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Author Topic: Need help with Industry in 3025  (Read 12543 times)

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #60 on: 09 July 2013, 12:27:31 »
Removed for duplication
« Last Edit: 09 July 2013, 12:30:18 by Cazaril »

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #61 on: 09 July 2013, 12:29:46 »
Baltazar III is a world in the Circinus Federation that was described in Jihad sources as housing a secret BattleMech factory established by the Word of Blake. They shouldn't be producing anything prior to the 3060s.

Now THAT is a usable piece of information... Thank you (sincerely)...

Which source? Jihad: Final Reckoning?, or Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents?

Caz

MadCapellan

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #62 on: 09 July 2013, 12:36:27 »
Now THAT is a usable piece of information... Thank you (sincerely)...

Which source? Jihad: Final Reckoning?, or Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents?

Caz

It appeared in a number of them. The first mention was as a rumor in TRO: Project Phoenix, under the Marauder entry.  It's mentioned as being destroyed by the 2nd Free Worlds Guards in Field Manual: 3085.
« Last Edit: 09 July 2013, 12:38:02 by MadCapellan »

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #63 on: 09 July 2013, 12:57:42 »
If you run across the reference to it being established by Word of Blake, I'd appreciate the citation.

As for destroyed dates, while I appreciate that information too... Anything after 3028 (The beginning of the 4th Succession War) is irrelevant...

I'm sure this will break your heart... But I think Max got shafted by the writers in the Warrior series. He was originally written as this devious (granted some what egomaniacal) genius, who used covert operation and treachery, to offset his nations military weakness, in dealing with the superior military might of the Federated Suns... Warrior portrayed him as an egomaniacal idiot... So the outcome of the 4th Succession War will be vastly different in my universe (Starting with a bullet in Justin Xiang Allard's and Alexi Mallory's (AKA: Alexi Malenkov) heads, courtesy of a power hungry Tsen Shang finding them out)... And this from a guy who doesn't even like House Liao...

Which is why I'm interested in 3025 production... I need things before the war.

Caz

MadCapellan

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #64 on: 09 July 2013, 12:59:34 »
If you run across the reference to it being established by Word of Blake, I'd appreciate the citation.

Both of those sources state that.

Dreyf

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #65 on: 13 July 2013, 17:22:22 »
In the questionable section for the Draconis Combine you have DeHuego and Freshet WarShip Design.  The only canon mention of DeHuego and Freshet that I have seen comes from the original House Kurita book and it is listed as DeHuego and Freshet DropShip Design and that the sprawling metropolis was destroyed, but no mention of what world it was located upon.

Also under the  questionable Draconis Combine for Nirasaki you have a New Age Systems Incorporated factory with the Spad as a product.  TRO3050U has the Spad built by NASI on Terra and no mention of Nirasaki.  TRO2750 does not mention a place of production.

Hellraiser

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #66 on: 13 July 2013, 17:54:54 »
Draconis Combine – House Kurita
Chatham
Stellar Trek
 - Objective Raids
* Invader Jumpship
* Merchant Jumpship
* Monolith Jumpship
- Dropships and Jumpships
* Invader Jumpship
* Merchant Jumpship
* Monolith Jumpship
* Star Lord Jumpship

Lapida II
Nimakachi Fusion Products Ltd.
- TRO:3039
* SDR-5V Spider

Luthien
BBP Industries
- Objective Raids
* Excalibur Dropship
* Intruder Dropship
* Triumph Dropship
- Dropships and Jumpships
* Excalibur Dropship
* Intruder Dropship
* Triumph Dropship

Galileo Instruments
- Objective Raids
* Achilles Dropship
* Behemoth Dropship
* Triumph Dropship
- Dropships and Jumpships
* Achilles Dropship
* Behemoth Dropship
* Triumph Dropship  

Not sure if anyone pointed it out, but there are a few errors in the Kurita section that I see.

