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Author Topic: Hand-Held Weapons?  (Read 13199 times)

YingJanshi

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #120 on: 07 January 2013, 19:01:46 »
I was going off the 3.1 errata pdf. Sorry I don't have it with me at the moment so I can't quote from it.

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mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #121 on: 08 January 2013, 08:05:29 »
Clubbing damage only. Doubled vs baby seals.
Boo.

Though a HHW with a narc pod might be nice for faster units. Hit them with the pod and let your missile boats bring on the fun.

Istal_Devalis

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #122 on: 08 January 2013, 08:56:24 »
Aside from the lack of a lift hoist for carrying it on most mechs?
If you have working hand actuators, you can carry up to 10% of a mechs' weight in cargo in them (TW p.261). Lift Hoists just increase the weight they can lift (TW p.136)

Of course, rereading that particular section reminds me that mechs carrying cargo in their hands cant use torso or arm mounted weaponry anyways.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #123 on: 08 January 2013, 10:20:40 »
Though a HHW with a narc pod might be nice for faster units. Hit them with the pod and let your missile boats bring on the fun.

This is a nice idea. 25 tonners and up can carry an iOS NARC, and 40 tonners and up can carry a regular one with a ton of ammo. Sounds like a good way to make an all-3025 force much more effective... O0
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Fletch

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #124 on: 08 January 2013, 21:46:51 »
Caveat - I understand that art doesn't trump rules and the use of logic kills cat girls.....

but regardless....

I don't understand why a mech carry a HHW in one hand has to give up the ability to fire torso and other arm weapons.  For a mech carrying a HHW that requires both hands, that does makes sense.

Then you start to think that if a mech firing his right arm weapons to the left of the front arc and the left arm weapon to the right of the front arc the cross over would interfere with the firing of Torso weapons....

my head hurts, back to work.....

SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #125 on: 08 January 2013, 21:59:01 »
It doesn't Fletch, it only gives up the ability to fire weapons in the arm holding the HH

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #126 on: 08 January 2013, 22:38:34 »
It doesn't Fletch, it only gives up the ability to fire weapons in the arm holding the HH

Best case it gives up torsos and one arm. Worst both arms and all torsos.

This is an ambiguous case now. See tac ops pg. 92 IIRC for single hand cargo, and tw 261 for normal cargo restrictions.


Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #127 on: 08 January 2013, 23:38:21 »
I don't understand why a mech carry a HHW in one hand has to give up the ability to fire torso and other arm weapons.  For a mech carrying a HHW that requires both hands, that does makes sense.

The reason this makes sense is that ALL HHWs require both hands. One-handed HHWs violate the rules, which is why they don't make much sense within the rules.
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mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #128 on: 09 January 2013, 09:42:40 »
This is a nice idea. 25 tonners and up can carry an iOS NARC, and 40 tonners and up can carry a regular one with a ton of ammo. Sounds like a good way to make an all-3025 force much more effective... O0
Of course there's the reverse: A HHW containing AMS systems and ammo. Or a Laser AMS and heat sinks.

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #129 on: 09 January 2013, 10:23:58 »
Not sure if tying up your arms/torso for just an AMS or two is worth it, but if you really fear missiles, then feel free...
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #130 on: 09 January 2013, 10:39:43 »
Not sure if tying up your arms/torso for just an AMS or two is worth it, but if you really fear missiles, then feel free...

If AMS could fire at missile volleys targeted at others, or shoot down Arrow IV or Sub-Capitol missiles, I can see this working.  House rule though.

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #131 on: 09 January 2013, 12:51:14 »
Not sure if tying up your arms/torso for just an AMS or two is worth it, but if you really fear missiles, then feel free...

A 50 tonner can carry a HHW with 6 AMS, 1t ammo and a ton of armor.  If you are a moderately fast to average speed brawler with a 9-hex (or less) bubble of doom this could come in really handy for those guys that love to spam the LRM 5's.  LRM Carrier enthusiasts wouldn't like it much either for that matter.   >:D

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #132 on: 09 January 2013, 15:47:54 »
A 50 tonner can carry a HHW with 6 AMS, 1t ammo and a ton of armor.  If you are a moderately fast to average speed brawler with a 9-hex (or less) bubble of doom this could come in really handy for those guys that love to spam the LRM 5's.  LRM Carrier enthusiasts wouldn't like it much either for that matter.   >:D
I might drop that to 4 AMS with 2 tons of ammo, but whatever works for you.

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #133 on: 09 January 2013, 15:57:06 »
I might drop that to 4 AMS with 2 tons of ammo, but whatever works for you.

With 4 AMSI would make it 3-4 tons instead depending on how much I want to armor it.  For me, endurance is not a characteristic I am looking for in a HHW.  If I'm still unable to engage the enemy after 2-3 rounds and they are still able to lob LRM salvos at ME then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.   #P

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #134 on: 28 January 2013, 09:05:56 »
Oh, and I just thought of another place: Underwater operations. Equip your units with HHWs that carry Long Range Torpedoes, and you've got something even submarines are going to be wary of.

