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Author Topic: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?  (Read 2783 times)

Nebfer

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Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« on: 09 January 2013, 19:17:09 »
Was trying to convert B-tech Infantry weapons from their RPG stats to B-tech stats, and I was not getting the stats Tech manual indicates they should have? So I'm wondering if my math is a bit off.

Two shot SRM
Bust rate: 1
Magazine size: 2
Ordnance rating: E

Type E Ordnance Anti Vehicle
8 AP / 12 Damage

Type E Ordnance Anti Personnel
4 AP / 14 Damage

Type E Ordnance HE
6 AP / 12 Damage

The Conversion rules indicate I need to average these three types out...
The formula for the Penetration value is AP / 4
Damage value is Damage x (3.5 + 0.2* + 1) * in this case 0.2 for a single shot / 5
Reload factor is 2 / 3 (two missiles / 3)

So thats 2, 1.5 and 1 respectively for the penetrative value
Damage factor is 56.4 for all three warhead types (correction Anti personnel is 65.8)
Reload factor is 0.666666

To figure out the B-tech damage it's Penetration value x Damage value / 50 x reload value
For Anti armor missiles that's 2 x 56.4 / 50 x .6666 = 1.50399 damage or 1.5 or 1.51 depending on how you round.
HE Warheads is 1.5 x 56.4 / 50 x 0.666 = 1.12789 (1.13)
Anti Personnel 1x 65.8 / 50 x.666 = 0.876456 (0.88)


So I'm left wondering where my math went wrong or how on earth did they get the 0.63 damage value?

Maelwys

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #1 on: 10 January 2013, 09:41:22 »
Where are you getting the formulas from?

Lissette Woo

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #2 on: 10 January 2013, 12:47:00 »
AToW: Companion, pages 169/170
Kommandant Lissette "Warhammer" Woo - 180th Attack Wing "Blue Dragons" - LAAF
Captain Vanessa "Ratatöskr" Berg - Creedy Squirrel Salvage Company - Mercenary Command
Star Captain Scarlette - Vehicular Binary Alpha - 13th Wolf Regulars
Sergeant Major Jaqueline "Jacky" Novakowski - Callisto Squad - Blizzard One - Mercenary Command
Sergeant Kelly Bekker - Blackdale Lancers - Mercenary Command
Staff Sergeant Sandrine Harkon - 92nd Arcturan Force Recon Regiment - LAAF


FedComGirl

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #3 on: 11 January 2013, 16:58:14 »
Did you average out the AP and BP first before figuring out the first damage value?

Maelwys

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #4 on: 12 January 2013, 16:26:19 »
Well, I saw one error with your math, but after reading the rules several times for ordnance weaponry, I have no idea how its supposed to work.

The first bit is that I think you're supposed to average up the damage and the AP BEFORE you do everything (though thinking about it mathematically, I'm not sure there would be a whole lot of difference).

The second issue is your Damage Factor. It should be Damage x (3.5+1+1) not Damage x (3.5+0.2+1). The book is specific about rounding the middle value up to the nearest whole number. On the other hand, that fix isn't going to make your numbers any closer to 0.63.

My second question is..what the heck are you supposed to do with the Inferno value? Does it just come out as a separate value, as shown in the main book? So for instance you'd have 2 two shot SRM values, one done with the average of the AP, HE and AV damage, and another with inferno stats? Sort of like the Recoilless Rifle has? If that's the case, why does TechManual not have an Inferno value?

Okay, lets look at it from my way of doing things.

Penetration Factor = AP/4 = 6/4 = 1.5
Damage Factor = 12.666 (average of 12+12+14) x (3.5+1+1) = 12.666x5.5 = 69.6666
Reload Factor = 2/3 = .66666

So final Value = ((1.5*69.6666)/50)*.6666 = 1.39.

Which again, isn't anywhere close to the 0.63 that the book has. On the other hand, its close to the average of your values, once we factor in the formula correction for the Damage Factor.

Nebfer

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #5 on: 13 January 2013, 17:36:49 »
Well, I saw one error with your math, but after reading the rules several times for ordnance weaponry, I have no idea how its supposed to work.