1.  Kurita does not produce the Monolith in DS&JS.
No faction in 3025 produces all 5 common JS models.
Kurita produces the other 4, but not the Monolith.
See Page 15 & 24 where StellarTrek is shown to produce the Merchant, Invader, & STARLORD, but not the Monolith.  Also in the Monolith description it clearly states that Kurita has lost the ability to produce the Monolith by 3025.
The confusion comes from an ObjRaids error that listed the Starlord instead of the Monolith.
This was further compounded by continuing that error in a later House Kurita sourcebook IIRC.

2.  In 3025 the Spider was only in production in the FWL at Temetagai, not in the DC at Lapida II.
This is confirmed in TRO3050 when it states that the FWL revamped production for Teddy K. even though only 14 Spiders were in production in the IS at that time.
The Lapida II factory appears to have come on line in the early 3050's when all the IS were sharing technical info to defeat the clans.

3.  The Triumph is not produced by Galileo in DS&JS, see your above listing, its at BBP.
The ship your missing is the Monarch class that is listed in DS&JS.

Hope this info helps.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #67 on: 13 July 2013, 19:06:42 »
Not sure if anyone pointed it out, but there are a few errors in the Kurita section that I see.

Thanks for pointing those out... I'll assume that they were actually "cut and paste" errors, as in both cases the lists matched the Objective Raids list.

2.  In 3025 the Spider was only in production in the FWL at Temetagai, not in the DC at Lapida II.
This is confirmed in TRO3050 when it states that the FWL revamped production for Teddy K. even though only 14 Spiders were in production in the IS at that time.
The Lapida II factory appears to have come on line in the early 3050's when all the IS were sharing technical info to defeat the clans.

Thanks for pointing this out too... But again, we come back to, "you don't know for sure"...

While the numbers match (both TRO:3050 and HM:FWL state that NFP makes only 16 Spiders a year), it's possible that they are talking about only the Temetagai facility... And with Gunji no Kanrei Theodore Kurita likely being the motivating force behind the new SDR-7M design, it could be that he is hoping to revitalize the Lapida II factory and increase their production of a Mech they already make.

If Sarna.net's citation of Objectives: Draconis Combine can be trusted, they say about NFP "Founded during the glory days of the original Star League on the Free Worlds League world of Tematagi, like many corporations of the day, Nimakachi's influences spanned across entire breadth of the League. The Draconis Combine was the company's largest "foreign" market and in 2602, Nimakachi purchased the bankrupt Sendai mining complex on Lapida II, using the complex's mining tunnels as factory spaces. Nicknamed "Tematagi Minor" by many in the company, the subterranean facility proved to be a significant deterrent against raiding, military strategist instead suggesting any smart raiders would focus on hijacking the DropShips shipping the completed products off-world."

This suggests that they may have had a facility producing something as early as the early-mid 2600s

Then you have this from TRO:3039;

"The Free Worlds League managed to secure the Spider’s technical schematics from the ruins of the Terran Hegemony and tasked Nimakachi Fusion Products with building the design in exchange for Nimakachi’s exclusive control of Spider technical data. Nimakachi would later expand its Lapida II facility in the Draconis Combine to produce the design as well."

All of which suggest that between the beginning of the destruction wrought by the Succession Wars, and sometime before 3039, NFP was producing Spiders on Lapida II.

Then, and this isn't enough by itself, TRO:3039 and Objectives: Draconis Combine are the newer of the books (2009 and 2011 respectively), while TRO:3050 and TRO:3050U are older (1990 and 2007 respectively)... Although, having said that, this project has never been about which book trumps which, it's really about just getting a condensed list of sources so some sense can be made from the constant RetCon.

Ultimately, there isn't enough evidence to suggest that NFP wasn't producing Spiders on Lapida II in 3025, and a little too much that suggest they were, for me to pull the entry.

Caz
« Last Edit: 13 July 2013, 19:12:47 by Cazaril »

Hellraiser

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #68 on: 13 July 2013, 19:58:19 »
Thanks for pointing this out too... But again, we come back to, "you don't know for sure"...
Actually, we can be pretty sure.  I'm not sure if you realize it so I'll go over the quick history.

The only reason Lapida-II aka Tematagi-Minor exists is due to an error in TRO:3055.

