TRO 3145--Federated Suns

[MadCapellan]

This statement's similarity to a statement found in a confusing legal document is very high.

I've got no clue what you just tried to say. Could you parse it down for my simple brain?

He's saying that everyone is interpreting the facts/product to suit their established opinions/associations, and that everyone's running with their own.

[gyedid]

@Gyedid

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.  Are you seriously arguing the Davions shouldn't build new 'Mechs and shouldn't have gotten a 3145 TRO?  You might as well ask Herb to just wipe the Davions out.

Well, we've all been led to believe that Herb hates the Fed Suns, so perhaps in his heart of hearts, that's just what he'd like to do--or at the very least, give them the treatment they gave the Capellans during the 4th SW.  Then again, he was supposedly a Lyran supporter (his Bertram Habeas alter ego), and look what he's done to THEM.  Whatever the case, it's hard to see any way for the Fed Suns out of their current situation without outside help.

I'm not arguing that the Fed Suns shouldn't build new designs--they've always been at or near the forefront of military development.  What I am arguing is that the context these designs have been introduced in seems to be for the express purposes of being wiped out en masse; having the production facilities fall into the hands of the FS' enemies (as you yourself pointed out, denying the AFFS the ability to replace their losses and defend what's left); and appear generally ineffective against enemy forces that seem to have all the right preparations--and can now field the AFFS's own designs against them, quite possibly upgraded with the same technologies they've been using to nullify the AFFS' effectiveness.  Just imagine what that does to morale, when you're already reeling from the biggest military debacle since the Reunification War.

cheers,

Gabe

[Kitsune413]

Era report 3145's taking place in the middle of a giant war instead of after said war has been a blessing and a curse. I have never been so excited to know what happens next. It is like our empire strikes back.

And the people who are emotionally invested in a faction are all left hanging on the edge of their seat. Its really emotional and really easy to be scared. Its an awesome culmination of decades of good writing and a time bomb of unresolved emotions.

Anyways. I miss the templars big shoulder shields

[JadeHellbringer]

Yeah, I admit that removing the big shoulder-flanges from the Templar just feels wrong- it loses a lot of the character the Mech had previously. But, that's how the Wizkids sculpt was (and tiny, to boot!)... alas.  :-\

But, at least the Black Knight, Centurion, and Atlas all look pretty spiffy in their new forms, right? (reserving judgement on the Hollander for now)

[MadCapellan]

What I am arguing is that the context these designs have been introduced in seems to be for the express purposes of being wiped out en masse;

I'm not sure I'm following you.  If you are saying "the Federated Suns is losing in this TRO", that's because the Federated Suns is losing in 3145.  The TRO is set more or less simultaneously with the Era Report, so nothing additional has yet occured.

having the production facilities fall into the hands of the FS' enemies (as you yourself pointed out, denying the AFFS the ability to replace their losses and defend what's left);

While this applies to a few factories, this does not apply to most of them. The manufacturers of many of these units have been long established, and most of these units are not brand-new.  The Federated Suns may well begin producing them elsewhere in the future if the need remains.

and appear generally ineffective against enemy forces that seem to have all the right preparations

I'm not sure where this impression is coming from either.  I'm reading over the articles and I'm seeing some great designs that are performing admirably, often defeated only by the overwhelmingly poor strategic situation.  If you're outnumbered three-to-one, it really doesn't matter how awesome your 'Mech is.

and can now field the AFFS's own designs against them, quite possibly upgraded with the same technologies they've been using to nullify the AFFS' effectiveness.

I'm still not totally tracking on this whole "nullify"ing business.  It's not like the Federated Suns' weapons don't deal damage anymore.  Specific defensive armors like the ones a lot of the new DCMS units have are only good against specific weapon systems, and despite the Davion's penchant for autocannons, there are sure a lot of lasers and missiles in this TRO.

[Kitsune413]

Herb definitely doesnt hate the federated suns. They are part of a setting that he loves and has contributed an immense amount of time, energy and love.  Its amazing how much the writers care.

