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Author Topic: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen  (Read 5030 times)

Akalabeth

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Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« on: 08 March 2011, 05:41:30 »
Question to all roleplayers out there, how do you deal with the issue of clan campaigns and zell briggen? I'm going to be GMing for the first time ever for our largely tactical RPG group and in general, my issue would be this:

Zellbriggen's an interesting idea, and the various levels (4 I believe) given different options for different scenarios, however I would think that each battle being nothing but duel after duel would eventually get pretty damn boring. So in what ways do you keep it interesting? (without completely abandoning zellbriggen)

I have a few ideas of my own, but just thought I'd see what other people were doing.

Thanks!

McSlayer

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #1 on: 08 March 2011, 19:26:06 »
Well I think you are right, just doing battles with Zell is boring. But the art of fighting with Zellbrigen is interesting in how to manipulate it... sadly but true. But whatever you do with Zellbrigen in Megamek you would need to used individual init, otherwise with equal numbers of mechs the side that loses init, loses init for EVERY Dual... Just FYI. Even easier to manipulate zellbrigen with IS forces vs clans.
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Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #2 on: 08 March 2011, 19:50:03 »
Well I think you are right, just doing battles with Zell is boring. But the art of fighting with Zellbrigen is interesting in how to manipulate it... sadly but true. But whatever you do with Zellbrigen in Megamek you would need to used individual init, otherwise with equal numbers of mechs the side that loses init, loses init for EVERY Dual... Just FYI. Even easier to manipulate zellbrigen with IS forces vs clans.

Well we'd be playing tabletop not megamek so individual init is no problem. Though would be more time consuming. We typically move by lance rather than individual unit to speed things up.

Tempus

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #3 on: 08 March 2011, 21:12:50 »
If the players are attacking, What we normally did was have the leader of the players group make a negociation roll to see how well they did during bidding, which determines the cutback and how many mechs he has as a reserve.  it would be of course more fun to actually roleplay out the bidding, but well
 1) the group has to win the bidding, which might not happen if you RP it out that might not happen
 2) you don't want to generally bid a bunch of your players out of the fight.. easier to use the IPD of 'this is what you bid down to' or something along those lines. (and then GM adjusts his forces accordingly)


Also give the players a few rolls to see what they know about chosen battlefield, and allow reconfigs of omni's accordingly

If the players are defending, then the GM can create his own situation as far as what the bid was, what he has for reserve etc.  However defending players should get 'choice of field' so give them a bit of homefield advantage, some terrain that adds sauce for the goose, and the opportunity to equip their mechs to best fight in that situation.  you can determine how much the enemy knows about that battlefield, and configure (or mis-configure) their mechs accordingly.


remember that normally sitations favor the defender, so typically the attacker will have slightly more forces unless they are really good.

Beyond that yes, it starts to be much like a set of parallel duels..  there is however strategy in terms of who you match up with who..   The leader may for example tell a much smaller mech to challenge  a larger foe, with the purpose of mostly tying them up for a while, and perhaps a bit of softening up.  "I do not expect you to win against such a foe.  But keep him busy and inflict as much damage as you can.  Spend yourself wisely warrior. quiaff?)


   Or sometimes the players see an advantage of that sort and go for it themselves..  I can recall using a Stormcrow with ER Large lasers to systematically take apart a much larger foe who did not have weapons to range me, nor movement to close the gap  (although doing that and staying within our field of battle was a challenge.. thank goodness for large amounts of geohex)


I don't think it's boring myself, unless you have warriors who do not understand how to use terrain, tactics, movement etc to their best advantage.  If you have mechs which just stomp forward towards each other till they are at point blank, then yes, it gets boring.   Frankly I can find 'everyone fire at xxxx till it drops' can get boring also.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2011, 21:17:22 by Tempus »
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Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #4 on: 09 March 2011, 05:52:27 »
I don't think it's boring myself, unless you have warriors who do not understand how to use terrain, tactics, movement etc to their best advantage.  If you have mechs which just stomp forward towards each other till they are at point blank, then yes, it gets boring.   Frankly I can find 'everyone fire at xxxx till it drops' can get boring also.

Well in our previous campaigns we've typically done inner sphere and there is manoeuvring, faster units flanking, advancing under cover that sort of thing. Also we typically don't gang bang a mech too mcuh, usually 2-3 units attacking any one unit tops.