1.  We know for a fact that the FWL/NFP produced 16 Spiders a year in 3025 per HMSB.
2.  We know for a fact that in per both TRO3050's Nimakachi was still producing 16 Spiders total, those would be the 16 in the FWL, no room for any in the DC.
3.  Even Objective Raids has the only Spider production facility as being in the FWL.


Then along comes TRO3055 where someone decided to create a super-Spider AKA the Venom & seeing the names Nimakachi/Tematagi & thought it was a DC firm/planet & so listed the Venom as being produced there, not realizing that Tematagi was a FWL planet & NFP a FWL factory.


Conundrum:  How to fix this obvious error .......   "create" a secondary facility called "Tematagi-Minor" which didn't exist in any prior sourcebook.


Quote
this project has never been about which book trumps which, it's really about just getting a condensed list of sources so some sense can be made from the constant RetCon.
Its because you are trying to make some sense of this that I'm pointing all this out.
Its pretty clear there was no DC production in 3025 or 3050 but also pretty clear that there is production by 3055.

Which leads to the theory that it was probably some time just after the Outreach conference that expansion of the Lapida II mining tunnels factory was cranked up from minor factory to Battlemech/Spider factory & as soon as the 7M's were up & running the order to continue to expansion to include a Venom line came in.  If you check the Venom entry in TRO3055 you'll notice quite a bit of talk about expansion and NFP taking advantage of technology from the DC.


Quote
Ultimately, there isn't enough evidence to suggest that NFP wasn't producing Spiders on Lapida II in 3025, and a little too much that suggest they were, for me to pull the entry.
I hope the added info I provided will give some insight into the timeline of how things occurred.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #69 on: 13 July 2013, 22:31:55 »
Actually, we can be pretty sure.  I'm not sure if you realize it so I'll go over the quick history.

The only reason Lapida-II aka Tematagi-Minor exists is due to an error in TRO:3055.

1.  We know for a fact that the FWL/NFP produced 16 Spiders a year in 3025 per HMSB.
2.  We know for a fact that in per both TRO3050's Nimakachi was still producing 16 Spiders total, those would be the 16 in the FWL, no room for any in the DC.
3.  Even Objective Raids has the only Spider production facility as being in the FWL.

1. Correct. But that is FWL production... And why would a book about FWL discuss DC production. The Kallon entry doesn't speak about the production in the CC or FS.

2. That could be oversight on the part of whoever wrote the fluff... Reports make mistakes. Historians make mistakes. Authors make mistakes... It's the whole reason CGL says that the newest publication has the correct data. It's a fact of life in BattleTech... It's why part of my original post was "All Sources are Flawed". I grant you, that undoubtably means that TRO:3039 is flawed too, but there is nothing newer that proves the Spider's entry is incorrect.

3. There are several Mechs other then NFP - Lapida II - Spider, that are not listed in the House books, or Objective Raids, and are only listed in 3039..

Earthwerks Incorporated - Tikonov - CTF-1X Cataphract
Kallon Industries - Nanking - RFL-3N Rifleman
Alshain Weapons - Alshain - PNT-9R Panther
Luthien Armor Works - Luthien - LNC25-02 Lancelot
Earthwerks Incorporated - Keystone - THG-10E Thug
StarCorps - Emris IV - WHM-6R Warhammer
Defiance Industries of Hesperus II - Hesperus II - FLS-7K Flashman

Just because they are listed no where else, doesn't mean that they are incorrect...

Then along comes TRO3055 where someone decided to create a super-Spider AKA the Venom & seeing the names Nimakachi/Tematagi & thought it was a DC firm/planet & so listed the Venom as being produced there, not realizing that Tematagi was a FWL planet & NFP a FWL factory.

Conundrum:  How to fix this obvious error .......   "create" a secondary facility called "Tematagi-Minor" which didn't exist in any prior sourcebook.

So someone mistakingly places a Spider factory on Lapida II and now that is part of "History", which is an annoying fact about BattleTech... The writers don't fix, they rewrite... And we get to deal with it.

