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Author Topic: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus  (Read 13108 times)

Death by Zeus

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #60 on: 18 June 2013, 23:24:15 »
I think he means considering it a heavy, not an assault, I think.........
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Savage Coyote

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #61 on: 19 June 2013, 00:48:24 »
  I never cared for the 9T because, with the additional armor, the "feel" of the Zeus was gone and replaced by what felt like yet another nearly max-armored Assault 'Mech.

I figure the 9T fits into the 3060 world of more damage, more streamlined, optimized designs compared to the 9S... firepower's really unchanged...

Gryphon

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #62 on: 19 June 2013, 03:43:25 »
No, it's neither an assault nor a heavy...it's a SCOUT MECH!!!

You just have to grok it form a Lyran point of view.

OH, and it's make a damn fine lawn gnome too!

A. Lurker

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #63 on: 20 June 2013, 01:01:59 »
OH, and it's make a damn fine lawn gnome too!

So that's how the Lyrans "disarmed". Instant lawn gnome industry springing up overnight...and probably making a pretty kroner in the process, too. :)

Greatclub

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #64 on: 11 July 2018, 15:51:17 »
When does a Zeus X make in-universe sense? The only situation I could come up with is in a special operations unit with a strict limit on dropship 'mech-bays

It's a good mech on the tabletop; not the equal of a Timberwolf, but in the same ballpark. The problem is the 400XXL driving the cost to stratospheric levels.  You could buy literal battalions of bug 'mechs for the cost of one.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #65 on: 11 July 2018, 16:09:29 »
Two problems with that thought . . . the XXL at one point becomes main stream enough to be built as a production line rather than one-offs.  You also see other XXL mechs becoming more common . . . so just like IMO the XL engine price would come down over time as they became more plentiful & economy of scale- IE a XL in 3049 is going to be more rare, thus expensive than in 3060 when more designs use them and more places produce the XL.

The change in 3100 of a lot of Advanced equipment becoming standard without price revisions is complicated by FASAnomics . . . part of the reason IMO they have thrown the c-bill overboard and instead campaign systems use meta-game RP/SP to figure out resource allotment.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #66 on: 11 July 2018, 16:34:25 »
When does a Zeus X make in-universe sense? The only situation I could come up with is in a special operations unit with a strict limit on dropship 'mech-bays

It's a good mech on the tabletop; not the equal of a Timberwolf, but in the same ballpark. The problem is the 400XXL driving the cost to stratospheric levels.  You could buy literal battalions of bug 'mechs for the cost of one.
The early Zeus Xs are merely prototypes, experimental things, tech showcases. I figure they're there to showcase Defiance's technological prowess, as such they make sense in-universe as marketing pieces.
By the time Zeus X4 rolls out, the XXL engines are relatively common in-universe with several production-grade 'Mechs using them (Savage Wolf, Dasher II, Warhammer IIC variant, Prey Seeker, Vulpes, Wulfen, to name few) and tournament legal rules-wise. They do retain their cost rules-wise, but presumably those costs do not hold true in-universe (if they did, 99% of BattleTech wouldn't work at all).


Personally, i'm rather worried about the 'Mech's design and purpose than its economics. Reactive armor isn't bad, but composite structure is dubious, especially with something as fragile as an XXL engine. Integral command console means the 'Mech is a command unit and thus likely in limited production only, it most certainly means there is little purpose in having multiple ones on the field at once.
But perhaps those features combined with its weapons loadout make it tougher than it looks at a glance. Its armament is geared for long-range fighting, while not great compared to Clan weapons, it is decent vs Inner Sphere, especially with its speed. And it has fortunately low damage output, meaning it is limited threat in itself. Basically a mobile command 'Mech.
But i'm not sure that idea is that useful, nor why not just pick some more traditional command unit, unless the Zeus X4 is intended for cavalry formations.
« Last Edit: 11 July 2018, 16:38:34 by Empyrus »

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #67 on: 11 July 2018, 19:30:02 »
I'm not sure where it was intended to serve.  It's obviously not for export, since it's a Zeus, but I can't imagine trying to fight the Clans in it.  The Falcons love mobile, long range mechs that would eat the Zeus X.  I suppose with the Reactive Armor it would be effective against LRM-loving former FWL states.

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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #68 on: 11 July 2018, 20:47:10 »
TRO3145 LC implies the Zeus X4 is most certainly in service, but it also paints the other models as merely experimental prototypes that were failures.