The federated suns situation is a result of being flanked by two nations theye have historically fought and been aggressive with. You have the unique situation and capability of being big damn heroes. So quit whining and be heroic davion. You owe us three planets so we wont let you fail. We will sell you some mechs if you need.

Herb hates warships. He is also supporting products that have them specifically for the fans. He doesnt hate the fs.

Even if you want to think he does. Please stop trying to bite the hand that feeds you. I am endlessly impressed with our writers.

[Kitsune413]

Yeah, I admit that removing the big shoulder-flanges from the Templar just feels wrong- it loses a lot of the character the Mech had previously. But, that's how the Wizkids sculpt was (and tiny, to boot!)... alas.  :-\

But, at least the Black Knight, Centurion, and Atlas all look pretty spiffy in their new forms, right? (reserving judgement on the Hollander for now)

I love the looks of the gunsmith. Vulpes and facehugger too. Gonna miss my giant crosses but I can bask in the visual glory of the two new fighters and that sweet hover tank.

[tapdancingbeavers]

So a nation that is losing two wars has had problems with 'mech design, losing factories, etc; perhaps the TRO shows some of the reasons the Suns aren't doing too well?

[SteveRestless]

Herb hates warships. He is also supporting products that have them specifically for the fans.

Wait what? What new products have got warships? I thought we were entering the twillight of the warship.

[MadCapellan]

Wait what? What new products have got warships? I thought we were entering the twillight of the warship.

According to some recent posts by Herb, the 2750 Field Reports.

[SteveRestless]

Oh, previous era stuff. I thought there was some hint of the return of the warship to the current timeline that I'd missed.

[Kitsune413]

Wait what? What new products have got warships? I thought we were entering the twillight of the warship.

2750 field manuals. Warships will always live in the past cause nagasawa's gonna kill them in the future.

[tapdancingbeavers]

Oh, previous era stuff. I thought there was some hint of the return of the warship to the current timeline that I'd missed.

I'd be massively surprised if warships ever turn up again except in very, very small numbers since they create issues with the story, namely that they are an "I win" button.

[Kitsune413]

Ignoring our floating cities. But we seem pretty anti orbital bom ardment.

[SteveRestless]

I really like the arcships, I just wish they were an addition, not a replacement.

[Nahuris]

I'm going to say that this one surprised me a bit--- I was looking for something solid at 55 tons, to augment all those Dervishes that Davion had..... but was not unhappy with what is here --- the Prey Seeker could use a couple of variants ..... it's got 5 tons for weapons, after all ...... but it is useful.
The Gunsmith is solid, but not remarkable.
I see the Scarecrow being a true terror in cities..... and regardless of what the stated usage is, 3 clan er mediums is still good anti-mech firepower.

The Hollander 3 is nice.... but I really think that the FC should just import Blades from the ROTS.... faster, and with a similar load out..... although pairing them up would be nice.

The Black Knight is a beast, as usual, and the Atlas is rather interesting .....

The Kruger is extremely similar to a number of the vehicles I have been making from GHQ vehicles over the last few years.... so fielding those will be nice. I have always felt that armored cars were poorly implemented in Battletech, so it's nice to see some love sent that way.... and woe to any straggler mech if a small pack of them manages to start circling it.

I am rather amused by the Hasek.... we've finally got half tracks in Battletech.....LOL.

As to the rest, most of the comments here have already covered what I would add.....

Nahuris

[SteelRaven]

So a nation that is losing two wars has had problems with 'mech design, losing factories, etc; perhaps the TRO shows some of the reasons the Suns aren't doing too well?

No, the Fed Suns started getting their butts kicked because they had a crazy First Price Celeb Davion and his imaginary friend in charge, not to mention a few other incompetent leaders in the ranks. Same story with the Lyran Commonwealth and the former Republic. The TRO reads more like "We may now have a chance to fight back" the Centurion Omni, Black Knight and Templar III especially.         

[StCptMara]

Herb definitely doesnt hate the federated suns. They are part of a setting that he loves and has contributed an immense amount of time, energy and love.  Its amazing how much the writers care.

The federated suns situation is a result of being flanked by two nations theye have historically fought and been aggressive with. You have the unique situation and capability of being big damn heroes. So quit whining and be heroic davion. You owe us three planets so we wont let you fail. We will sell you some mechs if you need.