Its because you are trying to make some sense of this that I'm pointing all this out.
Its pretty clear there was no DC production in 3025 or 3050 but also pretty clear that there is production by 3055.

Either you say "Only the original source is correct", in which case only the original sourcebooks are correct. Or you say "The most current books are correct", in which case TRO:3039 and Objectives: Draconis Combine are correct... You can't say "Only these books, written in the middle are correct"...

Whether you agree with the RetCon or not, TRO:3039 places production of Spiders on Lapida II by at least 3039. The history you are quoting me has been revised and rewritten.

Which leads to the theory that it was probably some time just after the Outreach conference that expansion of the Lapida II mining tunnels factory was cranked up from minor factory to Battlemech/Spider factory & as soon as the 7M's were up & running the order to continue to expansion to include a Venom line came in.  If you check the Venom entry in TRO3055 you'll notice quite a bit of talk about expansion and NFP taking advantage of technology from the DC.

"Which leads to the theory"... I've had this argument before... This your opinion/speculation/theory/whatever, which isn't enough...

There is canon evidence that a facility existed on Lapida II as far back as the 2600s. There is canon evidence that SDR-5V Spider was being produced by at least by 3039.

You're providing a theory based on entries missing from sources (which I grant you, were missing probably for a reason. Like NFP was never meant to be in the DC. But we don't get to decide that) and canon evidence, that according to the rules of what is canon, isn't canon anymore.

My opinion, is that it's seems pretty silly to build a facility, to produce the SDR-5V Spider, if all you are going to do is use the same technology that let you build the factory in the first place, to upgrade your design and have to re-tool the facility to accommodate it... Why not just build the factory to make SDR-7Ms to begin with...

But if you didn't have the technology to upgrade the Spider until <enter date>, then you wouldn't have had the technology to build the factory... And while I can maybe (just maybe) see the FWL being willing to let a design, that is exclusive to them by the way, outside their borders. What I can't see is them letting NFP pull one of their factories and move it... So that says that either the facility was already there, or they bought someone else's ruins and rebuilt it (which we have absolutely no proof of).

And I've said this time and again... I am not saying that Nimakachi Fusion Products Ltd. has a facility on Lapida II producing the SDR-5V Spider (I am not a writer for CGL and have no authority to make that statement)... I am saying that TRO:3039 says that Nimakachi Fusion Products Ltd. has a facility on Lapida II producing the SDR-5V Spider, and there is nothing more current to suggest otherwise (which would negate the canonicity of TRO:3039)... And until such canon evidence that specifically states , through date or cited link to a known dated event, when the Lapida II facility began to produce the SDR-5V Spider (or any other 'Mech if they produced something else there before the Spider), the entry will stand.

Caz
« Last Edit: 13 July 2013, 22:36:08 by Cazaril »

Hayden.

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #70 on: 16 July 2013, 16:14:23 »
Regarding the Ceres Metals factory on St. Ives...

Objectives Raids (FASA Stock # 1665, published 1992) states:

"When St. Ives gained its independence from the Capellan Confederation, the St. Ives Ceres Metals Plant found itself with an unexpected problem.  Ceres had anticipated strong sales of its product, the VND-1R Vindicator 'Mech to the weapons-hungry St. Ives military."  The book then goes on to explain how St. Ives 'mech pilots refused to operate their Vindicators (sounds a bit Deus Ex Machina-y) so production shifted to the BJ-3, which  was developed with Davion technical assistance from the BJ-2 field refit.  This is on Pg. 149.

That said, this is the only reference to this factory's  production circa the 4th succession war that I am aware of.
Hayden

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #71 on: 18 July 2013, 14:27:29 »
Regarding the Ceres Metals factory on St. Ives...

Objectives Raids (FASA Stock # 1665, published 1992) states:

"When St. Ives gained its independence from the Capellan Confederation, the St. Ives Ceres Metals Plant found itself with an unexpected problem.  Ceres had anticipated strong sales of its product, the VND-1R Vindicator 'Mech to the weapons-hungry St. Ives military."  The book then goes on to explain how St. Ives 'mech pilots refused to operate their Vindicators (sounds a bit Deus Ex Machina-y) so production shifted to the BJ-3, which  was developed with Davion technical assistance from the BJ-2 field refit.  This is on Pg. 149.