The first bit is that I think you're supposed to average up the damage and the AP BEFORE you do everything (though thinking about it mathematically, I'm not sure there would be a whole lot of difference).

The second issue is your Damage Factor. It should be Damage x (3.5+1+1) not Damage x (3.5+0.2+1). The book is specific about rounding the middle value up to the nearest whole number. On the other hand, that fix isn't going to make your numbers any closer to 0.63.
Ah I see I missed the round up bit, I thought it was treat "single" shot weapons has having a burst of 1 and divide that by 5...

Quote
My second question is..what the heck are you supposed to do with the Inferno value? Does it just come out as a separate value, as shown in the main book? So for instance you'd have 2 two shot SRM values, one done with the average of the AP, HE and AV damage, and another with inferno stats? Sort of like the Recoilless Rifle has? If that's the case, why does TechManual not have an Inferno value?
I would not even know... Though B-tech has until recently ignored RPG weapons stats (I.e. alternative warheads). Though it seems it's find the value of the Non inferno warhead, as what I tried to do and you did. And for weapons with inferno ammo available, do the math for just that type (the SRM warhead (type E) has a value of 3E/9ACS).

Quote
Okay, lets look at it from my way of doing things.

Penetration Factor = AP/4 = 6/4 = 1.5
Damage Factor = 12.666 (average of 12+12+14) x (3.5+1+1) = 12.666x5.5 = 69.6666
Reload Factor = 2/3 = .66666

So final Value = ((1.5*69.6666)/50)*.6666 = 1.39.

Which again, isn't anywhere close to the 0.63 that the book has. On the other hand, its close to the average of your values, once we factor in the formula correction for the Damage Factor.

I see what I was doing wrong better. When I was doing it I could not figure out how to average out the damage, after all it their was no randomization in the damage dealt...

Still SRMs it seems where given some sort of a shaft when the original tables where made...  Even if you use a .333 value for the final multiplier (vs .6666) you still get .696659, which is still higher than the .63 value...


Lets see

Light SRM....... 0.54 RPG warhead class = E (2 shots) - value is B-tech damage
Standard SRM. 0.63 RPG warhead class = E (2 shots)
Hvy SRM........ 0.41 RPG warhead class = E
LRM.......................... 0.19 RPG warhead class = C
Rocket launcher (LAW). 0.23 RPG warhead class = D
MRM.......................... 0.3 RPG warhead class = D

Recoilless Rifle Hvy ........... 0.34 (non inferno) RPG warhead class = E
Grenade launcher Hvy auto. 1.16   RPG warhead class = D (20 shots / burst 5)

Avg of Vehicle, HE and Personnel warheads
Avg Class C warhead = 6/10.6666
Avg Class D warhead = 6/11.6666
Avg Class E warhead = 6/12.6666

The Light SRM and Standard SRM per the book should have the same values (i.e. 1.39), the Heavy SRM should do 0.696659 (0.7 damage), Why the Light SRM gets two shots for 10kg with a 9kg reload, where as the Hvy is 20kg with a 18kg reload, the Standard is 30kg with a 20kg reload (10kg per missile)... So light SRMs are only 4.5kg?

LRMs
10.666 x 5.5 (3.5+1+1) = 58.6663 x 1.5 / 50 x .3333 = 0.5866 (VS B-techs 0.19)
MRM & Rockets
11.666 x 5.5 =  64.1663 x 1.5 / 50 x .3333 = 0.64166 (VS B-techs 0.3 & 0.23 respectivly)

Recoilless Rifle Hvy
as per Hvy SRMs or 0.7 (VS 0.34 in B-tech)

For the Hvy Auto Grenade launcher
that's 11.666 x 5.5 (3.5 + 1 (5/5) + 1) = 64.1663 x 1.5 / 50 x 1 (20/3 = 6.666, max of 1 allowed though) = 1.92
« Last Edit: 14 January 2013, 15:19:48 by Nebfer »

FedComGirl

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #6 on: 14 January 2013, 08:40:19 »
Still SRMs it seems where given some sort of a shaft when the original tables where made...  Even if you use a .333 value for the final multiplier (vs .6666) you still get .696659, which is still higher than the .63 value...

