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Author Topic: Hand-Held Weapons?  (Read 12841 times)

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #60 on: 04 January 2013, 15:09:13 »
Yeah, a 50 tonner could carry a pair of iOS SRM-6s even, or a MML-5 with two tons of ammo.

Best just to go with 3 RL-20s and a RL-10 though.

Marwynn

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #61 on: 04 January 2013, 15:15:52 »
I was thinking of say giving a Hunchie 4G some LRM5s and half a ton of ammo/armour. It's not going to kill anything without some really lucky hits, but neither is it completely defenseless. That's 6 shots total for the LRM5s, not too shabby.

Wait, are HHWs later, post 3050 tech?

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #62 on: 04 January 2013, 15:25:37 »
Yeah, a 50 tonner could carry a pair of iOS SRM-6s even, or a MML-5 with two tons of ammo.

Best just to go with 3 RL-20s and a RL-10 though.

A medium should have some decent weaponry generally speaking.  I don't think I would want to tie up my arm and torso weapons for an extended period of time.  Just give me something that gives me one really good opening round punch.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #63 on: 04 January 2013, 15:26:38 »
Best just to go with 3 RL-20s and a RL-10 though.

It's situational. If I were forced to send a lance of Stingers to skirmish or delay an oncoming force expected to contain conventional units, I'd issue them iOS-LRM-5s loaded with T-Aug ammo. Lay the minefields in a good spot, and you either force them to go around(possibly through very hindering terrain), or force motive crits(good chance of REALLY slowing them down. Then I'd have them fall back to whatever pack mule accompanied them and have them pick up an RL handheld, for a single harassing pass as the remainder, going for even more motive crits.

Then they'd be under orders to retreat. Mission's probably accomplished, or they can't do much more without near-suicidal tactics.

Another idea(that actually got published as a handheld for the Axeman) would be a Fluid Gun handheld with a single ton of ammo. When an enemy approaches a city you're holding, break out the super soakers and have 'mechs lay down oil slicks while falling back to ambush positions. You'll have enemy 'mechs literally sliding right into your traps, and without having to strip guns from your 'mechs for the squirters. }:)

Long story short: I don't see handhelds as adding firepower, I see them as adding flexibility and tricks up your sleeve. Much like OmniMechs, they make your force unpredictable, so your enemy can never know what you're going to use against him, even if his intel tells him exactly what 'mechs you have.
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #64 on: 04 January 2013, 15:32:18 »
I was thinking of say giving a Hunchie 4G some LRM5s and half a ton of ammo/armour. It's not going to kill anything without some really lucky hits, but neither is it completely defenseless. That's 6 shots total for the LRM5s, not too shabby.

Wait, are HHWs later, post 3050 tech?

It states they've been in development for the majority of the time since the Terran Hegemony, so no worries there.


There isn't really a need for armor unless you plan to hold on to it for a while;  there is only a 1/6 chance for each ARM HIT that it gets damaged after all.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #65 on: 04 January 2013, 15:43:11 »
It's situational. If I were forced to send a lance of Stingers to skirmish or delay an oncoming force expected to contain conventional units, I'd issue them iOS-LRM-5s loaded with T-Aug ammo. Lay the minefields in a good spot, and you either force them to go around(possibly through very hindering terrain), or force motive crits(good chance of REALLY slowing them down. Then I'd have them fall back to whatever pack mule accompanied them and have them pick up an RL handheld, for a single harassing pass as the remainder, going for even more motive crits.

Then they'd be under orders to retreat. Mission's probably accomplished, or they can't do much more without near-suicidal tactics.

Another idea(that actually got published as a handheld for the Axeman) would be a Fluid Gun handheld with a single ton of ammo. When an enemy approaches a city you're holding, break out the super soakers and have 'mechs lay down oil slicks while falling back to ambush positions. You'll have enemy 'mechs literally sliding right into your traps, and without having to strip guns from your 'mechs for the squirters. }:)

Long story short: I don't see handhelds as adding firepower, I see them as adding flexibility and tricks up your sleeve. Much like OmniMechs, they make your force unpredictable, so your enemy can never know what you're going to use against him, even if his intel tells him exactly what 'mechs you have.

I didn't think about augmented thunders versus conventional armor.  That and the slickers are great ideas.  Tag.  Flak LACs for impromptu anti-air.
Flamer/plasma rifles for city destruction, anti-infantry attacks, and forestry work.

LOTS of uses for Industrial mechs too. 

« Last Edit: 04 January 2013, 16:36:57 by anusol »

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #66 on: 04 January 2013, 15:50:56 »
I didn't think about augmented thunders versus conventional mechs.