That said, this is the only reference to this factory's  production circa the 4th succession war that I am aware of.

So what you are saying is that it should have existed in 3025, and they should have been producing Vindicators, correct?

With Objective Raids citing only the one line, it seems highly unlikely that they were producing anything else along with it.

Caz

Hayden.

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #72 on: 18 July 2013, 18:32:40 »
So what you are saying is that it should have existed in 3025, and they should have been producing Vindicators, correct?

With Objective Raids citing only the one line, it seems highly unlikely that they were producing anything else along with it.

Caz

That's how I read it.

That said, Objectives Raids is a little hit-and-miss, and later sources like TRO 3039 make no reference to production of either 'mech on St. Ives at that point (3039).  The later Handbook: House Liao (Circa 3067) lists the Blackjack as being produced there.  It's cloudy as usual ;)
Hayden

hpackrat

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #73 on: 19 July 2013, 04:55:32 »
Out of curiosity, what are the most common brand items in the Sphere? I'm talking about stuff that any merc can get hold of no matter if he were in the FS, LC, DC, FWL, CC, Rasalhague, OA, MC, TC, etc. I know Pitban-240s, VOX-280s & Vlar-300s are common in every House. Not sure about Nissan-200 or 225s but the Sabre uses Nissan-225s & the ASF is found in every House so its a good bet. Magna Hellstar & Donal PPCs seem to exist in all Houses except mebbe in FWL in 3025. Perhaps the Parti-Kill PPC should be considered the most common since its used in Manticores & manufactured by Quikscell. What are the most popular & common brand items out there?

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #74 on: 19 July 2013, 10:12:59 »
Out of curiosity, what are the most common brand items in the Sphere?

Wow, that's a pretty hard question to answer, but I'll give it a shot... But you have to remember that this is based on all the sources I used. Nothing has been weeded out except the stuff that couldn't exist.... And to get on the list, it has to be present in at least 4 Houses (Great or Lesser)

Mechs
Archer (DC, FWL, LC, P-TC)
Griffin (FS, FWL, LC, P-TC)
Locust (CC, FS, FWL, LC, P-MC, P-OA, P-TC)
Marauder (FS, FWL, LC, P-TC)
Phoenix Hawk (DC, FS, FWL, LC)
Stinger (CC, FWL, LC, P-MC, P-OA, P-TC)
Wasp (CC, FS, FWL, LC, P-MC, P-OA, P-TC)

Aerospace
Lightning (CC, FS, LC, P-OA, P-TC)
Sabre (FS, LC, P-MC, P-TC)

Conventional
Note - Anything with a # after it, means that it's components are produced by various manufactures.
APC - Hover (CC, DC, FWL, LC) #
APC - Tracked (CC, DC, FWL, LC, P-TC) #
APC - Wheeled (CC, DC, FS, FWL, LC) #
Behemoth Heavy Tank (CC, Terra, DC, FS)
Demolisher Heavy Tank (CC, Terra, DC, FS)
LRM Carrier (CC, Terra, DC, FS, FWL, LC) #
Manticore Heavy Tank (CC, DC, FS, LC, P-MC)
Pegasus Scout Hover (CC, DC, FWL, LC)
Scorpion Light Tank (CC, DC, FS, FWL, LC)
SRM Carrier (CC, Terra, DC, FS, FWL, LC) #
Vedette Medium Tank (CC, DC, FS, LC, P-OA, P-TC)

For individual components... That's going to take me a little longer... Give me a bit and I'll be back with a list.

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #75 on: 19 July 2013, 11:06:46 »
Out of curiosity, what are the most common brand items in the Sphere? I'm talking about stuff that any merc can get hold of no matter if he were in the FS, LC, DC, FWL, CC, Rasalhague, OA, MC, TC, etc. I know Pitban-240s, VOX-280s & Vlar-300s are common in every House. Not sure about Nissan-200 or 225s but the Sabre uses Nissan-225s & the ASF is found in every House so its a good bet. Magna Hellstar & Donal PPCs seem to exist in all Houses except mebbe in FWL in 3025. Perhaps the Parti-Kill PPC should be considered the most common since its used in Manticores & manufactured by Quikscell. What are the most popular & common brand items out there?

