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Author Topic: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here  (Read 68061 times)

Kit deSummersville

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #600 on: 19 December 2013, 09:53:13 »
She's in the Axis position in the classic boardgame Axis & Allies.

Well yeah, she just has to take Moscow and it's all over.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #601 on: 19 December 2013, 12:24:01 »
Well yeah, she just has to take Moscow and it's all over.

And if she doesn't, then it's still all over in the other way.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #602 on: 19 December 2013, 22:22:49 »
I don't think becoming IlClan will help Malvina, it won't have any effect on the IS populations she's conquered, and while it any alleviate internal problems in her faction and with other Clans (At least as long as she doesn't try conquer them) do you really think it's likely to curb her appetites?

The only Clan that remotely liked Malvina was Hell's Horses.

Now that the Hell's Horses have left the barn, conquering Earth and becoming ilClan would just be closing the barn door. If anything, Malvina sacking Terra could just mean that Clan Wolf, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Sea Fox, Clan Snow Raven, the Dominion, the Lyran Commonwealth, and the Remnant will join forces and eat her forces alive.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #603 on: 20 December 2013, 01:41:35 »
Is it just me or is Malvina's take on the mongel doctrine rather aggressor in nature.  :-\
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #604 on: 20 December 2013, 07:06:03 »
Is it just me or is Malvina's take on the mongel doctrine rather aggressor in nature.  :-\

That's sort of the point.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #605 on: 20 December 2013, 12:53:04 »
That's sort of the point.

So I'm not the only one who thinks she could be a plant? A chance to see how that philosophy would work so others don't get their hands dirty if it fails?
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #606 on: 20 December 2013, 13:00:39 »
Is it just me or is Malvina's take on the mongel doctrine rather aggressor in nature.  :-\

Wow, that has to be up for the 'understatement of the decade' award.  ;D

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #607 on: 20 December 2013, 13:04:21 »
Wow, that has to be up for the 'understatement of the decade' award.  ;D

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« Last Edit: 20 December 2013, 13:08:02 by Klat »
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #608 on: 20 December 2013, 13:09:15 »
She isn't a plant. Even without the Clan way of raising Sibko's something like Malvina can potentially happen. (Genghis Khan)

With Clan Jade Falcon's rougher falconer's eventually you were going to get a Malvina.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #609 on: 20 December 2013, 13:10:56 »
She isn't a plant. Even without the Clan way of raising Sibko's something like Malvina can potentially happen. (Genghis Khan)

With Clan Jade Falcon's rougher falconer's eventually you were going to get a Malvina.

It doesn't need to be a homeworld conspiracy. We don't need their help. Residents of the Inner Sphere can do bad on their own.

The true puzzle is that given the Clan way of raising in Sibkos why haven't there been more Malvinas.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #610 on: 20 December 2013, 13:18:54 »
The true puzzle is that given the Clan way of raising in Sibkos why haven't there been more Malvinas.

That's my issue; if Malvina is the result of Clan culture and Sibko programs why did such an example take so long to show up? Why haven't there been others? It's all too convenient for me to write off as completely random. I'm beginning to think the LC is being setup as a corridor much like the FRR was; but without ComStar pulling the strings.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #611 on: 20 December 2013, 13:19:52 »
The true puzzle is that given the Clan way of raising in Sibkos why haven't there been more Malvinas.

Considering a lot of the Sibko trainers are really bitter its hard to say.

I'd suggest that the most likely reason is that the ones who make it into the Warrior Caste are the ones who can either build a support mechanism by socializing and building friendships with their peers. Or the rare ones who can develop the mental fortitude to make it without them.

Probably more of the former than the latter. But looking at the success of the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes and Bears. The Nova Cats being the exception. Compared to the survival of Fire Mandrills or Smoke Jaguars. At some point they have to learn to get along.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #612 on: 20 December 2013, 13:29:41 »
Or most Clans realize the danger of such a warrior and have them killed off before they can take their Test of Position.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #613 on: 20 December 2013, 13:32:11 »
That's my issue; if Malvina is the result of Clan culture and Sibko programs why did such an example take so long to show up? Why haven't there been others? It's all too convenient for me to write off as completely random. I'm beginning to think the LC is being setup as a corridor much like the FRR was; but without ComStar pulling the strings.

You seriously think that anyone can tell Malvina what to do?

Malvina, Tassa Kay, Alaric Ward are all successful because they do what all great generals have always done. You take the thing that every other general knows is true and you make it false.

