using the Handheld Weapon, though the mount itself may be used for subsequent physical attacks.

So, if my question is answered in the affirmative, you're better off just carrying a slab of armor instead of mounting a melee weapon.  It's got a 1/6 chance of intercepting any  arm hit.


The REAL use for handhelds would be on light units operating as special forces.

Say you get artillery support for a battle - give your Spider a handheld TAG unit .  Otherwise give him a dual RL-20  handheld to be used in a backstab attack, to be followed by his lasers.


I can also see mechs like my Megatherium making use of only handhelds in Solaris.  It'd be an interesting showman's mech if piloted by a GOOD pilot (to offset the whopping +2 to PS rolls).  Alternatively the mech can go to Single heat sinks, drop two er medium lasers and two small lasers, and mount a lift hoist -- to be used as a sheath for your handheld, or to carry a second one.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2013, 14:51:14 by anusol »

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #33 on: 04 January 2013, 10:56:11 »
No, you have to use both hands when using HHWs.

What he said. NOTHING gets you around the two-hands/no firing relevant guns rule.
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #34 on: 04 January 2013, 11:11:17 »
What he said. NOTHING gets you around the two-hands/no firing relevant guns rule.

Right.  I'm pretty certain that is the case.  I just figured I'd throw that question in just in case.  I've seen several people on the board referencing dual handhelds @5% each, and could not find a place where CGL unequivocally stated this was illegal.   Most of those questions are just to clarify for everyone.


I mean, under the Cargo rules merely holding it prevents you from firing, and requires both hands.  Why would a handheld weapon be any different, when it explicitly states that they follow cargo rules?

Unfortunately the -3 MP from Cargo rules makes it so that only jump capable mechs can make any real use of handhelds.

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #35 on: 04 January 2013, 11:39:03 »
Unfortunately the -3 MP from Cargo rules makes it so that only jump capable mechs can make any real use of handhelds.

Page 216 of Total War is your friend. 8)

Quote from: Total War
Note that ‘Mechs suffer no movement penalties provided that they are carrying no more than 10% of their constructed weight (20% with active Triple-Strength Myomer).
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #36 on: 04 January 2013, 11:53:11 »
Page 216 of Total War is your friend. 8)

Is that errata or something?

I bought the TW PDF last week.  That sentence is nowhere in it.  I'm glad that it is the case,  but it isn't in my copy.


page 261 -

Quote
’Mech Lifting Capabilities: In some situations, a
MechWarrior may want his machine to lift and carry a piece
of equipment. A ’Mech may not pick up another unit. Only
’Mechs with functioning hand actuators may pick up an object.
To pick up an object, a ’Mech must end its Movement Phase in
the same hex as the object, it must have an undamaged hand
actuator in both arms and it may make no weapon or physical
attacks that turn. A ’Mech can pick up objects weighing up to
ten percent of its tonnage (this is increased to 20 percent of
the ’Mech mounts operating Triple Strength Myomer, see p.
143). While the ’Mech is carrying the object, it cannot fi re any
arm or forward-fi ring torso-mounted weapons, make punching
or pushing attacks, use a club or make physical weapon
attacks, though it may charge, kick and execute death-fromabove
attacks. In addition, the ’Mech suff ers the limitations
described in Cargo Carriers, above.


and the Movement Penalties section -

Quote
Movement Penalties: Unlike cargo in a dedicated cargo
bay, a unit carrying external cargo must modify its movement.
Cargo weighing up to a quarter of the carrying unit’s weight
subtracts 3 from—or cuts in half, rounding down—the carrier’s
Walking/Cruising MP, whichever is less. A unit carrying
a load weighing more than a quarter of its own tonnage may
only move at half its Walking/Cruising MP (round down).

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #37 on: 04 January 2013, 11:58:31 »
Odd, it's in my PDF, though mine is older. It's not anywhere on that page, or the next?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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DarkISI

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #38 on: 04 January 2013, 12:02:15 »
Nope, nowhere.
But the errata file also mentions no such change, so it seems to be an error. On what end, though... should there be something in the errata file or should the entry still be there... that would need to be cleared up.
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #39 on: 04 January 2013, 12:03:26 »
Odd, it's in my PDF, though mine is older. It's not anywhere on that page, or the next?