Considering the fact that there is text that says Infantry SRMs are the same as vehicle SRMs, your statement is correct. And it applies to other weapons as well.

I don't know why that is. I've asked but wasn't answered. I don't even know why the RPGs damages would be higher than the board game's either. Personally, I still use the conversion chart from Combat Equipment. Infantry are deadlier and there's less math.
« Last Edit: 14 January 2013, 08:50:57 by FedComGirl »

boilerman

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #7 on: 14 January 2013, 16:30:53 »
I discussed the standard SRM launcher stat conversion with the developers when Combat Operations first came out, although I cannot for the life of me remember what they said.  I believe I still have the notes from when I was first playing around with the infantry platoon construction rules.  I'll see if I can find them and whether or not that provides some enlightenment.

Ed: sorry, I can't find the info.   :(
« Last Edit: 14 January 2013, 20:24:30 by boilerman »
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boilerman

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #8 on: 15 January 2013, 01:47:15 »
I've spoken to Herb about this, stick with the formulas in AToW Companion and the weapon stats in AToW.  There will be errata to come, not sure when though.
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #9 on: 15 January 2013, 02:07:19 »
To the rules or the equipment in TM?

boilerman

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #10 on: 15 January 2013, 02:09:59 »
The equipment stats in TechManual.
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #11 on: 15 January 2013, 02:22:06 »
That's what I thought, that could lead to eratta to TRO:3085 as well.

Still, I like consistency.

Now, if they do errata TM, maybe they can slot in some of the new weapons from AToWC.

FedComGirl

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #12 on: 15 January 2013, 06:27:56 »
I discussed the standard SRM launcher stat conversion with the developers when Combat Operations first came out, although I cannot for the life of me remember what they said.  I believe I still have the notes from when I was first playing around with the infantry platoon construction rules.  I'll see if I can find them and whether or not that provides some enlightenment.

Ed: sorry, I can't find the info.   :(

I remember Herb told me once that they did less damage because infantry don't have the targeting systems mechs do. Which doesn't make sense. He also seemed surprised when I mentioned other infantry weapons were the same as the Battle Armor versions. I just go with the Combat Operations conversions since I haven't done all the math for the RPG yet. Although I do like the damage in it more.

I've spoken to Herb about this, stick with the formulas in AToW Companion and the weapon stats in AToW.  There will be errata to come, not sure when though.

That's cool. I know there's supposed to be an errata for Disposable Weapons but Herb told me it was for Tactical Operations only.

boilerman

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #13 on: 15 January 2013, 13:16:21 »
As I understand it every ordnance using platoon going all the way back to Total Warfare will require errata.

So let's see if I did all the math right, here are the numbers I come up with.  Note these values are for a single shell or missile, so the standard SRM launcher with 2 missiles would get twice the Class E standard damage value below (1.40).



Ordnance Class   Standard Damage     Inferno Damage

 A                   .19                  -

 B                   .33                 .14

 C                   .59                 .23

 D                   .64                 .32

 E                   .70                 .41

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FedComGirl

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #14 on: 16 January 2013, 04:42:24 »
As I understand it every ordnance using platoon going all the way back to Total Warfare will require errata.

Wowey! That's a lot of infantry.

Quote
So let's see if I did all the math right, here are the numbers I come up with.  Note these values are for a single shell or missile, so the standard SRM launcher with 2 missiles would get twice the Class E standard damage value below (1.40).




Ordnance Class   Standard Damage     Inferno Damage

 A                   .19                  -

 B                   .33                 .14

 C                   .59                 .23

 D                   .64                 .32

 E                   .70                 .41


Ooo cool! Thanks! :) It looks like infantry, and small support vehicles just got a lot deadlier!  >:D

boilerman

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #15 on: 16 January 2013, 15:47:56 »
Yea, conventional infantry just got a whole lot meaner.   O0

Although I think someone needs to check my work.
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Nebfer

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #16 on: 16 January 2013, 18:32:55 »
Yea, conventional infantry just got a whole lot meaner.   O0

Although I think someone needs to check my work.