That being said the current system we're doing is based more on WCP points. So players undertake a mission, and are given objectives to fulfill for compensation to both grow and supply their forces. So, roleplaying bidding may not necessarily work (especially if you want to play the mission haha). What I was thinking as a basis was simply to give the players the option to bid down their forces by a certain BV % and then have the reward of receiving addition WCP in the end if they win. Though as I understand it a force could bring in forces up to the next lowest bid without loss of honour. So, I may also say for my players if there is for instance two levels of reduction, and they take the heavier one, they could if getting their butt kicked bring in forces up to the second level. But they'd automatically lose any bonus WCP they may have gained even if they win.

As for dueling itself, one on one duels are just less fluid. It would probably be interesting to have them duel once in a while, but not every battle. A balance of maintaining the flavour without sacrificing the fun.

Either way thanks for the input.

Tempus

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #5 on: 09 March 2011, 20:01:48 »
Well if you want to play clans, but not worry about traditional Zell,  you could always play as diamond shark.   They are known for having their own unique version, they don't gang fire, but they also don't stick to one-one one matchups the entire fight.


Otherwise, clan on clan it's pretty much going to be adherence to Zell all the way.  that's just how clans are.  (there was a great essay on the old forums someone did  'what it means to be clan' or something along those lines)



The other option is playing clan vs inner-sphere fights, where the IS breaks zell and then the characters have to respond accordingly.  The issue I've seen there is that if you have a bunch of RoLL-players, then they are just waiting for an excuse, and then instantly they are fighting like normal IS folks, just in clan mechs.   OTOH if you have RoLE-players, it can be a lot of fun as each person is going to respond according to their own character's leanings of warden vs crusader, and level of personal honor.   Some guys are frerengie rules lawyers just waiting for an excuse..  some don't think the IS is worth of any honor, and others are going to maintain diehard refusal to gang-fire and adherence to Zell to the extent they will want a trial of grievance for anyone that fires on 'their' target.


(we had one guy that did this so often he created a 'CoE Kit'  nailgun, prescribed diameter of cord, and spray marker..    say the word and about 15 seconds later there's a perfect circle on the ground with him in the middle waving 'bring it' )
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Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #6 on: 09 March 2011, 20:09:56 »
Well, the intent was to play Fire Mandrill. And from the fluff I've gotten the impression that inter-kindraa fights tend to be pretty bloody and not very clan-like. And the specific kindraa, Kline is said to not rigidly adhere to zellbriggen against other kindraa and the clans. So, fluff wise alone there may be some wiggle room as to how they interact.

I would also assume that the dark caste would not get zellbriggen.

Rationalinsanity

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #7 on: 10 March 2011, 15:23:13 »
Dark Caste don't get Zellbriggen. They aren't even considered human beings.

ATN082268

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #8 on: 10 March 2011, 20:30:30 »
Question to all roleplayers out there, how do you deal with the issue of clan campaigns and zell briggen? I'm going to be GMing for the first time ever for our largely tactical RPG group and in general, my issue would be this:

Zellbriggen's an interesting idea, and the various levels (4 I believe) given different options for different scenarios, however I would think that each battle being nothing but duel after duel would eventually get pretty damn boring. So in what ways do you keep it interesting? (without completely abandoning zellbriggen)

I have a few ideas of my own, but just thought I'd see what other people were doing.

Thanks!

1.  The bidding itself can provide a lot of excitement, especially when it goes below the cutdown.

2.  The honor levels can be altered periodically to make it more interesting. Also, Zellbiggen doesn't apply to everybody and every unit type.

3.   Trial for promotions and grievances can make some vicious scenarios. Just because both people in a trial are Mechwarriors, doesn't mean the trial will be fought by 'Mech combat.

  Just a few thoughts. I may have more :)

-Andrew

Tslammer

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #9 on: 17 March 2011, 14:17:35 »
Role playing the bidding is a hard mechanic to work with. We played a clan group for several years real time covering 3048-3062 in game time. This was a hard thing to learn how to do well. The best method was the GM making force adjustments behind the scene based on the rolls. On a few occasions to keep things fresh we did role play the bidding.

