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Author Topic: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network  (Read 1485 times)

ABADDON

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The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« on: 24 March 2013, 11:47:44 »
So a Boosted slave costs more C-Bills and one additional crit as well as two more tons compared to a C³ slave.
What does it get us? Basically the same effect of the "Improved Communications" quirk. Regular ECM does no longer affect the networks functionality.

But, let's think about what you also get for 3 tons and 3 (so admittedly one more than the Boosted slave needs): You might as well ad a regular C³ slave and an Angel ECM. Making use of the ECCM rules, you can actually neutralize up to two regular ECMs or a single ECM while still keeping your own ECM for additional protection OR you neutralize a hostile Angel ECM, which the Boosted system cannot.

So in most gameplay situations that approach is actually absolutely sufficient if not preferable, since you will find you spotter rarely surrounded by more than a single hostile regular or Angel ECM.

If Angel ECM for outfitting all the C³ units is not available in sufficient numbers, it would still suffice to just outfit the spotter with Angel ECM whereas the rest gets Guardian ECM to counter a single hostile ECM on their own or a hostile Angel ECM with combined force.

So the way I see it, the "upgrade" from regular C³ to Boosted C³ is in fact no upgrade at all, especially since it would be a logistic nightmare to update all forces a given house has at its disposal to adapt to the new system.

Or am I overlooking something?

evilauthor

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #1 on: 24 March 2013, 13:11:42 »

Or am I overlooking something?

That very illogic is why these systems remain experimental?

Wait, are Boosted C3 and Angel ECM even being developed by the same people?

ABADDON

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #2 on: 24 March 2013, 13:17:04 »
Well, the Draconis Combine uses both.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #3 on: 24 March 2013, 13:21:14 »
It kind of makes sense in a perverse meta-game way if there were to be a rule-reset in the workings.

evilauthor

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #4 on: 24 March 2013, 15:01:37 »
*Boots up SSW*

C3 Slave: 250,000 C-Bills
C3 Slave, Boosted: 500,000 C-Bills
Angel ECM:  750,000 C-Bills

So...

C3 Slave, Boosted (500k CBills) costs half that of the C3 Slave + Angel ECM combo (1 million C-Bills).

There's your logic right there.

Interestingly, there's a 1.5 million C-Bill difference between the Vanilla Master and the Boosted Master, so you WOULD get C-Bill Savings from a C3 Master + Angel ECM combo. But the C3 Boosted Master is 1 ton lighter and 1 crit smaller than the Master + Angel Combo, so what you're saving in C-Bills is getting made up in tonnage.

OTOH, if you field a mech with double Masters installed, 2 C3 Masters with 1 Angel ECM would be equal to the tonnage and crits of 2 C3 Boosted Masters, but cost far less money wise. And it'd be easier to find places to put 2 C3 Masters and 1 Angel ECM than it would be to find two open spots for 6 crit C3 Boosted Masters.

And one more thing: do ECM Bubbles disrupt C3 links if they're merely blocking line of sight between two mechs linked together when the mechs themselves aren't inside the ECM bubble? I can't recall if that's the case or not. If it is, ECCM isn't going to help keep that link up, but Boosted C3 will.

ABADDON

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #5 on: 24 March 2013, 15:11:35 »
Nay, never read that blocking the LOS would be enough.
btw, you're neglecting the fact that he Angel ECM plus C³ slave is much more powerful than just a Boosted Slave. You gain protection and the ability to disrupt basically everything in terms of EW.
So even though the combination might be overall a little more expensive in terms of C-Bills you gain a lot more tactical power for your outfitted units.

CloaknDagger

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #6 on: 24 March 2013, 15:30:13 »
So a Boosted slave costs more C-Bills and one additional crit as well as two more tons compared to a C³ slave.
What does it get us? Basically the same effect of the "Improved Communications" quirk. Regular ECM does no longer affect the networks functionality.

But, let's think about what you also get for 3 tons and 3 (so admittedly one more than the Boosted slave needs): You might as well ad a regular C³ slave and an Angel ECM. Making use of the ECCM rules, you can actually neutralize up to two regular ECMs or a single ECM while still keeping your own ECM for additional protection OR you neutralize a hostile Angel ECM, which the Boosted system cannot.

So in most gameplay situations that approach is actually absolutely sufficient if not preferable, since you will find you spotter rarely surrounded by more than a single hostile regular or Angel ECM.

If Angel ECM for outfitting all the C³ units is not available in sufficient numbers, it would still suffice to just outfit the spotter with Angel ECM whereas the rest gets Guardian ECM to counter a single hostile ECM on their own or a hostile Angel ECM with combined force.