The 'Mech probably doesn't do well against the Clans except against Clan missile boats. Most certainly useful versus the FWL, and if the Lyrans have cavalry formations, the Zeus X4 would be good fit in those, as the FWL has quite few 4/6 heavies and assault 'Mechs.
The service history section in the TRO indicates the Zeus X4 saw service against the Dracs, notes its effectiveness vs the Dragon II. The Kuritans do have some other Arrow IV platforms as well, so there is some utility there.
Overall the 'Mech feels very much geared toward fighting IS tech than anything else though.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #69 on: 11 July 2018, 21:15:55 »
Well, in a time where the Clans themselves are not fielding units made up solely of Clan grade equipment and we have more vehicles (which primarily use AC & Missiles) some of it makes sense.
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Greatclub

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #70 on: 12 July 2018, 02:54:56 »
Two problems with that thought . . . the XXL at one point becomes main stream enough to be built as a production line rather than one-offs.  You also see other XXL mechs becoming more common . . . so just like IMO the XL engine price would come down over time as they became more plentiful & economy of scale- IE a XL in 3049 is going to be more rare, thus expensive than in 3060 when more designs use them and more places produce the XL.


Problem; that doesn't happen with military gear. I remember reading an analysis that if you look at the engines of military aircraft and tanks, then adjust for inflation, you're only a few tens of percent off. The F-16's engine, from the 70's until the mid-'00s, went down ~15%, IIRC, and the F-15's went up. The electronics went through the roof in the same period.

They just don't build enough for the economies of scale to kick in. Maybe if the XXL prices given were for experimental one-offs, but if that was a production price, figure it's in the right order of magnitude.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #71 on: 12 July 2018, 03:50:12 »
I read that analysis, and if you look at the topic you can see what counter points were made to it- IE, the engines have not been getting updated/changed for their basic performance . . . I also remember the B-2 and F-22 programs where an initial price was quoted for X number of units.  Then each program ended up having X-whatever the number was actually built as Congress shrunk the number of units ordered.  While they saved on the materials and labor that went into building a single airframe, the cost PER airframe increased b/c the R&D costs were divided by fewer and fewer airframes.

IMO a better example might be 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s costs, especially for the 3040s & 3050s tech recovery.  In the 30s jet engines were still on the drawing board as theory though some steps had been made to get one functional.  For most of WWII most designs used piston engines, SFE if you will, though performances were improved its not something BTU models.  Towards the end jet fighters started making an appearance and even though jet engines (XLs) were more expensive and were not able to be produced in the numbers military planners may have wanted they did make an appearance, analogous to TRO 3050 which had the upgrade kits for mechs . . . but the XLs were not common.

But the 1950s roll around in the Korean War . . . we started with the same fighters and bombers forming the core of the air forces but the number of jets were increasing (TRO3055/58/60) because the infrastructure to build the needed numbers of jet engines to convert the forces were coming online.  The machines that built the machines that built the machines that built jet engines if you will, and here is where economies of scale comes into play IMO b/c the jet engine for a fighter in '44 was more expensive and rare than the Sabre's engine in '50-ish when the US was converting to jets and during that airframe's tenure they built nearly 10k.

I think the XXL might best be mirrored in the SR-71 to F-22.  The SR-71 came out during Gen 2 fighters, extremely expensive and high performance like the XXL in the 3050s, and while some of the research and materials was used in Gen 3 fighters it was not until Gen 4 with the F-22 a production airframe with similar capabilities for speed came into being.  Understand I am generalizing b/c they are not designed for the same profile- recon vs superiority.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #72 on: 12 July 2018, 07:16:31 »
I'm reasonably certain that the original prices for XXLs were for prototype units - might not be purely handbuilt, but it's at best a small, high security R&D plant.
When we have to factor in here is the scale of the universe (and FASAnomics not making any sense) - Just picking the Vlar 300 XL, in modern times, it has been in production for many decades, at multiple planets and probably from the same techbase, in quantities that probably exceed a few dozen a day. That is a significantly higher production than any real world military would enjoy - after all, we only have this one planet to ruin. The fact that the republic outfitted a garrison hovertank produced by the hundreds with an XXL makes me assume that while R&D costs might still be astronomical, the actual production cost can't be that much higher than an XL.
Still, the Zeus isn't a mainline unit, so that might be a problem it doesn't have.
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Moonsword

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #73 on: 12 July 2018, 08:31:52 »
Ladies and gentlemen, two things:

1. This is a thread about the Zeus, not economics.  Take that to General.
2. Do not start bringing up military procurement or other real-world political issues.  That gets Rule 4 in a hurry.