Depending on the clan and their internal honor and innerworkings will dictate the fighting style. What you have described sounds like people who want to play IS tactics with Clan gear. What fluff do I need for that. If I am reading that wrong my bad. Part of the fun of playing clan is not the tech but trying to fight as they are described and not being Lawful Stupid about it.

I think a lot of players see the clan as the wooden bad guys. I have always looked at the tactics and the why. While a lot of combat is solo duels sometimes with lax rules of engagement that sometimes require some out of mech skills to defend your actions or to resolve a matter of honor if someone infringed on yours.

Most do not look at the dynamic of allocation foes. Sometimes I would bid my larger mech against two foes more if they were IS. As Tempus said some times challenging your Black Hawk against the executioner is the tactical thing to do.
Fights with other clans are interesting. Some have looser rules about back shots and physical attaccks.
Goliath Scorpion are very tactical fighters after all they trained the Dragoons.
Diamond Shark switch targets a lot with a rotating engagment type of fight which throws other clans off their game. They are careful to not engage more than one foe at a time but rotate to another target frequently.
Hell Horse use vehicles and the zell rules about vehicles are very open.
Ghost Bear has a lot of Elementals so your likely to see more with GB.





Tslammer

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #10 on: 17 March 2011, 14:27:03 »
A few things I forgot you can also have inter clan trials. One thing we did on occasion was to have warriors retake part of their trial. Fighting another player running an NPC mech in a one on one duel to see if the warrior is fit to continue and test up or down. This was done once per in game year for warriors who did not have an outstanding codex. We only had one player test down and one test up by defeating two.

Another thing that kept the flavor and added a change of pace was to see if anyone was sponsored for a Blood name. A Die roll of 11-12 meant you had a sponsor. If not we played the grand melee for any warriors who had that bloodname. Of the 5-6 times we did this only two players made it all the way to their bloodname.

I really miss that campaign.


Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #11 on: 17 March 2011, 14:30:32 »
Role playing the bidding is a hard mechanic to work with. We played a clan group for several years real time covering 3048-3062 in game time. This was a hard thing to learn how to do well. The best method was the GM making force adjustments behind the scene based on the rolls. On a few occasions to keep things fresh we did role play the bidding.

Depending on the clan and their internal honor and innerworkings will dictate the fighting style. What you have described sounds like people who want to play IS tactics with Clan gear. What fluff do I need for that. If I am reading that wrong my bad. Part of the fun of playing clan is not the tech but trying to fight as they are described and not being Lawful Stupid about it.

Well the campaign is in Clan Fire Mandrill who aren't known for rigidly following Zellbriggen out of a necessity to survive.

I do want to use Zellbriggen in the battles, but I think using it all the time would become boring. I introduced it into a sibko training op last time, but personally as the GM I found it pretty hard to keep track of who was battling who and in the end the battle itself was a lot less dynamic than a team fight.

I don't however just want it to be IS warriors with clan toys. But I don't want it to be duel after duel either. So, needs to be a happy medium somewhere.

Paul

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #12 on: 17 March 2011, 15:04:24 »
Beyond exposing them to numerous Clans, front and second line, another way to mix things up is to encourage underbidding and challenging multiple enemies. IE, challenging two or 3 Mechs (light/medium) with a Timberwolf. Or have the reverse happen to them; excellent Clan pilot challenges 2 or 3 players.

Another thing may be to encourage players to bid away weapons to get a shot at a duel. IE, bidding only your LRM-20s on a TWolf Prime in a duel against, let's say, an Adder.

Beyond that, it can be a bit tricky to encourage teamwork. One way that fits in to canon can be to have a part of your force confront a must larger chunk, say 3 Mechs on 10. Obviously, they'll loose, but the other 12 Mechs can be off challenging the remaining 5 enemies elsewhere.


It does get a bit tricky after that point. Canon often hints at Clans fighting in ways and using tactics that strongly suggest zellbrigen would make it impossible to use. But there's not a lot of solid material there to explain that, so the following can only be seen as a house rule:
Zellbrigen can work on the unit level. IE, Stars within a Trinary oppose each other.
Star A, B and C face Star X, Y and Z.
A challenges X. Now B and C can't help A anymore. But the 5 Mechs within Star A can engage with greater freedom, and combine firepower, flank, Etc.
If that works for you, you could elect to roll that all the way up to Cluster level, where a whole Cluster challenges another.