Herb hates warships. He is also supporting products that have them specifically for the fans. He doesnt hate the fs.

Even if you want to think he does. Please stop trying to bite the hand that feeds you. I am endlessly impressed with our writers.

(bold and italics on the important part for emphasis)
This! 100% this!
If I were to judge the fate of the faction by the response of its fans, I would say: The Davion's only source of hope
is Rorke. All the others have already given up, and are meekly on their knees waiting for the sword to the neck.
I used to have some grudging respect for the Davion Fans. They accepted defeats, they accepted the abuse of
all the other fan bases. Suddenly, however, their faction gets a little down turn, and a chance for them to prove
that they can be the heroes of setting by doing what heroes are supposed to do: Face down long odds, stand tall
and proud, and fight to the last. What do they do? Kvetch that their faction is hated by the writers, complain that
dang good units are crap, simply because they aren't a whole slew of heavies and assaults, say they are going to
quit the game because their faction isn't the Big Kid on the block that everyone is afraid to have a real war with
anymore. They see a little adversity and their response is to want to take their ball and go home? Not prove they
can triumph in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds?

So, you proud Sons of the Suns, are you going to show us that audacity that we have so come to expect of the
Federated Suns, the "How do you keep from clanking when you walk?" daring that we expect? Or are you going
to stay on your knees?

[HikageMaru]

All the others have already given up, and are meekly on their knees waiting for the sword to the neck.

That sounds oddly familiar....

[Nahuris]

(bold and italics on the important part for emphasis)
This! 100% this!
If I were to judge the fate of the faction by the response of its fans, I would say: The Davion's only source of hope
is Rorke. All the others have already given up, and are meekly on their knees waiting for the sword to the neck.
I used to have some grudging respect for the Davion Fans. They accepted defeats, they accepted the abuse of
all the other fan bases. Suddenly, however, their faction gets a little down turn, and a chance for them to prove
that they can be the heroes of setting by doing what heroes are supposed to do: Face down long odds, stand tall
and proud, and fight to the last. What do they do? Kvetch that their faction is hated by the writers, complain that
dang good units are crap, simply because they aren't a whole slew of heavies and assaults, say they are going to
quit the game because their faction isn't the Big Kid on the block that everyone is afraid to have a real war with
anymore. They see a little adversity and their response is to want to take their ball and go home? Not prove they
can triumph in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds?

So, you proud Sons of the Suns, are you going to show us that audacity that we have so come to expect of the
Federated Suns, the "How do you keep from clanking when you walk?" daring that we expect? Or are you going
to stay on your knees?

Funny thing is, I am NOT a Davion fan.... I am not a fan of any faction over any other ---- I have run far too many games as opposition to have a favorite faction.

That being said, the FedCom has a real opportunity here... and they have the new units to pull it off.
They can teach both Kurita and Liao what the Clans are only just figuring out...... you may have captured a planet... but can you hold it? And, how much are you willing to spend and commit to hold it?

The Krugers alone are worth their weight in gold.... long range fast hit and run vehicles, with dedicated troops. Harass... Harass... Harass ..... rinse, and repeat.
Make it so expensive and annoying that the commanders are spending more resources to hunt you down, than you cost.......

Davion has ALWAYS had the units to do this..... so buck up and do it.

Nahuris

[tapdancingbeavers]

No, the Fed Suns started getting their butts kicked because they had a crazy First Price Celeb Davion and his imaginary friend in charge, not to mention a few other incompetent leaders in the ranks. Same story with the Lyran Commonwealth and the former Republic. The TRO reads more like "We may now have a chance to fight back" the Centurion Omni, Black Knight and Templar III especially.

See how i said "some of the reasons"?  That some designs are good also doesn't mean some in the TRO show issues with how the Suns was fairing.  ::)

[Klat]

I want to like Davion right now. I've even dropped my Tau Ceti Lancers project now that the CC is doing so well. I want to root for an underdog and fight the good fight. I found myself a snazzy looking 2nd Robinson Rangers emblem and was going to start a company of them. Then the doom and gloom "nobody loves us" posts started up. I don't want to be associated with fans like that. So now I'm going to give the DC a whirl. At this point were I in charge I'd kill the FS and let the Taurians do it out of pure spite.