Well your scores for class C, D & E warheads match what I got in my second run through, though I did not round the results.

IIRC to figure out infantry damage, it's number of weapons times their rated damage + number of support weapons and their damage values... then rounding the resulting damage. Well 20 guys with auto rifles (0.52) is 10.4 damage, and eight Standard SRMs (1.4) is 11.2 so an over all of 21.6 damage rounded to 22, the unit with "current values" would only deal 15.

Though technically speaking for anti armor alone, SRMs should be doing 1.76 damage (via anti armor warheads and not generic used here).

Though it dose help some of the more whimper weapons, it's still a bit odd, when three automatic rifles have more hitting power than a pair of 10kg missiles...

boilerman

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #17 on: 16 January 2013, 19:38:52 »
Yea, I agree, the SRM, and the LRM, in my opinion, should be Anti-Vehicle ordnance, rather than the average of ordnance values. 

When it comes to 3 automatic rifles equaling the firepower of an SRM, well, you have to accept some things when you abstract to simplify game play.  One thing that I think didn't complicate things too much and made game stats a little more plausible was the Hard/Soft Damage idea from the first iteration of the infantry platoon construction rules in Combat Operations.  Shame IMO they discarded that, but there's nothing stopping me from using it in my own games.
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Nebfer

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #18 on: 16 January 2013, 20:25:54 »
Yea, I agree, the SRM, and the LRM, in my opinion, should be Anti-Vehicle ordnance, rather than the average of ordnance values. 

When it comes to 3 automatic rifles equaling the firepower of an SRM, well, you have to accept some things when you abstract to simplify game play.  One thing that I think didn't complicate things too much and made game stats a little more plausible was the Hard/Soft Damage idea from the first iteration of the infantry platoon construction rules in Combat Operations.  Shame IMO they discarded that, but there's nothing stopping me from using it in my own games.

At the lest I could see a few different rounds available
Anti vehicle
Anti personnel
HE (as say Generic values)
Smoke
Illumination
Inferno

For SRM class E Warheads, Anti Armor deals 1.76 damage, HE dose 1.32 and Anti Personnel 1.03...

Though I agree their should be more of a Hard & Soft attack values for infantry weapons for vehicle armor most infantry small arms doing less damage while most support weapons retain their damage values, at lest for they type their effective on... (I.e. auto rifles would do great on infantry but poorly on vehicles, like wise light machine guns would be the same, however support Gauss rifles fair poorly on infantry but great on vehicles... though some DP weapons might also exist).

Ordnance weapons can choose what kind of ammo they use and depending on what ammo they use affects what they are good at, a SRM with an anti armor warhead would be good when facing vehicles not so much when facing massed numbers of infantry (sans Battle armor). Though as a some what limitation only two different ammo types can be carried by the unit so you might want to choose carefully...

HABeas2

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Re: Weapons conversion RPG to B-tech?
« Reply #19 on: 17 January 2013, 11:20:24 »
Hello,

I've spoken to Herb about this, stick with the formulas in AToW Companion and the weapon stats in AToW.  There will be errata to come, not sure when though.

Confirming this. The stats for the ordnance-using weapons in TM were derived from their old MW3rd stats, which were initially planned to undergo no significant changes when we got around to AToW (AToW having not even been started at the time). When, in the course of making the RPG stat conversion between MW3rd and AToW, I opted to tweak most ordnance upward, and modify some support weapons into ordnance-users (the Corean Farshot LRM launcher, for instance), this made a disconnect between the TM stats for such weapons and their conversion. I also may have used an alternate form of averaging the non-incendiary weapon damage back in those days (computing the final values for each type and averaging, rather than averaging the APs and BDs up front).

Either way, the most significant changes when they come out should be to the ordnance-using weapons only (SRMs, Grenade Launchers, Recoilless Rifles, Mortars, and such). The remaining infantry weapons on the should be fine.

Hopefully, that helps.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas