"Paramilitary" Cluster Upgrades?

[Wolflord]

The following points occurred to me

1) there would have been a good quantity of salvage available on the battlefields of the clan invasion
2) it is often supposed that a clan has some number of Paramilitary//Reserve/Garrison forces beyond those that appear in the Field Manuals - although afaik they are only briefly mentioned on a few occasions eg WoK
3) the clans have a waste not philosophy
4) the falcons used salvaged and refurbished mechs in the Twycross scenario pack

Assuming the invading clans have the manpower available and the will to use the salvage how might they make use of it?

I've put the answers to the two questions that occur to me as two pairs of options above

Two votes each, one for option 1 or 2 and the other for option 3 or 4.

Feel free to share thoughts behind your votes and/or suggest other options you feel are required.

[Scrollreader]

Um.  I didn't pick one, because while they did make many (C) variants, which are basically straight weapon swaps for clan weapons (and often leave the mech underweight) those are called out as being for Solahma.  They are ofen, if not always equipped with things like Streak and Pulse, to make up for how terrible the level of warrior they are given to is.  And paramilitary/watch/police forces probably don't even rate 2nd Line, IS equipment.  I mean, that's what /vehicles/ are for, Quiaff?

[Wolflord]

That's why getting mechs would be an upgrade  ;)

[Scrollreader]

... so you are giving non <FAILURES AS> warriors mechs?  Or you need <REAL> warriors to keep your civilians in line?


Edited for clarity, in response to below comments.

[Wolflord]

Unless there has been a retcon when I wasnt looking the paramilitary/watch/military police types are part of the warrior caste ............ Not a highly regarded part to be sure ......... But part of it all the same.

So no I'm not giving non-warriors mechs.

And the types of mechs I'm contemplating include more than Stingers refurbished for crowd control. Hence the option for specialised reinforcements including mechs toting Arrow IV as well as anti infantry units. Alternatively maybe a clan would just want to put an extra few Trinaries of trooper mechs in the garrison pool.

[Scrollreader]

... right.  I just don't understand why your watch or your paramilitary guys would possibly need Arrow IV.  Under any circumstances.  Unless you have local muggers driving battlemechs, you don't need them.  Remember, the Clans are 1) Theoretically anti waste, so they'd, at worst, stockpile them for real warriors, or break them down for parts, and 2) Super class conscious, and not afraid to waste resources to keep things the way they are.  A mech, even a Solahma second line mech like a Hunchback IIC, or an Inner Sphere mech, is a status symbol.  And warrior or not, I don't think they get handed down to people who washed out of their ToP, and needed a second chance just to be riot control.

That being said, I'll stop threadjacking, and let other people chime in.  But my vote, to the Question of "Might the Clans have done this?" is No.  For which there is not a poll option.  In either category.  It may be unintentional, on your part, or you may not actually mean to ask that question, but right now, it reads like a J Jonah Jameson poll on Spiderman "Threat or Menace?  You decide!"

[rebs]

An example from the modern BT battlefield: The Jade Falcons seem to be barely Clan anymore, so many of the compunctions that would have stopped them from doing things like this in the past exist now as political obstacle/relics of a different age. 

Besides, if a warrior is second rate, then they are the perfect ones to be armed with Arrow IV.  Let the warriors with skills have the Jupiters, Warhawks and whatnot.


Not that this is "right".  It's all interpretation.

[Hedgehogey]

Use of artillery is specifically mentioned several times as being reserved for bandit caste hunting. For solahma who are needed for such a duty (for instance by both front and second line galaxies all being needed in 'real' battle), Arrow IV would be perfect, especially if it was salvaged IS equipment that would just go to waste otherwise.

Also weren't the Falcons mentioned to have used artillery on Coventry on dezgra IS foes? I can check, I have Bred For War as an RTF.

[Scrollreader]

I agree Artillery gets used on the Bandit caste.  I don't agree that Watch members drive Nagas.

[Hedgehogey]

The Watch isn't unified. The more liberal clans felt free to use regular Warriors as members of the Watch. The Scorps are mentioned as using Seekers as Watch members (Watchmen? who, indeed, watches them?).

[wellspring]

Unless there has been a retcon when I wasnt looking the paramilitary/watch/military police types are part of the warrior caste ............ Not a highly regarded part to be sure ......... But part of it all the same.

So no I'm not giving non-warriors mechs.