Ok, I'm back already....

Pretty much, at this point, I can't do it... The biggest reason is the list... The list is raw data. Meant to be whittled down by each GM to create his own production list... That means that each GM is going to have to sit down and decide; Which sources carry the most weight. Which production facilities really exist. What are these facilities really producing... And that means each list will be unique (or pretty close to it)...  I haven't done this for myself yet, but even if I had, my list would be neither official, nor would it be relevant to the BT Universe you play in.

Then, you'd have to reverse that list into a Objective Raids type format (not an easy feat), taking into consideration variants of units and who is producing the variant parts...

I tried to use the list I distilled from Objective Raids, but it is tainted with the newer technology, and doesn't have all the information from all the other sources... Making it highly incomplete.

That having been said... Figure there is a high likelihood that if they build the unit (like a Stinger), then they also build all the parts needed (Earthwerks STG Chassis, Chilton 360   Jump Jets, 120 Fusion Engine, Medium Laser, Machine Guns, Reise-100 armor), although the exact manufacturer might be different (Like I found a reference to StarSlab/1 armor in P-OA, 4 different comm systems, GM Lennox LTV Nissan and Vox 120 engines, Pitban LFT-20 and Rawlings 52 Jumpjets, 3 different machine guns, 4 different medium lasers, 3 different Tar/Track Systems... And this is just within Objective Raids)... So you might not find your brand, but you should find something that works.

As to certain brands... I have from Objective Raids
Magna Hellstar PPC (CC, DC, P-OA, P-TC)
Donal PPC (CC, DC)
Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon (LC, P-MC)

But again, with manufactures switching to ER-PPCs and the like, the list is skewed

Engines are somewhat worse. Not only did manufactures switch to XL engines, there are a ton of brands... It's really less about the popularity of the "Nissan 200", and more about the popularity of the "200 Series Fusion Engines"... (Note - The following is from Objective Raids).

I've got only Praxton Fusion Products Limited in the P-OA manufacturing the Nissan 200, but you can still pick up a 200 series engine made by these guys;

GM (CC, FS)
Pitban (LC)
Magna (P-TC)

Meanwhile, you'll be able to find one in these units

Mechs: MON-67 Mongoose, CN9-A Centurion, ENF-4R Enforcer, HBK-4G Hunchback, TLS-1B Talos, ANH-1A Annihilator
Aerospace: TRN-3T Trident, RGU-133E Rogue, CSR-V12 Corsair, LTN-G15 Lightning, TR-10 Transit

Finally, I think you are mis-interpreting something... "are common in every House." or "found in every house" doesn't mean that they are produced in every house... It simply means that they have some in their arsenal... Which means sometimes you'd have to make a raid over the border to acquire the parts you needed.

Caz
« Last Edit: 19 July 2013, 11:11:21 by Cazaril »

hpackrat

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #76 on: 19 July 2013, 12:46:58 »
I'm not sure I totally agree. There is a way to determine brand items that are common to every House & that's to look for the megacorps that have branches in most if not all the Houses or which Houses manufacture the same machines like the bugmechs. Megacorps like Quikscell, Starcorps & Raimei will likely have parts available for their products in whatever House that a merc works in. I doubt the Parti-Kill PPC is only manufactured in LC & P-MC when Quikscell is so prevalent around the Sphere.

Admittedly, parts from common IS machines that have different manufactures likely focuses on parts compatibility rather that a specific brand. That means certain brand parts will be compatible when it comes to repairs...

Hmm, I just had a thought. Basic weapons can have different calibers & designs since they were developed by different manufacturers but Helm Core weapons all come from the same data. Doesn't that mean that all Helm Core weapons are inter-compatible regardless of manufacturer?