No.  The next page moves on to breakthrough scenarios.  I bought it through DriveThru;  maybe it's an older revision or something?


I've found a few  other oddities -- my Tac Ops has sections of the Handheld weapon text repeated, for instance.

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #40 on: 04 January 2013, 12:04:32 »
This sounds like a mystery. Follow me! I have a Giggins painted with pastel flowers for just this purpose!
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #41 on: 04 January 2013, 12:12:37 »
I updated my question posted earlier, to reflect this indiscrepancy.

Depending upon what they rule, I'll make an errata request later.

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #42 on: 04 January 2013, 12:20:31 »
My copy of TW is dated 7/11 and it includes the text regarding weight limits:

Quote from: pg. 261 of Total Warfare
’Mech lifting Capabilities: In some situations, a
MechWarrior may want his machine to lift and carry a piece
of equipment. A ’Mech may not pick up another unit. Only
’Mechs with functioning hand actuators may pick up an object.
To pick up an object, a ’Mech must end its Movement Phase in
the same hex as the object, it must have an undamaged hand
actuator in both arms and it may make no weapon or physical
attacks that turn. A ’Mech can pick up objects weighing up to
ten percent of its tonnage (this is increased to 20 percent of
the ’Mech mounts operating Triple Strength Myomer, see p.
143). While the ’Mech is carrying the object, it cannot fi re any
arm or forward-fi ring torso-mounted weapons, make punching
or pushing attacks, use a club or make physical weapon
attacks, though it may charge, kick and execute death-fromabove
attacks. In addition, the ’Mech suff ers the limitations
described in Cargo Carriers, above. Note that ‘Mechs suff er no
movement penalties provided that they are carrying no more
than 10% of their constructed weight (20% with active Triple-
Strength Myomer).

However, my original print copy does not contain this so any pdf's missing this text would be from the original printing.  Maybe Overdrive does not provide updates to pdf's like BattleCorps does?

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #43 on: 04 January 2013, 12:24:34 »
My copy of TW is dated 7/11 and it includes the text regarding weight limits:

However, my original print copy does not contain this so any pdf's missing this text would be from the original printing.  Maybe Overdrive does not provide updates to pdf's like BattleCorps does?

That really sucks.  They just lost my business.  BattleCorps it is from now on.

So all my brand new books are out of date maybe.  Great.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #44 on: 04 January 2013, 12:32:36 »
Maybe. This may be an error in the PDF files somehow, or an error and they meant to update the file, or something else entirely. My advice would be to wait until you get the full story, then contact them. It may be a mixup.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #45 on: 04 January 2013, 12:33:41 »
My copy of TW is dated 7/11 and it includes the text regarding weight limits:

However, my original print copy does not contain this so any pdf's missing this text would be from the original printing.  Maybe Overdrive does not provide updates to pdf's like BattleCorps does?

They usually do and I just found the line in my PDF. Strange how the search function didn't find it.

Anusol, please look on page 7 for the following lines

Quote
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs.

That's the most current PDF release.
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #46 on: 04 January 2013, 12:38:32 »
They usually do and I just found the line in my PDF. Strange how the search function didn't find it.

Anusol, please look on page 7 for the following lines

That's the most current PDF release.

Quote
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs. Printed in Thailand.

That's there. 

The line isn't, however. 
Quote
’Mech Lifting Capabilities: In some situations, a
MechWarrior may want his machine to lift and carry a piece
of equipment. A ’Mech may not pick up another unit. Only
’Mechs with functioning hand actuators may pick up an object.
To pick up an object, a ’Mech must end its Movement Phase in
the same hex as the object, it must have an undamaged hand
actuator in both arms and it may make no weapon or physical
attacks that turn. A ’Mech can pick up objects weighing up to
ten percent of its tonnage (this is increased to 20 percent of
the ’Mech mounts operating Triple Strength Myomer, see p.
143). While the ’Mech is carrying the object, it cannot fi re any
arm or forward-fi ring torso-mounted weapons, make punching
or pushing attacks, use a club or make physical weapon
attacks, though it may charge, kick and execute death-fromabove
attacks. In addition, the ’Mech suff ers the limitations
described in Cargo Carriers, above.
Force Composition
Both sides start with an equal number of units.
Battle Value: If using the BV system,


Skips right over it.  weird.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #47 on: 04 January 2013, 12:43:29 »
Very weird. And too neat to be a file error...
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #48 on: 04 January 2013, 12:54:51 »
Very weird. And too neat to be a file error...

well, nice to know it is the case at least.  Now I'm off to build a cheap 5/8/5 55 ton omni with a head turret and leg spaces free, to make maximum use of handhelds in guerrilla ops.

I wonder what other subtle malfups are waiting for me.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #49 on: 04 January 2013, 13:09:36 »
Found a 2nd pdf, titled CAT35001TWBattleCorps.pdf in the directory.

It DOES have the line, and notably the

Quote
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs.

DOES NOT include the note about Thailand.

Why I got two versions of the same PDF I have no idea.

Xotl

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #50 on: 04 January 2013, 13:14:08 »
Interesting - the one I'm working off of does not have the printed in Thailand note, but otherwise has the same copyright notice.  I can't believe there's two versions of the same "third printing" out there.  Bleah.

I'll message Randall and see what can be done.

Does anyone have a hardcopy of the third printing?  If so, could you check to see if the note on p. 261 is in the hardback?
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Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #51 on: 04 January 2013, 13:20:31 »
Quote from: pp 7 of Total Warfare
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs.

Published by Catalyst Game Labs,
an imprint of InMediaRes Productions, LLC
PMB 202 • 303 91st Ave NE • E502 • Lake Stevens, WA 98258

Mine does not mention being printed in Thailand either.  Obviously a mix up occurred at some point.  Very strange.   ???

Xotl

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #52 on: 04 January 2013, 13:24:12 »
Pardon the temporary hijack here: anuson, does the Thailand copy have "©2006-2011 The Topps Compnay, Inc." (complete with typo in "company")?
« Last Edit: 04 January 2013, 13:50:46 by Xotl »
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #53 on: 04 January 2013, 13:26:34 »
The thailand PDF is about 560 kb bigger than the CAT35001 pdf.  I wonder what else is different?


Gimme a few minutes while I cut/paste ALL of the text into some text files and do an examdiff.


Pardon the temporary hijack here: anuson, does the Thailand copy have "©2006-2011 The Topps Compnay, Inc." (complate with typo in "company")?

A search for "Compnay" turns up nothing. Would you like me to share the pdf via dropbox and PM/email you the link?

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #54 on: 04 January 2013, 13:39:33 »
If you wouldn't mind I'd appreciate that greatly.  PM me.

Thanks for your help on this.
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Xotl

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #55 on: 04 January 2013, 14:07:56 »
Thanks for the file - I've figured it out.  When the third printing first came out it was accidentally a pre-release file that was being sold/offered, rather than the proper completed file.  That's since been corrected here on Catalyst's end some time ago, so I had forgotten about it, but this one you sent me has the same PDF annotations by Randall on pages 18 and 39 that the accidental pre-release had, so now I remember.

I'll take this up the chain and see about get the newer, proper file into the hands of DriveThru.

Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled handheld weapon chat. :)
« Last Edit: 04 January 2013, 14:32:12 by Xotl »
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #56 on: 04 January 2013, 14:28:57 »
So, after all this, we now DEFINITIVELY know that handhelds do not lower MP.  That's nice.


It also looks (LOOKS like a mech can go in with a pistol in one arm, and still fire weapons from the other, per Tac Ops pg. 95. Apparently it can carry 5% tonnage one handed, but can it fire one-handed?


I guess I should update my question.  Or maybe I shouldn't, since they're "researching" already?

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #57 on: 04 January 2013, 14:51:36 »
Hmm, 10% is still a fair amount. For Mediums it could be a pair of LRM5s or SRM4s with half a ton of ammo and armour. Load Thunders or Infernos in that, and you have some excellent and cheap versatility.


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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #58 on: 04 January 2013, 14:57:26 »
Yep, even a standard 20 tonner could pack a RL-20 and a half ton of armor with no worries.  You run up, shoot them in the back, club them over the back of the head and run away cackling like a madman.   :))

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #59 on: 04 January 2013, 14:58:17 »
You run up, shoot them in the back, club them over the back of the head and run away cackling like a madman.   :))

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"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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