This is correct, and has not been retconned as far as I know. The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky is pretty clear about this. Even most warrior caste members don't end up in the Galaxies. There are separate sub-castes for the Watch (which is an intelligence sub-caste) and the paramilitary police force. Then there are the militia units, theoretically used for defense but never actually fielded until the Smoke Jaguar Annihilation. Presumably, these units saw combat in the Wars of Reaving. All are warrior caste members.

One thing tells me that these units have been used this way? The fact that the Wolves promoted civilians to the warrior caste after the Refusal War. Vlad would have transferred virtually any warrior into his Galaxies prior to taking this desperate step (and not just for ideological reasons; anyone in the warrior caste gets at least rudimentary combat training). Only when that bottom of that barrel was scraped clean would he have resorted to promoting lower caste members. Presumably, these guys would have received front-line arms. So where do you get that equipment?

However, even with a mad flood of IS isorla, transferring that gear on a non-emergency basis to paramilitary police clusters makes little sense, for the simple reason that their entire mission is different from that of the Galaxies. Their role is to investigate crimes (which they do, after a fashion), and to enforce order among the lower castes. They're also more than a little bitter about being the lowest rung on the highest caste; with plenty of authority and very little status among their own, they are often bullies and thugs. Giving them heavy military gear is simply not a good idea. What these guys need are ground cars and VTOLs. If they need an APC, they can call in the local garrison trinary, who welcome the chance to look down on someone.

So, no, I don't think you'd see much of this. Where IIC versions are jury-rigged, you'll find them given to garrison and solahma clusters. The rest will be sold off, possibly to the Sharks, who of course can re-sell them to the IS. I feel like I've written this post before, now that I write this bit.

One side note: solahma clusters might have been upgraded to use up-gunned IS isorla. They tend to use vehicles and conventional infantry for cost reasons, so why not use these ultimate cheap machines? But this apparently didn't happen much and post-Jihad, the window where that would have been likely is over.

Update I almost forgot. All warriors have passed a Trial of Position. Those who don't are relegated to another caste. Freebirths and others who can't find a place in the galaxies end up in the other sub-castes. Presumably those lesser warriors are mostly born into their lesser positions as well. A very few clans offer second trials of position to allow warriors to serve in lesser roles (the vipers, bears, and horses come to mind). Everyone else: one trial, that's it.

[SteveRestless]

The way I would structure my clan would be thusly:

Front Line: The point of the spear, the elite of the elite. Primarily trueborn, but if a freeborn shines SO brightly that they deserve inclusion here, I wouldn't prohibit it. These Galaxies would be staffed by the best and brightest of their sibkos, and they would be my offensive forces, tapped primarily to pursue trials, conquer ground and seek glory. Members would be graduates of their first trial of position only.  Totally Clantech, 100% Omni (unless a warrior opts for a standard battlemech), Primarily Mechs, Fighters and BA. Front-Line forces would prefer and expect Zellbrigen from clan opponents, and would have the option, should a foe prove honorable enough.

Second Line: Different than the term is used in Canon. These would still be offensive forces, and they would be first-pass graduates of their first Trial of Position as well, but perhaps the troops in these galaxies aren't the elite superstars that are shown in the front line forces. They would be used both offensively and defensively, and would have a mix of Omnimechs and Battlemechs, primarily clantech or star league royal designs. Mixed composition of Mechs, Tank and Fighters, with both armored and unarmored infantry. Second Line forces would be expected to adhere to zellbrigen against other clan foes, but would not be obligated to adhere to it against a dishonorable foe.

Third Line: Primarily defensive, These warriors still have the spirit and the heart of a warrior, but perhaps their luck has not been so good, or they failed their first trial of position. Or perhaps they are past their prime, but still wish to fight. These units would be assigned for permanent defense where the clan deems it necessary, often augmented by available second line forces. They would be equipped with a mix of equipment, whatever the clan has available for them, largely Star League era mechs, but also everything on down to succession wars era gear. Administratively, these warriors would be grouped into galaxies, but their deployment would not usually be all in one place. Third Line forces would not be prohibited from adhering to zellbrigen, but they would not be expected to adhere strictly. Their honor is in defending the clan, and against a superior aggressor, dueling may not be pragmatic.

Fourth line: Reserve warriors assigned to other castes where they have aptitude, but who can be called up to augment third line defenses in an emergency. Also incorporating sohlama warriors for their wisdom and experience. Small caches of Succession Wars grade mechs and vehicles would be maintained, and the fourth line would also encompass the paramillitary organizations not covered by the Watch. Tech would primarily be Succession Wars era or Primitive/Adapted combat units. Fourth liners would not be under any obligation to adhere to zellbrigen.