In such an environment, the personal duel would still be considered the epitome of honor, but first and foremost to all the Clans, all the time is VICTORY. Even at the expense of personal honor. Those two concepts are constantly in an unequal balance with each other, with individuals, or individual Clans looking differently at the same situation.

That last paragraph is true regardless, IMO.
Hence the need for Trials of Grievance, I suppose.

But the notion of formation-based zell, while possibly implied by canon, isn't specifically described anywhere.
It's just always bothered me: if Zell's the rule of the day, why bother with unit formations at all? Organization above the Trinary level seems a waste of paper. At some point you just have Pile Of Mechs 1 fighting Pile Of Mechs 2.
(Or Elementals, or Fighters, whatever)

Paul

Tslammer

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #13 on: 17 March 2011, 18:37:09 »
In our game its not a duel unless individual challenges are issued and excepted. Then no one will interupt it. Depending on the foe and ECM levels sometimes challenges were unofficially accepted by fire. As Paul mentions maybe you want to lock up their uber warrior or unit with a Challenge while the rest mop up.

In challenge fights each player needs to record which mech they are fighting. If the GM asks the players should be able to tell you who you were fighting. Some of our GM's write it down so they know the Timber Wolf is fighting the Warhammer etc. We use plastic sheet protectors and visavi pens so notes are easy to make and clean up later.

Since it sounds like your clan on clan or inter clan you will not have to deal with the IS tactic's vs zell and exploiting it.

People intentionally turn the fight into a grand melee for a tactical reason. The Pryde story starts that way in his trial of position or Natasha's retrial. Sometimes Zell is not extended which given how the Madrills fight each other they might not extend full honor to their fellow clansmen deemed less than honarable.  The other side of this is Clan weapons make very short work of opposing mechs with combined fire. Especially if the other side is doing it as well. Then you have players out of the fight bored and waiting for it to get over. Same thing happens in a duel when someone looses a head or lucky and drops their foe early. In the last they should be able to move about to get a good position on the next foe.

Given my years of Clan play I was never bored dueling. Not even if I was in a Pouncer.

I would strongly suggest using other clans to break up the normal gaming routine and to introduce new tactic's the players are not used to like the Diamond Shark rotating targets.

Sometimes you need to help a foolish fellow warrior who is either taking to long to defeat a foe or taking a beating that could be avoided. As Tempus mentioned you might then have to deal with the warriors wounded honor and Circle of Equals kit. Paul also mentions because you won in doing so the warrior lived to issue the challenge.

Welcome to the Clans.




Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #14 on: 21 March 2011, 20:18:30 »
Another problem I find is how does one have anything other than one off battles in clan vs clan conflict during peace time? I suppose one could make the bidding a larger process and with multiple stages to the battle. But otherwise it seems like you go to a place, declare what you want, bid, fight, then win or lose go home.

Except vs the bandits of course.
Just wondering what I can do during peace time to have mini campaigns here and there that fit into the larger frame work. Since campaigns by their nature are the opposite of clan peace time philosophy as I understand it.

Tempus

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #15 on: 21 March 2011, 21:16:10 »
I'm not sure what more you are wanting here.  The fact is that based on the cannon culture of the clans, it's going to be mostly 1:1 'honorable combat'  when it's clan vs clan.  There are a few noted exceptions (given above already) but that's how it is.  We'e already discussed some ways in which that can get interesting due to numbers on each side, bold warriors in smaller mechs challenging larger foes, etc.


The big motivator for most clan warrior characters is to win a bloodname.  Generally speaking you can't dishonor yourself on a regular basis (by starting grand melee's, breaking zell, etc) and expect to be nominated to the bloodname tourneys.


Honestly, if you consider a bunch of parallel one on one fights to be boring, I'd say don't try to RP the clans.  If your players just want access to clan tech, without the restrictions of fighting like honorable clan warriors, then RP some IS forces during the 3055+ era where they start to get their hands on and mount some clan tech on IS mechs (especially during bird-dog/bulldog).


IMHO the challenge is to RP the warrior culture mindset.   The better weapons and equipment are offset by a fighting style that somewhat limits their effectiveness (compared to those surat IS dogs who will gang up on and attack a single opponent with multiple foes.  To a clanner, that is not fighting, that is just a step short of a mugging by a gang in a dark alley.) 


I've got a bit written by another poster (deathshadow) about what it means to be clan, Which I think speaks to this.  But I'm not going to repost it without getting his permission first.    Given it was first posted like 7 years ago, I'm not sure if it's even in the current forum archive.
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Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #16 on: 21 March 2011, 21:31:43 »
The topic in question is on the current boards but locked. You'd get in crap for reposting it here with or without permission.


The problem is, a lot of clan designs and fiction do not suggest a 1 on 1 fighting style. Some designs look to be obvious support mechs, or are even stated in TRO entries to support other designs on the field. Also since only Mechs follow zellbriggen, one on one can be fairly uncommon on the battlefield. Also when you have clans like Ice Hellion that define zellbriggen as a star of light mechs vs one mech I'm sure it would rub other clans the wrong way.

When it comes to specific clans, one entry on the Fire Mandrills suggests their need to move away from open warfare towards the minimalistic one on one trials amongst themselves. What is open warfare? 30 mechs dueling 30 other mechs? Or is it just that, open warfare like the inner sphere.

As for the warriors themselves? What do they do, sit on their hands for 2 years and then do one trial of possession with five mechs out of a cluster?

There has to be SOME regular combat. How else are people noticed? How do people keep their skills sharp? Combat exercises ad infinitum? Do you get honor for fake combat? If everyone's just doing garrison duty, how does one determine who has the right for a blood name and who does not? It's a little contradictory when the society with the best warriors doesn't even fight except in the most minimalistic ways. A trial of possession has to be worth the prize, no point winning supplies if you lose more valuable mechs in the process. So how often are such trials under taken?

Basically I'm just trying to rectify zellbriggen with the fiction. Zellbriggen suggests they fight one way, the fiction suggests they fight another. And by fiction I mean source books, novels, etcetera. Like for example, what's the point of being a star commander? You control 4 other mechs? But in combat you never actually command them. If clan warriors are all about personal honour, why would they listen to someone else? Someone says "hey you, go fight that guy". Is he commanding you in your best interests? And if not why listen to him?

Tempus

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #17 on: 21 March 2011, 22:03:52 »
Ah yes I see it now, under the clan chatterweb section.   and as could have been predicted the discussion got rather heated. and I can see why the locked the thread.


No interest in repeating that debate here.  I'll simply say that those reading this thread who have NOT read that essay might want to go read it, and the thread that follows.  It's if nothing else a good take on how various folks here view what clan attitudes are etc,  and given all the strong opinions, I think you can see the potential for RP there..


To ME, that is the attraction of playing clans in an RP scenario..  it's the challenge of trying to embrace that mindset and bring it out in your character.. not the cool toys.


(edit: complete re-write, didn't see it was already reposted.  That it happened literally within hours of the boards going back up says something about how some regard that particular essay)
« Last Edit: 21 March 2011, 22:22:35 by Tempus »
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Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #18 on: 21 March 2011, 22:11:03 »
As I said, it's already been reposted:

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2244.0.html

The thread was also locked, with a warning by moderators to not attempt to re-open the discussion.

Tempus

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #19 on: 21 March 2011, 22:49:00 »
I think we are pretty close here to just repeating what's already been said.


lots of folks have made their opinions known, especially Paul had I thought some great input.


If you don't want to accept that, then don't.  But don't argue with us to tell us why we are wrong, that's not going to go anywhere.


Play your game the way you want, it's not like any of us are involved in it, so what we think hardly matters.


a few  final comments and I'm done unless this goes in a new direction:


"What is open warfare?"


 both sides throwing maximum available force at each other ad infinitum.  See trench warfare in WW1, or most especially the 'eastern front'  battle between Germany and Russia in WW2.




 "Combat exercises ad infinitum? Do you get honor for fake combat?"


it's not fake.  Clans train with live weapons, that's been established multiple times.  people die in training all the time in the clans.   yet another source for the average 20% turnover per year in their military forces.


"[/size] A trial of possession has to be worth the prize, no point winning supplies if you lose more valuable mechs in the process. So how often are such trials under taken?"
How often?  I'd expect frequently.  There's also no point in defending with a force more valuable than what's being challenged for..    If the attacker really wants something, and you say you'll defend with a force worth twice as much to you as what you are defending, then they may end up taking it from you and you have to answer to why you expended so much resources trying to defend what was being challenged for. 


The way I view it is that in 'conventional' warfare we are used to, you tried to minimize your losses by having overwhelming force, and hoping you can roll over the defense.   any of us can likely point to many examples where that did not work.


In 'conventional' battletech fights the IS forces would generally muster a large force, but only fight till the point that 'defeat' was obvious, and then yeild to save their resources.  Hence mechs that start to approach CLG shutting down or backing out of the fight.  e.g. 'rules of warefare'  trying to limit 'total war'


Clans flip that around 180 degrees, seeking to minimize the forces involved.  Defending with the minimum the feel is warranted according to what is being challenged for, and attacking with the miniumum they think will defeat that defense.  but once those forces are comitted, they fight without backing down.   (effectively, the backing down was done first, by bidding away forces).


two different approaches to 'non- total warefare'


"[/size] "hey you, go fight that guy". Is he commanding you in your best interests? And if not why listen to him?"


Because might makes right, and he's already demonstrated (perhaps multiple times) that he has the right to lead by kicking your sorry @#$%^ in the circle of equals.   and I'll point out that IMHO "is he commanding you in your best interests" is a very un-warrior like thought..     I might buy 'is he using our forces in the best way to defeat this foe?' as a concern, but not self interest, that's IMHO not clan.



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Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #20 on: 22 March 2011, 01:04:12 »
If you don't want to accept that, then don't.  But don't argue with us to tell us why we are wrong, that's not going to go anywhere.

I'm not telling you that you're wrong, I'm having a discussion. To be honest I missed that bit Paul mentioned about Stars challenging Stars. Basically all that's saying is that it can be an open battle if you want. All I'm trying to do is to make sense of the rules as it pertains to the established fiction.

Quote
Quote
"Combat exercises ad infinitum? Do you get honor for fake combat?"

it's not fake.  Clans train with live weapons, that's been established multiple times.  people die in training all the time in the clans.   yet another source for the average 20% turnover per year in their military forces.

Well the point is. If a person is in a second-line garrison cluster, how much combat will they see? Do they conduct live fire training exercises against one another, and subsequently wear down their forces? Or do just sit there? In Bloodname, Aidan only saw action when someone else attacked and he was subsequently able to prove his worth.

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Because might makes right, and he's already demonstrated (perhaps multiple times) that he has the right to lead by kicking your sorry @#$%^ in the circle of equals.   and I'll point out that IMHO "is he commanding you in your best interests" is a very un-warrior like thought..     I might buy 'is he using our forces in the best way to defeat this foe?' as a concern, but not self interest, that's IMHO not clan.

Eh? Not clan? Clans are all about self-interest. Warriors want bloodnames. They want to rise through the ranks to become Khan. They want to be remembered. They fight duels for personal glory. The clans fight separately to see who will reach terra. Maybe I'm wrong but to me clan warriors are as selfish as they come.

It's like when Aidan was testing for position, he initiated a grand melee and Marthe shot him in the back. She didn't care about him she cared about herself.

Paul

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #21 on: 22 March 2011, 09:12:46 »
If a person is in a second-line garrison cluster, how much combat will they see? Do they conduct live fire training exercises against one another, and subsequently wear down their forces?

Solahma units are decidedly boring.
Second line can be interesting. They would have live-fire exercises, as well as internal Trials on occasion. ToG's are kind of a big deal, but they happen. Likewise ToP's over a recently deceased officer's spot happen.
The wearing down their units seems to barely bother the Clan. If they didn't engage in Trials of Bloodright and live-fire for most every situation, I can easily see them having twice as many warmachines. (And prob more pilots as well). Second line units might have to be a bit concerned; their ability to get replacement gear is often reduced.
Note that none of this prevents unaugmented Trials.


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Maybe I'm wrong but to me clan warriors are as selfish as they come.

I wonder why you're about to run a Clan campaign when you have such a low opinion about them. Seems like you're setting yourself up for aggravation no matter what's posted here.


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She didn't care about him she cared about herself.

You'll note that Clanners tend to have a different mindset while in more general combat. ToB's and ToPosition's are really selfish events. And you have to enter those with the premise that you're not just worth for the rank/Bloodname, you're totally entitled to it, and the Clan as a whole will benefit when you attain it. Still mostly a selfish act, but a typical Clanner will always consider the "Clan" as the abstract concept that he's benefitting through his actions. The truly, utterly selfish are rather rare, but even they would be justifying their actions along those lines.
Meanwhile, the majority of Clan Warriors when engaged in a Trial of Possession wouldn't be sacrificing lesser Warriors just to improve their chance at Rank or Bloodname. They'd do it because it makes tactical sense to them. Not wasting a Clan's resources includes not wasting it's Warriors frivolously.
Exception of course being Solahma, they're highly expendable cannon fodder. In fact, making sure they die is generally considered both beneficial by the Clan as a whole, and the Solahma as well.

Paul

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #22 on: 22 March 2011, 11:58:23 »
I would agree with Paul it seems your going to have issues with running clan if you do not understand them. But then again you can run it anyway you see fit. So far to me we all seem to be giving the same advice. As evidenced in the locked thread a lot of people do not or cannot understand the Clans.

Once again you can run it however you like we have given the best advice we can use it as you like. The clans are about constant limited warfare. AKA the size limit is roughly the size of your player base.

Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #23 on: 22 March 2011, 13:43:07 »
I wonder why you're about to run a Clan campaign when you have such a low opinion about them. Seems like you're setting yourself up for aggravation no matter what's posted here.

Please don't confuse an observation for an opinion or a judgement. If I didn't have an interest in the clans I wouldn't be running a campaign whatsoever.

It's just that if a clan warrior's ultimate goal is to achieve a bloodname and be added to the genetic pool then are not their motivations largely self-serving? It seems to me that their personal honour and glory are second only to the betterment of the clan, and sometimes not even then. Furthermore most of the trueborns seem to place little emphasis on loyalty in personal relationships, coupling with whomever to satisfy their biological needs and not much else.

To me they seem like a mix of the Kingons and the Jem'Hadar. Like the Jem'Hadar they're genetically bred for war and exist only to fight. And like the Klingons personal glory dominates their lives and they follow their superiors only so long as that person is competent. But even then they're looking for a promotion at every opportunity.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2011, 13:48:29 by Akalabeth »

Akalabeth

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #24 on: 22 March 2011, 13:50:00 »
Either way thanks guys. You input should give me some ideas for the campaign and how to go out about it.

Tempus

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #25 on: 22 March 2011, 14:25:05 »
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Eh? Not clan? Clans are all about self-interest. Warriors want bloodnames. They want to rise through the ranks to become Khan. They want to be remembered. They fight duels for personal glory. The clans fight separately to see who will reach terra. Maybe I'm wrong but to me clan warriors are as selfish as they come.


True to an extent..  The thing you are missing is that the only way you GET a bloodname is by  fulfilling your DUTY as a warrior and doing so in an Honorable way..    If you Dishonor yourself (such as disobeying orders, not following chain of command, surrendering in battle) then you can pretty much kiss chances of a bloodname away..   (exception is going via grand melee, and winning a spot that way  (might makes right again)


So Yeah I really really want a bloodname, but to WIN one I have to first be a "Warrior" and that gets back to (IMHO anyway) a lot of what was expressed in 'what it means to be clan'   it's very very much like Bushido..  there is a strict MILITARY code of honor that is a huge part of this.  Following orders is a huge part of that code.    You can have a ToG after if you don't like what you were ordered to do, but in the meantime, in battle, you follow orders.  If you think YOU should be leader, then Trial of Position, but AFTER combat is over.   (it's hard to imagine it being any other way in a society with such a militaristic base as the Clans has..  the Chain Of Command would be nearly sacred when in battle.)
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Paul

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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #26 on: 22 March 2011, 14:31:46 »
Please don't confuse an observation for an opinion or a judgement. If I didn't have an interest in the clans I wouldn't be running a campaign whatsoever.

Cool, thanks for clearing up my confusion.


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It's just that if a clan warrior's ultimate goal is to achieve a bloodname and be added to the genetic pool then are not their motivations largely self-serving? It seems to me that their personal honour and glory are second only to the betterment of the clan, and sometimes not even then.

That's true for every nationality. Some people may join the DCMS because they honestly want to defend the Combine from foreign aggression. They may be willing to sacrifice themselves completely for that goal. Others might join the DCMS for more self serving reasons, or once in, become more focused on #1, and less on the DC.

The same is true for the Clans, where some conflate their own relevance to such a degree that their personal success becomes = to the success of the Clans. A Clanner will be swift to absorb such notions regardless, but some approach it as a general self-sacrifice kind of patriotism, others as a self-centered narcissism.

There are two things I think you underestimate, or don't assign adequate weight on. That may be a misconception on my part, in which case the following is redundant:

The Clan Warrior Caste education system indoctrinates a decidedly low self-image, especially when compared to most Inner Sphere (or modern) nations. People are a cog in a machine. Starting with that as a base premise about your role in the universe, you're not likely to frame your goals along the lines of: I want to be the big dog, because it's good to be king.
That's true for all Castes, more so for the Warriors, who are taught they're the first and foremost of all Castes. Especially MechWarriors and Aerospace pilots are prone to start justifying their actions as if their personal advancement is for the Greater Good for their Clan.  But that's a frame of reference, the Clan as an abstract entity is far more prominent among most Clanners than a nation is for most Spheriods. That's evidenced particularly by their willingness to accept Bondage; their loyalty link to their prior Clan is almost completely cut, and they're ready to be a cog in the new machine.


The second thing is that advancement, ultimately, is achieved almost exclusively through combat prowess. While politics are far from dead, and while it seems a safe bet that politics are involved not just in attaining, but maintaining a rank of Star Colonel or above, the bottom line is that it's rarely enough to arrange for your promotion by ensuring your superior meets an untimely end, or is implicated in some kind of scandal. You have to be able to fight to take the rank, and then fight to *keep* it. While some weasels might get far, ultimately, social generals are almost impossible unless they're also skilled at least during the initial part of their career. An example Elias Chrichel, (I think I goofed the spelling) who was a feeble Warrior as a Khan, but is noted for being quite competent and brilliant in his earlier years.

Your descriptions of a Clanner's mindset don't seem to take that in to account. The truly self-serving are not likely to be numerous. Not because Clanners are better people, but because the balancing act is different.


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Furthermore most of the trueborns seem to place little emphasis on loyalty in personal relationships, coupling with whomever to satisfy their biological needs and not much else.

I disagree. Friendships and personal loyalty have been shown as being evident numerous times in fiction and canon.


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To me they seem like a mix of the Kingons and the Jem'Hadar. Like the Jem'Hadar they're genetically bred for war and exist only to fight. And like the Klingons personal glory dominates their lives and they follow their superiors only so long as that person is competent. But even then they're looking for a promotion at every opportunity.

I don't think that's inaccurate per se, though the Klingons are a bit rougher and less disciplined in comparison IMO.
But it's relevant to me to take my prior remarks in to consideration. If just as a frame in which a truly selfish Clanner has to justify his own actions to himself and his peers. 
"Well, my superior officer was clearly an incompetent failure, so I saw no benefit to the Clan to expend additional resources in extracting him from his predicament. If he had fought harder, he would have prevailed. I stand ready to defend my new rank to any who claim to be my better."

Paul


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Re: Clan Homeworld Campaigns and Zellbriggen
« Reply #27 on: 22 March 2011, 20:25:38 »

Paul,


he'd better stand ready, especially if he refused orders causing some challenge he was bid into to be lost.  But it's a great justification, and to call his bluff basically means engaging him in a trial, so unless someone more skilled than him takes umbrage, he's likely to get away with it.

Furthermore most of the trueborns seem to place little emphasis on loyalty in personal relationships, coupling with whomever to satisfy their biological needs and not much else.


Don't equate monogamy with loyalty especially outside the bonds of any kind of formal commitment such as a marriage.    ESPECIALLY in trueborn society where 'sleeping around' has no issues such as children born out of wedlock, or where there's not even a need for a 'strong pair relationship' to raise a child.


If we're talking about a society where there is no need to be monogamous, no benefit from that behavior in terms of a 'strong nuclear family', then you've got no real reason to not be poly-amorous, and treat sex as just another form of recreation.    There's no need to have pairbond relationships, and while some might choose to do that, it's not the norm, nor is there any need or benefit for it being the norm.  Thus, polygamous behavior is in no way disloyal to anyone. 


Furthermore the forming of any relationships that appear to be 'monogamous' could well carry a stigma of 'acting like a freebirth'.  It could even be seen as detracting from your devotion to the clans and fulfilling your duty as a warrior. 
« Last Edit: 22 March 2011, 20:29:55 by Tempus »
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