Malvina wins because nothing is sacred to her. She is willing to sacrifice anything. She is willing to sacrifice everything. The one thing you could take away from her that would matter, Cynthy, would just make her crazier and more angry.

So fighting her is a losing proposition because the only way you can stand up to her is to be equally willing to sacrifice everything.

Clan Star Adder would need Wizard Hats to make someone like that, control her and direct her.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #614 on: 20 December 2013, 13:32:49 »
Or most Clans realize the danger of such a warrior and have them killed off before they can take their Test of Position.

Malvina is actually a rare duck. Even for the Sibko program. The 'Honor' brain washing didn't really sink in. The Honor Brainwashing is probably the main catalyst to keep Clan Warriors from being complete psychopaths.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #615 on: 20 December 2013, 13:38:32 »
Didn't Malvina only survive her sibko because of her twin brother? Honestly i wish it was aleks that lived and malvina died. then i'd have a Clan jade falcon i could get behind.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #616 on: 20 December 2013, 13:50:26 »
Didn't Malvina only survive her sibko because of her twin brother? Honestly i wish it was aleks that lived and malvina died. then i'd have a Clan jade falcon i could get behind.

I rather like the Falcons under Malvina, if she had been in charge for REVIVAL the results would've been interesting.

As to the arguments above re; Malvina as a an inevitable but random occurrence/unique snowflake: I apologize as my attempt at posting a subtle and pithy comment seems to have garnered some real ire. However, I refuse to accept easy answers for Malvina. I believe there is something much more complex going on there. I will leave it at that as I think I'm in the minority and have contributed to the derailment of this thread.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #617 on: 20 December 2013, 13:52:35 »
I rather like the Falcons under Malvina, if she had been in charge for REVIVAL the results would've been interesting.

As to the arguments above re; Malvina as a an inevitable but random occurrence/unique snowflake: I apologize as my attempt at posting a subtle and pithy comment seems to have garnered some real ire. However, I refuse to accept easy answers for Malvina. I believe there is something much more complex going on there. I will leave it at that as I think I'm in the minority and have contributed to the derailment of this thread.

Hmm? Sorry if I came off as abrasive. I was simply contesting your post. Feel free to believe what you would like and post about it. That's what the forums are for. Not for me running you off.

Also this is the topic about 3145. So this has a place here.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #618 on: 20 December 2013, 13:59:53 »
Hmm? Sorry if I came off as abrasive. I was simply contesting your post. Feel free to believe what you would like and post about it. That's what the forums are for. Not for me running you off.

Also this is the topic about 3145. So this has a place here.

I'm not run off, just surprised at the response. I was worried that a police hat would show up and tell us to talk shop. Then everyone would look at me like the kid who started the food fight...

As I said above there is something really complex going on with Malvina. However, one point I must concede is that she has followers. This would indicate to me that something about her resonates with others. Maybe there is a Malvina in every Falcon just waiting to get out.

That said, part of my issue is the timing; we're close to the hundredth anniversary of REVIVAL and it all smells like a setup to me.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #619 on: 20 December 2013, 14:23:08 »
I'm not run off, just surprised at the response. I was worried that a police hat would show up and tell us to talk shop. Then everyone would look at me like the kid who started the food fight...

As I said above there is something really complex going on with Malvina. However, one point I must concede is that she has followers. This would indicate to me that something about her resonates with others. Maybe there is a Malvina in every Falcon just waiting to get out.

That said, part of my issue is the timing; we're close to the hundredth anniversary of REVIVAL and it all smells like a setup to me.

Well, one thing about the Clans is that no matter what your other qualities are, so long as you keep winning Trials of Grievance, you're A.O.K.  Might makes right, afterall.   I'll defend her as well a bit... isn't what she's doing no different than what Little Nicky did when he created the Clans in the first place?  I mean honestly, I do view both characters as cut from the same cloth.  She's a truer descendant than anyone bearing the Kerensky bloodname, imho.  She's got the gall to overturn centuries of Clan tradition... Little Nicky overturned centuries of SLDF tradition.  She might as well be his female clone ;)

But, barring comparisons to the Founder and considering her solely as a psychotic megalomaniac.. why haven't the Clans produced more of them?  Well surely they DO.. they're just lower on the spectrum to where they're willing to subject themselves to orders by their superiors.  Or, successfully weeded out by 'accidents' or suicide missions.  It could be possible that there are potential Malvinas manufactured in the crèches all the time... she was simply the first one where the weeding practices failed.