The Watch: intelligence arm of the clan. Recruits whomever it deems fits its necessary criteria.

This structure frees up the best and brightest of the clan to go forth and further enrich the clan through their conquests and feats. I originally thought this up in the context of a clan effort to reestablish the terran hegemony, which would increase the need for warriors across the board. It also gives "failed" warriors a chance to redeem their honor, and prevents the clan from wasting the training that they have been given. the third and fourth line warriors may not be the fearsome Ubermensch legions that the clans are known for, but imagine how much happier a sibko washout could be, knowing that they may still get to serve the clan as a warrior. No equipment, from humble industrial mech mods, and primitives, to the mighty cutting edge Omnimechs would go wasted.

The lesser equipment in the hands of the Third and Fourth line units would be the result of conquest and hand-me-downs. Potentially importing as well, or hand-assembly. I'm not about to suggest that they go and establish production lines for inferior mechs, but what they have available, they should use. Conquest, such as re-establishing the hegemony, would likely produce quite a bit of salvage. And really, if they were building new equipment, they could replenish the first and second line units first, things could be passed down from 1 and 2, down to 3 and 4.

this is really a setup for a "clans at full-tilt war footing" concept though. Producing as much as they can, and brian cacheing what they can't use immediately. No potential warrior goes wasted. I also envision what the concept of Sohlama would entail. You get old enough, and you've either proven your worth and gained your bloodname, or you've managed to neither die nor distinguish yourself, and you either step down to 3rd or 4th line (if you arent there already), take on a sibko training role, or you retire from warrior life and serve the clan by interfacing with the civilian castes, or taking up a lower caste job when you can no longer fight.

[Wotan]

Beside the mentioned example of refitted IS mechs used by the Falcons on Twycross, we know that the Jaguars used IS mechs as garrison on Huntress. A look into the clan TO&E of the FM:U shows that there are some Units not only using clan tech and SL tech. So there are IS techlevel Units around. Are these some hundred years old reserve Units of the SLDF they packed in the Exodus ? Or traded salvage from the Invasion ? ;)

[Istal_Devalis]

Frankly, I have a hard time seeing the 'Paramilitary' subcastes using anything better then light vehicles and maybe battle armor for SWAT units. For the most part, they're Police and should be armed as such. If they're facing anything heavier then small arms fire, they call in actual military units.

[rebs]

The way I would structure my clan would be thusly:

Second Line: Different than the term is used in Canon. These would still be offensive forces, and they would be first-pass graduates of their first Trial of Position as well, but perhaps the troops in these galaxies aren't the elite superstars that are shown in the front line forces. They would be used both offensively and defensively, and would have a mix of Omnimechs and Battlemechs, primarily clantech or star league royal designs. Mixed composition of Mechs, Tank and Fighters, with both armored and unarmored infantry. Second Line forces would be expected to adhere to zellbrigen against other clan foes, but would not be obligated to adhere to it against a dishonorable foe.

I also think this is in-line with the way Coyote Frontline/second line Galaxies were arranged.  Second line forces tended to be older (Grey Coyotes, Ancient Coyotes, etc), but I think also that Trialed and proven warriors who yet remain less proven than other frontline warriors for whatever reason (I figure every Clan has likely had their own Aidan Pryde, though probably not in the same way) were also were mixed in.  See also: victims of politics.

But that's a good arrangement all around for a Clan.       

[SteveRestless]

Yeah, I've been told that its very similar to how things are shaping up in the Imperio as well.

Fundamentally it builds off the existing concepts within the clans, but this is more of a "using the WHOLE buffalo" approach to sibkos/potential warriors. Canoically, if you're lucky your clan might let you retest for a different role, if you're in the right clan (Ghost Bears, for example, letting Bjorn Jorgensson retest for ASF) but for the most part, you fail and you're out. Now, there's some significant merit to this, for all the talk of the breeding program, there's a lot to be said for the sibkos only producing the best and the brightest. I just feel that those who don't pass on the first cut, don't need to go wasted.  It also addresses the need to garrison a large number of planets, freeing up the elite forces to hunt for a challenge, and keep moving.

[wellspring]

Yeah, I've been told that its very similar to how things are shaping up in the Imperio as well.

Fundamentally it builds off the existing concepts within the clans, but this is more of a "using the WHOLE buffalo" approach to sibkos/potential warriors. Canoically, if you're lucky your clan might let you retest for a different role, if you're in the right clan (Ghost Bears, for example, letting Bjorn Jorgensson retest for ASF) but for the most part, you fail and you're out. Now, there's some significant merit to this, for all the talk of the breeding program, there's a lot to be said for the sibkos only producing the best and the brightest. I just feel that those who don't pass on the first cut, don't need to go wasted.  It also addresses the need to garrison a large number of planets, freeing up the elite forces to hunt for a challenge, and keep moving.