[Aldous]

No, the Fed Suns started getting their butts kicked because they had a crazy First Price Celeb Davion and his imaginary friend in charge, not to mention a few other incompetent leaders in the ranks. Same story with the Lyran Commonwealth and the former Republic. The TRO reads more like "We may now have a chance to fight back" the Centurion Omni, Black Knight and Templar III especially.         

Bleh. Once again blaming Caleb. The problems with the AFFS goes far deeper than what one guy can do in 10 years. This is a systemic failure that seems to cover most aspects of AFFS structure.

Also... the AFFS position is NOT the same as the LCAF. The LCAF is getting clobbered because of massive defeats that decimated its army. They simply lost too much to be effective in a direct battle.

At a guess, I would say the AFFS simply isn't used to fight at equal or lesser odds and can't adjust to it. They don't have a 3-1 advantage anymore over their enemies.

[Aldous]

That sounds oddly familiar....

eh? True Capellans do not meekly wait for the sword. We kneel to get the enemy closer so we can jam a knife between their legs!

[Alexander Knight]

Suddenly, however, their faction gets a little down turn,

A little downturn?  Out of curiosity, was the 4th Succession War a minor inconvenience to House Liao?  Has it occurred to you that the Davion motto since 3030 can generally be summed up as "no matter what it is now, it can always get worse".

[tapdancingbeavers]

A little downturn?  Out of curiosity, was the 4th Succession War a minor inconvenience to House Liao?  Has it occurred to you that the Davion motto since 3030 can generally be summed up as "no matter what it is now, it can always get worse".

Well it's not really a large downturn, large to me would be like what happened to the FWL, Lyrans, Circinus, Republic, Taurians and homeworld Clans.

[RogueK]

I want to like Davion right now. I've even dropped my Tau Ceti Lancers project now that the CC is doing so well. I want to root for an underdog and fight the good fight. I found myself a snazzy looking 2nd Robinson Rangers emblem and was going to start a company of them. Then the doom and gloom "nobody loves us" posts started up. I don't want to be associated with fans like that. So now I'm going to give the DC a whirl. At this point were I in charge I'd kill the FS and let the Taurians do it out of pure spite.

Oh paint us with the widest possible brush will you ::) :P.

Some of us actually *LIKE* the idea of being in total warfare with our neighbours while in an era that allows us to use the modern gear.

As for mech production lost to enemy factions. I say we take it back! Mech by mech!

Though TBH I'm not all that impressed with the TRO myself. I especially feel let down by the 2/3 speed black knight. And the Centurion while nice statswise is so ****** ugly that I don't *WANT* to field it (Aesthetics matter for me in a miniature wargame go figure). So I guess I'll be using other older designs in their place to kill capellan invaders.

Sure a lot of designs makes strategic sense and will see a lot of work offboard, but the single biggest arbiter for me is whether or not I'd want to use it on the tabletop. And very little here really makes me hot under the collar to put it like that. Maybe once I eventually get around to trying some of this out I'll find more appreciation, but right now: Meh.

[Klat]

Oh paint us with the widest possible brush will you ::) :P.

Some of us actually *LIKE* the idea of being in total warfare with our neighbours while in an era that allows us to use the modern gear.

I will admit that perhaps a vocal minority has clouded my view. My apologies. I still find this vocal minority frustrating but it was wrong of me to lump fans like you in with such rabble.

[ScannerError]

I especially feel let down by the 2/3 speed black knight.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the speeds given in the record sheets are after the shield's speed penalty.  The engine size on page 45 is the only bit that would suggest 2/3 speed (every other bit, including the engine size a page earlier, points at 4/6 reduced to 3/5 by the shield), and I think that's just a typo. 

[Aldous]

I will admit that perhaps a vocal minority has clouded my view. My apologies. I still find this vocal minority frustrating but it was wrong of me to lump fans like you in with such rabble.

Vocal minority?