As for having followers.. it's easy to see why.  She broke the stalemate of stagnation and provided opportunities for immortality in those willing to follow her.  That and she doubtlessly kills her critics.  Of course she has a following :)
« Last Edit: 20 December 2013, 14:27:43 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #620 on: 20 December 2013, 15:18:53 »
Yeah. My assumption would be that trainers/scientist caste members are actively looking for mental instability. I suspect it would be able to hide sometimes. But technically they could consider it a genetic mutation and remove it from the sibko. Their careful eugenics program may also help avoid it.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #621 on: 20 December 2013, 15:47:29 »
So I'm not the only one who thinks she could be a plant? A chance to see how that philosophy would work so others don't get their hands dirty if it fails?

that kind of detail is something i would imagine the Snow Ravens pulling, not teh HH's. But that is a awesome possiblity, anyway.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #622 on: 20 December 2013, 15:49:26 »
that kind of detail is something i would imagine the Snow Ravens pulling, not teh HH's. But that is a awesome possiblity, anyway.

Makes sense to me. Don't forget: Even if they are Clan, not being Snow Raven doesn't mean 100% brainless. There's a lot you can do with 10% brainpower and a decent PPC.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #623 on: 20 December 2013, 15:57:30 »
Yeah. My assumption would be that trainers/scientist caste members are actively looking for mental instability. I suspect it would be able to hide sometimes. But technically they could consider it a genetic mutation and remove it from the sibko. Their careful eugenics program may also help avoid it.

Any amount of prevention for mental instability on the nature side of the equation is going to be at least offset by how they nurture in Sibkos.  I'd opine that it's more-than-offset.

Someone who can win every Trial of Grievance or Refusal (a paragon of martial virtue) isn't supposed to happen without also being upstanding in every moral way.  Obviously there's no real tie between the two; it's one of the quirks of the Clans that they think there is.  Someone who can insist on whatever she wants (and win all the Trials to back it up) is rare enough.. someone who's got that martial ability AND also happens to be an off-the-deep-end psycho is doubly rare.

Makes sense to me. Don't forget: Even if they are Clan, not being Snow Raven doesn't mean 100% brainless. There's a lot you can do with 10% brainpower and a decent PPC.

Naah.  Not that the Raven's wouldn't do it, or couldn't (Falcon scientists did take a huge purge not that long ago..), but that there's no need.  Sibko programs make Malvinas inevitable, even if they are rare.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #624 on: 20 December 2013, 16:07:21 »
That's my issue; if Malvina is the result of Clan culture and Sibko programs why did such an example take so long to show up? Why haven't there been others?

There have been.

Does the name Brett Andrews ring any bells?
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #625 on: 20 December 2013, 16:22:21 »
What he said.

Besides, even if Malvina-style psychopaths do show up on a semi-regulart basis, it is still very difficult to rise to leadership positions on combat skill alone. Even in a martial society like the Clans, you still need allies, backers, and patrons if you expect to get very far. I'm pretty sure officers are allowed to refuse trial challenges from warriors of lesser rank, so a true nutter can't just challenge every superior he/she gets until they reach the rank of Galaxy Commander. Warriors are often ordered to undergo Trials of Position, and if nobody will sponser you and arrange for those trials to happen, promotions come rarely, if at all. Once you do reach a Cluster command, you must engage in politics and other non-combat jockeying for position, otherwise your unit will not be sent on missions where you can gain glory for further promotion. You have to catch the Galaxy Commander's eye for him to give you combat opportunities, or for him to recommend you and your unit to the Khans for high-level assingments. No fights, no glory, no promotions. And of course, you cannot (normally) reach the level of Khan without building a support base among your Clan, since that position is achieved by election rather than Trial.

In Malvina's case, she had such a patron in the form of her far more stable brother. He was able to climb the ranks normally, and his loyalty to his sister allowed her to follow him up the ladder. When he died she took his place, and could use her brand of violence from there.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #626 on: 20 December 2013, 16:27:56 »
What he said.

Besides, even if Malvina-style psychopaths do show up on a semi-regulart basis, it is still very difficult to rise to leadership positions on combat skill alone. Even in a martial society like the Clans, you still need allies, backers, and patrons if you expect to get very far. I'm pretty sure officers are allowed to refuse trial challenges from warriors of lesser rank, so a true nutter can't just challenge every superior he/she gets until they reach the rank of Galaxy Commander. Warriors are often ordered to undergo Trials of Position, and if nobody will sponser you and arrange for those trials to happen, promotions come rarely, if at all. Once you do reach a Cluster command, you must engage in politics and other non-combat jockeying for position, otherwise your unit will not be sent on missions where you can gain glory for further promotion. You have to catch the Galaxy Commander's eye for him to give you combat opportunities, or for him to recommend you and your unit to the Khans for high-level assingments. No fights, no glory, no promotions. And of course, you cannot (normally) reach the level of Khan without building a support base among your Clan, since that position is achieved by election rather than Trial.

In Malvina's case, she had such a patron in the form of her far more stable brother. He was able to climb the ranks normally, and his loyalty to his sister allowed her to follow him up the ladder. When he died she took his place, and could use her brand of violence from there.

I mostly agree.. where we disagree is in the extreme cases (like Malvina).  This reminds me of the old thread where Clans and Performing-Enhancing Drugs were discussed.  Yes, being able to win every Trial you're in isn't the end all, be all.  If I'm a superfreak like Malvina, or I'm a hopped up juicer, when I go to challenge my way up the ranks (or to gain a bigger mech, or to be included in a glorious mission, or to refuse a suicide mission, or whatever) the commander can provisionally refuse.  However that commander will also have rivals, who can use the psycho ristar/druggie as a tool.  The commander ends up being manipulated, or eventually ends up looking like he's unable/afraid to keep his warrior in line.  One the Trial happens, the psycho/druggie wins and the cycle repeats, until she is Khan or finally loses a fight somewhere along the way.

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #627 on: 20 December 2013, 16:28:47 »
There's also Beckett Malthus to consider.  He was a major power broker in the Clan, being behind Jana Pryde's rise to power.  Pryde put him in command of the desant in order to get him out of the way, and he saw the Hazen sibs as a way to consolidate a power base.  He just didn't anticipate how out of control Malvina would get once Aleks was gone, and then it was too late to rein her in.
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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #628 on: 20 December 2013, 16:38:38 »
I mostly agree.. where we disagree is in the extreme cases (like Malvina).  This reminds me of the old thread where Clans and Performing-Enhancing Drugs were discussed.  Yes, being able to win every Trial you're in isn't the end all, be all.  If I'm a superfreak like Malvina, or I'm a hopped up juicer, when I go to challenge my way up the ranks (or to gain a bigger mech, or to be included in a glorious mission, or to refuse a suicide mission, or whatever) the commander can provisionally refuse.  However that commander will also have rivals, who can use the psycho ristar/druggie as a tool.  The commander ends up being manipulated, or eventually ends up looking like he's unable/afraid to keep his warrior in line.  One the Trial happens, the psycho/druggie wins and the cycle repeats, until she is Khan or finally loses a fight somewhere along the way.

This assumes that said rivals are also blind to the threat the psycho/druggie poses to the future of the Clan. Remember, even in Clan politics, there are scruples.

I'm not saying that the system is set up so that Malvinas can't reach high rank, because it's obviously possible, or we wouldn't have heard of Malvina, or Brett, or Clan Smoke Jaguar, or even the Clans at all. I'm just saying that there are sufficient roadblocks that such occurences should be rare. The fact that we've only heard of a few of them supports this. Are Malvina-types in command positions inevitable? Yes. No system is perfect, and the Clan system can be generally acknowledged as being about as far from perfect as any system that got past a spellchecker. However, it has enough checks and balances that such occurences are the exceptions, not the rule.

There's also Beckett Malthus to consider.  He was a major power broker in the Clan, being behind Jana Pryde's rise to power.  Pryde put him in command of the desant in order to get him out of the way, and he saw the Hazen sibs as a way to consolidate a power base.  He just didn't anticipate how out of control Malvina would get once Aleks was gone, and then it was too late to rein her in.

Exactly. He qualifies as one of those who tried to use Malvina in a power play, but failed to see her threat. I'd like to think that even in the back-alley kindergarden that is the upper ranks of Clan Jade Falcon, most of them have more brains than he did.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: TRO 3145/ER 3145 - The future is here
« Reply #629 on: 20 December 2013, 17:37:09 »
Are Malvina-types in command positions inevitable? Yes. No system is perfect, and the Clan system can be generally acknowledged as being about as far from perfect as any system that got past a spellchecker. However, it has enough checks and balances that such occurences are the exceptions, not the rule.

We're on the same page.

 

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