The main argument I see for re-testing is either: A) we need the troops (and vehicles, small craft, and conventional infantry are nothing if not manpower intensive), and B) .... well let me get back into B.

There's a whole area in psychometrics and education science called test theory. Basically, your score on a test is X+e, where "X" is your true ability level, and "e" is the effect of random chance-- the error term. So some people pass because they are smart, some pass because they're lucky, and for some it's a combination of the two. For extremely stringent tests, the ones who pass have to be smart and lucky. Which means that lots of qualified people, even potentially more qualified people, don't pass because they had the flu or their pencil broke or their proctor screwed up and called time early-- but since there was absolutely no margin for error even these minor annoyances caused them to fail. After a certain point, and under certain conditions, making a test harder doesn't help you identify the best anymore.

Combat has a huge error term. So that "paradox" of why clans with super-stringent trials (the Steel Vipers come to mind) actually have typical or even slightly lower experience levels in the Field Manuals and performance on the battlefield isn't a paradox at all-- it's an illustration of regression to the mean writ large.

One way to make your test more valid is to have several tests, over which the error term will be averaged out. That second test is very useful in this regard-- just ask Galaxy Commander Aleksandr Jorgensson. ;)

With that said.... Here's a reason not to re-test. If only 1% of trueborn warriors pass their trials of position, and if they make .01% of the clan's population, then nearly 1% of your clan consists of trueborn civilians-- mostly in the upper castes, and likely also given preference for breeding rights and advancement. Depending on the relative fecundity of the trueborn test-downs, first or second-generation descendents of trueborns could bulk this up even further, especially in the upper ranks of the higher castes. A few generations in, most of the upper castes and probably a significant minority of the rest, can trace at least some of their lineage to the "genetic aristocracy". In a society with a major ideological investment in the eugenics program, this is a Big Deal.

It serves an absolutely essential social purpose. They're your bridge between the castes. When Omar Banacek wins glory in a Trial of Possession, I don't just cheer because I'm a Star Adder. I cheer because my mom was a Banacek test-down, and my freeborn father has some Banacek in his family tree as well. Much like college football legacies in the South. For that matter, we often see the embittered test-down and the Society rebellion shows us that there is more than a little resentment among the "might have beens", but there might well be just as many who look back at their glory days in the sibko much like a high school football champ who didn't quite make it into college ball. A smart clan cultivates these feelings, gets the other castes emotionally vested in the success of the warriors. It isn't just the mailed fist.

It's no accident that the Diamond Sharks have a large number of test downs. They sell it to the other clans as being a byproduct of their willingness to take genetic risks, but it's also likely a part of their inter-caste cooperation policy. The tight-knit Steel Vipers might well have stumbled into the same policy (ditto the Blood Spirits, who again had strong cooperation between castes).

Especially in the post-Invasion era, when the IS clans have massive new conquered populations to administer, there is a pressing need to grow that bridge. Which is why the Jade Falcons massacring their clan-descended scientists is so shocking. You've got a warrior elite presiding over a civilian population that sees them as strangers.

Test-downs, while unfortunate for the individual testing down, are still valuable both individually and as a class. So there's an argument to be made for tough Trials of Position and copious numbers of test-downs. Just not the argument that people usually make.

[SteveRestless]

Fair point, that. I think you could address that with some additional hacks to clan society though. There's still going to be test-downs in your sibkos, and if you erode the stigma about intercaste coupling, Especially amongst the 3rd and 4th line ranks (Barely needs eroding in the 4th, since they've got multiple caste roles) that I described, you could end up with the same thing, Trueborn genes infusing the free pool, while also supplying additional warriors  to shore up your gains.

I imagine your elite firstline warriors would remain fairly insular about their coupling, and crossing caste lines would probably be uncommon amongst the second line forces as well, but the thirds and fourths would be much closer to the lower castes in their duties and build bonds with them. and if you have a male warrior siring children with a female lowercaste member, that achieves the same thing. I don't imagine it would be beyond the scientists of the clans to take a pregnant warrior and transfer the embryo to a iron womb instead, thus preventing the pregnancy from interfering with her warrior duties.

It all adds up to some significant reworking of the way things are, but I dont think it would be impossible to implement. I can see such an arrangement being popular with the growing freeminder movement, for example.