For example, you remember in TRO3026's Neptune entry? Where a single Neptune took down a lance of Dragons? Imagine instead a lance of Panthers that had been equipped with LRT-5s. Still slow, still going to be subject to hull breaches, but able to inflict damage out to 21 hexes. Granted it takes four Panthers to equal the LRT-20 of the Neptune, but you're still able to respond. Given that the energy weapons lose ~1/3 of their effective range, this could have made all the difference to the DCMS unit.

Edit: I actually specced this out over here.

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #135 on: 28 January 2013, 09:07:07 »
With 4 AMSI would make it 3-4 tons instead depending on how much I want to armor it.  For me, endurance is not a characteristic I am looking for in a HHW.  If I'm still unable to engage the enemy after 2-3 rounds and they are still able to lob LRM salvos at ME then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.   #P
That's a good point. And I imagine you were thinking Hunchback when you said 50 tonner earlier. I approve!

Istal_Devalis

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #136 on: 28 January 2013, 09:59:35 »
Do we have a UMU equivalent of the disposable jump pack yet?

SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #137 on: 29 January 2013, 01:22:54 »
Do we have a UMU equivalent of the disposable jump pack yet?
Not that I am aware of, but it would be a very reasonable house rules, likely it's one of those things they didn't think to include

mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #138 on: 29 January 2013, 08:29:03 »
Do we have a UMU equivalent of the disposable jump pack yet?
Not that I am aware of, but it would be a very reasonable house rules, likely it's one of those things they didn't think to include
IMHO it's more likely that such a device would have very limited appeal. Even UMU's are probably a tough sell except on worlds like Lackland. Disposable jump packs are useful any time you invade a world (dropping 'Mechs).

wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #139 on: 29 January 2013, 11:40:26 »
Not that I am aware of, but it would be a very reasonable house rules, likely it's one of those things they didn't think to include

IMHO it's more likely that such a device would have very limited appeal. Even UMU's are probably a tough sell except on worlds like Lackland. Disposable jump packs are useful any time you invade a world (dropping 'Mechs).

I agree, but I would think a disposable UMU would be more popular than the permanently fixed version.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #140 on: 29 January 2013, 11:42:48 »
Totally.  It would be really neat if UMUs could be mounted in a handheld.

That'd be really useful, and similar to the real world


CloaknDagger

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #141 on: 10 March 2013, 02:38:50 »
On the subject of handhelds:

A properly designed handheld weapon-utilizing mech will always be superior to other mechs in their weight class. Clan Mechs even more so than IS, and similarly, it works up to heavy mechs for clans and mediums for IS. Assaults and IS Heavies just can't cram their weapons into the 6 crits of a torso cockpited head and two legs.

Not only that, but handhelds can punch ABOVE their weight.

For example, using a clan chassis, put 2xERPPCs in the head with use of a torso cockpit. Now sink it to capacity, that being 32 when including movement.

Let's say that after whatever armor and speed and such, you have no more weight or crits.

You still have a good 4-6 tons in your handheld weapon now. That's CLRMs, ammo, and a ton of armor for it. And remember, it can be ANY type of ammo.

Heck, you can do with just one ton 3xMGs and 16 shots of MG ammo for the clans. <- This is how I got my MBT mech to work out.

Now that's not only a good extra bit of firepower, but because of the HH using Vee rules, YOU HAVE NO EXTRA HEAT.

You can fire the dual PPCs AND the LRMs. It's a win-win.

I even made a Mad Cat successor that beats it in every way based on this principle.

On canon mech designs, you're not so fortunate in most cases. Though if you can get the right omni, usually medium or light, you can do the same thing while dealing with the only 1 crit in the head from a regular cockpit.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #142 on: 10 March 2013, 02:55:39 »
I don't know, man.  Torso mounted cockpits come with their own problems, like lack of ejection ability, increased vulnerability to heat, and the fact that the center torso is the place on a mech that's most likely to get shot, as opposed to the head which is the least likely place to get shot.  Plus, relying on handheld weapons like that seriously limits your firing arcs, since you can only fire them in the front arc.

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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #143 on: 10 March 2013, 03:09:37 »
like lack of ejection ability and the fact that the center torso is the place on a mech that's most likely to get shot, as opposed to the head which is the least likely place to get shot.  Plus, relying on handheld weapons like that seriously limits your firing arcs, since you can only fire them in the front arc.
Outside of campaign play I fail to see why this is a problem

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #144 on: 10 March 2013, 05:39:28 »
Lack of ejection ability is only one of the problems associated with Torso-Mounted Cockpits, though.  It's got plenty of other liabilities.

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ColBosch

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #145 on: 10 March 2013, 08:13:19 »
The chance of getting a TAC even under standard rules is a drawback. Not very likely, but it's happened.
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #146 on: 10 March 2013, 15:32:57 »
OK, that makes sense, thanks Colbosch.

Things is but that TAC happens as frequently as a head hit and the chance of hitting the cockpit in the torso is less

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #147 on: 10 March 2013, 16:27:59 »
But unless you use a Compact Gyro or Compact Engine, you're stuck without any ability to pad your CT at all, which means that any crit is going to be bad.

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CloaknDagger

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #148 on: 10 March 2013, 17:49:20 »
There's options to deal with the drawbacks of Torso cockpits, but in general, it's not a big problem. Torso cockpits are balanced without handheld use after all.

As for the heat vulnerability, that's mitigated by the handheld actually, since handhelds mean you only need to worry about the firepower on the mech.