I actually meant against tanks. They do NOT like minefields. There's not much an Alacorn or Demolisher can do to your force if someone runs out real quick and uses a minefield to park it out of range. Considering the heavy emphasis on combined arms these days, you can deprive an enemy of a lot of firepower by stopping/delaying his tanks.

I do like the idea of a flak LAC, that's not bad.
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #67 on: 04 January 2013, 16:42:35 »
I actually meant against tanks. They do NOT like minefields. There's not much an Alacorn or Demolisher can do to your force if someone runs out real quick and uses a minefield to park it out of range. Considering the heavy emphasis on combined arms these days, you can deprive an enemy of a lot of firepower by stopping/delaying his tanks.

I do like the idea of a flak LAC, that's not bad.

Yeah.  typo on my part.

Also -- a swarm of 30 tonners with fluid guns carrying acid ammo.  Hell, a handheld is a GREAT option for a Javelin in every way.

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #68 on: 04 January 2013, 17:08:37 »
It occurs to me that an armory of handheld "rifles" would be a great way to instantly arm industrial mechs in an emergency.  It loses a little in strict game terms but it would make an AWESOME fluff piece. 

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #69 on: 04 January 2013, 17:13:30 »
The trick is finding Workmechs with two hands. Only the loadermechs come to mind, though you could indeed field a bajillion of them for dirt cheap.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
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Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #70 on: 04 January 2013, 17:17:48 »
The trick is finding Workmechs with two hands. Only the loadermechs come to mind, though you could indeed field a bajillion of them for dirt cheap.

Well I was thinking spaceport when I had the idea...

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #71 on: 04 January 2013, 17:25:38 »
Works for me. O0

Heck, I could actually see this being standard procedure in some places, such as spaceports or rail yards owned by a defense corporation that cannot afford true Battlemechs. Workmechs go about their day, but in case of attack, they run to dedicated sheds that have handheld weapons hidden inside. MinuteMechs! :D
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #72 on: 04 January 2013, 17:26:52 »
Well I was thinking spaceport when I had the idea...

Honestly, it would be a good idea for small military bases too.  Keep a stock of several types of rifle ready for short-notice conflicts, or for types of conflict your force of mechs is normally ill equipped for.


Neat idea for a slave revolt in the periphery as well...  coordinate all the loader mechs at the air port to pull rifles at the correct  time, when the Great Leader is on the airstrip or something...

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #73 on: 04 January 2013, 17:27:42 »
Not bad...I might steal that for a scenario set in Marian space.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #74 on: 04 January 2013, 17:35:21 »
I'm one of the people who's said stuff about the 5% rule, and yes I was thinking TacOps (pg. 92 in my version), the way I see it is that if the HH is light enough to be carried one handed it can be fired one handed

LoaderMechs are a good idea, them having ITSM is very likely to, nice

As for the Axman-6X, worst platform to carry handhelds that I know of

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #75 on: 04 January 2013, 18:00:31 »
  HERE  I have tried to make an Omni geared toward always using handhelds.

Any critiques for the odd ball design would be greatly appreciated.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #76 on: 04 January 2013, 18:05:00 »
I'm one of the people who's said stuff about the 5% rule, and yes I was thinking TacOps (pg. 92 in my version), the way I see it is that if the HH is light enough to be carried one handed it can be fired one handed

There's a vast difference between picking up a small object one-handed, and holding, aiming, and firing a weapon. Sure, humans can sometimes do it, but 'mechs are not humans, despite the resemblance. I suspect that's why the Handheld rules are very clear on requiring two hands, and blocking all arm and torso guns. I'm not seeing any exception to this in the Picking Up Objects rules. Sure, you can pick up a sufficiently small Handheld with one hand, but you need two hands to carry it as anything other than bulk cargo.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #77 on: 04 January 2013, 18:27:23 »
The MinuteMech idea has a high coolness factor, but I ought to point out that using Omni tech you can get weapons onto your mech anyway with almost as much ease. Now if you don't have omnis, that's a different story.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #78 on: 04 January 2013, 18:46:42 »
I'm pretty sure that if you're in a situation where you think of using HHW armed Loadermechs as a security force, it's a fairly safe assumption that omnimechs are out of the question.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #79 on: 04 January 2013, 19:01:46 »
HHW seem fairly limited ... I get that a LAM can't really keep one through transformation, but what about just in Airmech or Mech modes?
What about storing a HHW in a cargo-bay or bomb-bay?
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wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #80 on: 04 January 2013, 19:32:52 »
I'm pretty sure that if you're in a situation where you think of using HHW armed Loadermechs as a security force, it's a fairly safe assumption that omnimechs are out of the question.