Luciora

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #74 on: 12 July 2018, 12:47:20 »
Just finished up kitbashing the Zeus Leonidas, after mistaking a 9S2 for it for so many years.  I like both, and still pretty enamored of the 6Y.
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 16:57:23 by Luciora »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #75 on: 12 July 2018, 16:01:22 »
While the number of production variants stops at seven, four more experimental versions exist. A brief trial was tried on the 6S during the Succession Wars, called the 6Y. Downgrading the missile rack allowed the large laser to be increased to a blazer. The test designs did not fare well with the installation of the binary laser and the experiment was halted.


I feel like this kind of gives short shrift to the 6Y.  It’s actually the most interesting Succession Wars Zeus, to me at least.  And the XTRO makes clear that it was more than a prototype, and saw limited production.  How many other production designs out there have a Blazer? A shame it didn’t become more widespread, really.
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 16:18:11 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Ruger

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #76 on: 12 July 2018, 19:29:20 »
As a Lyran, I love the Zeus, I just wish there was an official model with a LB-10X and at least a couple tons of ammo per ammo using weapon...

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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #77 on: 12 July 2018, 19:42:52 »
As a Lyran, I love the Zeus, I just wish there was an official model with a LB-10X and at least a couple tons of ammo per ammo using weapon...

Ruger
The Zeus X-WD is pretty close with its LB-20X and HPPC.
There's also Stacy's modified Zeus X-WD that does have LB-10X though that one is unfortunately unique.

Unfortunately the Lyrans really started liking PPC Zeus after the T model, they haven't really bothered with anything else except the Gauss-armed S2.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #78 on: 12 July 2018, 20:00:51 »
The low ammo is kind of part of it being a zeus, is it not?
That said, the AC version in the SW has no ammo problems with that and hopefully won't as reliably explode - Still, there sure aren't many variants for a mech serving for so long; I kind of consider the Zeus X it's own machine, really. It's 80 tons and has a similar name, and that's mostly where the similarities end.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #79 on: 12 July 2018, 20:26:12 »
The Zeus doesn't really have low ammo, IMO. In an introductory version, low ammo is a boon, and 8 shots (for the LRM) is good enough. Especially since the ammo is in a side torsos without padding.
The 9S has only one ton of ammo for the LRM and CASE which is a bit dubious but if you use all long range weapons while approaching, the ammo probably runs out around the time you bring the MPL to play, this allows it to run cool so it works out pretty nicely. Not ideal, but there are 'Mechs with worse issues, like two tons of Streak ammo for Streak-2 and no CASE.
The 9S2 and 9T feature 2 tons of ammo per weapon, ie standard load that isn't really regarded as being too low.

Luciora

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #80 on: 12 July 2018, 20:57:11 »
I always felt the Zeus should be emptying the LRM battery on the way in to melee things since the lasers would be best in close.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #81 on: 12 July 2018, 22:49:27 »
And isn’t the Zeus’s LRM arm specifically fluffed as being built for punching?  All the more reason to have emptied your LRMs before you get close.
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jklantern

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #82 on: 12 July 2018, 22:55:58 »
And isn’t the Zeus’s LRM arm specifically fluffed as being built for punching?  All the more reason to have emptied your LRMs before you get close.


This was ALWAYS my favorite piece of Zeus fluff.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #83 on: 12 July 2018, 23:38:53 »
The Zeus features Barrel Fist design quirk on right arm as for BMM, which means the arm functions as if it had hand actuator when it comes to punching.
Doesn't make it good in melee, with its somewhat thin armor for its size and the left arm lacking the "barrel fist" feature and hand actuator but then again, it could be worse.

SteelRaven

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Re: Mech of the Week: ZEU-** Zeus
« Reply #84 on: 13 July 2018, 00:52:28 »
You know what, I'm a little disappointed we never had art work of the Zeus punching someone with it's LRM gauntlet.

Think this is close as it gets:
https://www.deviantart.com/steampoweredmikej/art/Battletech-Open-Sesame-343835989
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