AECM is very expensive. But let's say that it soon replaces all the Guardian ECM factories. And you even have enough to distribute to everyone.

BC3 can still be stacked with the AECM. And BAP and Bloodhound for that matter.

Hell, AECM + Bloodhound + BC3, and it will take no less than FIVE points of ECM to knockdown your C3 network.


ABADDON

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #7 on: 24 March 2013, 15:45:22 »
Hm, you sure in terms of game mechanics it requires the two ECM points from the Angel to counter a Boosted network?
Because if that were true (which I don't think it is) that would mean that you also could just put two regular ECMs in front of the Boosted C³ unit to counter it.
In the rules it is much more definite in terms of stating, that it's only affected by Angel ECM, but not regular ECM. So it seems like in this case it doesn't matter how many ECM points you have.

Quote
Units use the C3BS system (Master and Slaves) in the same fashion and with the same limitations as a standard C3 network, but experience
no interference from hostile ECM equipment (except for the Angel ECM Suite).

The only thing really helping you against a hostile Angel ECM is a Angel in your own unit or two regular ECMs in that bubble.
But in either case, the Boosted has no effect. It could as well be just a regular C³.
« Last Edit: 24 March 2013, 15:48:34 by ABADDON »

GreekFire

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #8 on: 24 March 2013, 15:52:29 »
Nay, never read that blocking the LOS would be enough.
btw, you're neglecting the fact that he Angel ECM plus C³ slave is much more powerful than just a Boosted Slave. You gain protection and the ability to disrupt basically everything in terms of EW.
So even though the combination might be overall a little more expensive in terms of C-Bills you gain a lot more tactical power for your outfitted units.

Actually, page 134 of total warfare does say that blocking LoS is enough to disrupt a c3 link.
evilauthor does make a good point there.
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ABADDON

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #9 on: 24 March 2013, 15:57:34 »
Actually, page 134 of total warfare does say that blocking LoS is enough to disrupt a c3 link.
evilauthor does make a good point there.

Alright, then Boosted C³ DOES have an actual advantage. I admit to that.

Though it is cheapened quite a bit by also having a 2 point quirk that gives you the same ability.
« Last Edit: 24 March 2013, 16:32:19 by ABADDON »

nckestrel

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #10 on: 24 March 2013, 17:00:04 »
Quirks cheapen everything.  Narrow/Low Profile cheapens Stealth.  Improved Targeting cheapens targeting computers. etc.  Quirks are just plain freebies. 

Boosted C3 doesn't rely on any optional rules (other than allowing boosted C3 in your game in the first place).  ECCM is optional.  Some players may want a protected c3 system without having to add the tracking necessary for ECCM.
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CloaknDagger

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #11 on: 24 March 2013, 17:06:16 »
Quirks cheapen everything.  Narrow/Low Profile cheapens Stealth.  Improved Targeting cheapens targeting computers. etc.  Quirks are just plain freebies. 

They're only free if you let them. There's negative quirks too.

nckestrel

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #12 on: 24 March 2013, 17:40:04 »
They're only free if you let them. There's negative quirks too.

That extra long reload time when you don't use reload times really balances out that improved targeting or narrow profile???
The whole system is "if you let them".  There's no balance at all.
So saying they imbalance one thing is a waste of breath.  They imbalance anything they touch. 
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wundergoat

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #13 on: 24 March 2013, 17:52:19 »
The point is, quirks are basically independent of the cbill/crit slot/tonnage/BV balance mechanisms.  IMO, they primarily exist for flavor purposes and shouldn't be compared to equipment or enter in design decisions.

As others have brought up, all you need for ECM to shut down c3 is one hex in the LOS.  If a hostile ECM carrier is between the c3 spotter and master, it is trivially easy to make a crescent of ECM that breaks the network.

Does anyone know if ECCM counters the effect of the ECM iNARC pod?  My gut says no as the pod doesn't make an ECM field but rather causes the affected unit to be treated as if it were in a hostile field.  I could see it going the other way though.

CloaknDagger

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Re: The (il)logic behind the Boosted C³ network
« Reply #14 on: 24 March 2013, 17:56:39 »
The point is, quirks are basically independent of the cbill/crit slot/tonnage/BV balance mechanisms.  IMO, they primarily exist for flavor purposes and shouldn't be compared to equipment or enter in design decisions.

I don't know, I was using them in my design decision once.

I was trying to make a tank-mech. I cleverly used handheld weapons to make up for the 10% of mass tracks took up.

And I ended up fitting two 2 crit weapons in the head to represent the turret too.

Problem was, a compact gyro and head turret made it really crappy because it made the weapon load anemic.

My solution was just to use the extended torso twist quirk so that the front arc is 360. Problem solved, tank-mech was now perfect.

 

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