Actually Omni industrialmechs and vehicles make a great deal of sense, especially for a mobile force or a remote colony, both of who need to minimize their logistical footprints. In addition to the support/maintenance advantages, you need fewer chasses to do the same number of things.

A remote colony that gets visited very rarely by merchant dropships might benefit from being able to temporarily convert a couple of its agromechs/constructionmechs into LoaderMechs, then switch them back once the merchants are gone. A forestry Mech, once it clears the land for a farm, can switch to construction duties during the growing season, and then switch to harvesting in the fall for a few weeks, before going back to construction duties. For a +25% price increase, you can use one Mech where you might have used several specialists.

Then slap on a few weapons pods and you're a combat mech... Handheld weapons give you a quick boost to your firepower, or let you arm yourself if they swoop in before you can reconfigure.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #81 on: 04 January 2013, 19:36:39 »
Great.

Now convince a factory that there's a large enough market to produce such a thing.

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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #82 on: 05 January 2013, 01:17:50 »
Great.

Now convince a factory that there's a large enough market to produce such a thing.
Considering that there's a cannon Omni-Train and that trains pretty much that sort of ability in the real world by changing carriages I can see it happening.

Plus it's not so much convincing the factory, but rather a state ordering it, and that I can see happening, Omni version of the J-27 anyone? (Only vehicle able to carry DHS's)

Marwynn

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #83 on: 05 January 2013, 18:20:35 »
Great.

Now convince a factory that there's a large enough market to produce such a thing.

With one standardized chassis you can focus on selling podded components and increase sales beyond the initial purchase and maintenance agreements. You establish a wide enough base and you can create your own market for pods--those clients you once had who only wanted LoaderMechs might purchase the FireMech loadouts as well.

brotherelf

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #84 on: 06 January 2013, 05:46:29 »
Shame you can't put an HGR in, that plus four shots and one ton of armor would be perfect for a disposable 'hit and flee' unit that's not supposed to do more than be a nasty surprise.

Hmmm... a very brief look doesn't reveal anything to me that would prevent a HHW-ArrowIV, or Sniper-Cannon  >:D

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #85 on: 06 January 2013, 06:29:14 »
Nothing with location restrictions~

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #86 on: 06 January 2013, 18:32:39 »
With one standardized chassis you can focus on selling podded components and increase sales beyond the initial purchase and maintenance agreements. You establish a wide enough base and you can create your own market for pods--those clients you once had who only wanted LoaderMechs might purchase the FireMech loadouts as well.

Omni's are expensive compared to a standard chassis.  Unlike a military organization cost is going to be the number one concern for a civilian outfit.  If I needed 20 loadermechs I MIGHT buy one as an omni model but I'm not going to buy more than that. 

YingJanshi

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #87 on: 06 January 2013, 22:30:39 »
Hmmm... a very brief look doesn't reveal anything to me that would prevent a HHW-ArrowIV, or Sniper-Cannon  >:D


Nothing as long as you have a Superheavy 'Mech to carry the heavy beast.

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wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #88 on: 06 January 2013, 22:31:03 »
Omni's are expensive compared to a standard chassis.  Unlike a military organization cost is going to be the number one concern for a civilian outfit.  If I needed 20 loadermechs I MIGHT buy one as an omni model but I'm not going to buy more than that.

Put it another way. Is a 20% discount enough to justify buying four times as many specialized mechs as one general purpose mech that can be reconfigured to do many jobs at many times, rather than spending most of its time sitting unused in a warehouse?

Plus 25% to the purchase price is very, very minor when you consider the overall reduction in the Total Cost of Ownership. PLUS, your Mech can be reconfigured to be used in many situations rather than the one specialist role it was built for. That one do-all device replaces several specialist machines that you would otherwise have had to buy and support separately. So cost actually goes down.

This has come up a few times in the Clans forum. The Clan warrior caste totally missed the boat about the value of Omni tech. They think they're saving resources reserving Omnis to front line military Mechs, but in reality they could have transitioned their entire vehicle fleets over to Omni, military and civilian, and in so doing greatly cut their operating expenses. It's a false economy to think you're saving money doing it the hard way. Which is a nice touch on the part of the writers, IMO, because this happens all the time in history.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #89 on: 06 January 2013, 22:41:19 »
That assumes that the purchaser has more than one general use for the mech in the first place.  There's not too much call for a forestry mech at a dropship port, or a heavy duty construction mech on a family farm (something that can be rigged for light construction work to assist in raising a barn, sure, but not something you'd use for building a skyscraper).

And for those agencies that use multiple types of industrialmechs, when it comes to buying 20 standard mechs vs 15 omnis, maybe they want 20 mechs for a reason, even if they're going 10 and 10 of two different types because they can run that many mechs simultaneously.

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