Moonsword

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #77 on: 19 July 2013, 16:57:30 »
Not necessarily, no.  You'd be amazed how differently vendors can interpret the same set of specifications.

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #78 on: 19 July 2013, 18:22:58 »
I'm not sure I totally agree. There is a way to determine brand items that are common to every House & that's to look for the megacorps that have branches in most if not all the Houses or which Houses manufacture the same machines like the bugmechs. Megacorps like Quikscell, Starcorps & Raimei will likely have parts available for their products in whatever House that a merc works in. I doubt the Parti-Kill PPC is only manufactured in LC & P-MC when Quikscell is so prevalent around the Sphere.

And according to Objective Raids, you'd be wrong...

I went through Objective Raids, and entered all the information into a spreadsheet... Faction, Planet, Company, Name of Component, Component Type, and Use (example: LC (Faction), Hesperus II (Planet), Defiance Industries of Hesperus II (Company), Defiance Killer (Name of Component), AC/10 (Component Type), Hatchetman (Use)... The spreadsheet has over 2000 entries (although some company/locations found to have been built after 3025 have been removed).

This gives me great flexibility in searching for stuff... Want to know who makes Stingers? Set the Sort to "Name of Component" (Mechs and other end products had their own listings as Components), "Faction", "Company". Then scroll down to the area were all the Stingers landed... Want all the manufactures of Stinger parts? Set the Sort to "Use", "Faction", "Company"... It's give you all the Stinger part manufacturers, while placing the Stingers themselves elsewhere (Under "Use", all Mechs are listed as "Mech")...

That is why it took me only about an hour between the post above it, and the one that talks about components... I spent time playing with the data, then typing it up... Which for me, was about an hour...

As to the companies you mentioned;

Quikscell: may have facilities all over, but they concern themselves primarily with Armor, Comm. Sys., Engine, Tar/Track Sys... Granted, they do make their own machine guns (20mm Gatling Gun), and they make the Crusher SH Cannon (AC/20) and Deleon 5 (AC/5) on Kalidasa... But they don't manufacturer any of the other weapons systems. Which suggests it is easier/cheaper for them to buy local for their other weaponry needs.

Starcorp: I have Starcorp on LC - Son Hoa - Refit and Repair, FS - Crofton - LGB-0W Longbow, and LC - Loburg - LGB-0W Longbow... But on review of Objective Raids, I can't refind the entry... Those could be additional notes from other sources.

Raimei: Who knows what they had, as they collapsed in 2814, which their holdings being picked up by; Jalastar Aerospace in the Federated Suns, Lockheed/CBM in the Lyran Commonwealth, Majesty Metals and Manufacturing in the Magistracy of Canopus, Pinard Protectorates Limited in the Taurian Concordat...

In all honesty, multi-house corporations are rare (using just Objective Raids), and I could only find the following;
Magna (FWL - Lopez, P-TC - Taurus)
Kallon Industries (CC - Nanking, FS - Kirklin, Talon, FWL - Asuncion, Bernardo, Loyalty, Thermopolis)
Earthwerks (CC - Grand Base, FWL - Asuncion, Bernardo, Calloway VI, Keystone)
Corean Enterprises (FS - New Avalon, FWL - Stewart)
Aldis (Terra, CC - Betelgeuse)
Quikscell (CC - Ares, FS - Layover, FWL - Kalidasa, Oliver, LC - Pandora)

Everyone else, while they may have more then one site, are all in one House or another.

For the most part, you see a single manufacturer using the same brand component, in a particular unit, even across houses, as long as they manufacture the component... But they don't always manufacture all the components. So Riflemans built by Kallon in the FWL seem to have imported (from Magna on Lopez) Magna Mk.II Medium Lasers, while those built in the FS seem to have imported (from Dynamico on Delavan) Martell Medium Lasers.

Caz

« Last Edit: 19 July 2013, 18:29:36 by Cazaril »

hpackrat

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #79 on: 20 July 2013, 01:34:49 »
Hmm, still, if they're using different brand components in the same design, that implies that those components are compatible which would ease maintenance issues. No need to raid for specific brand parts if a local component is a compatible substitute. Not sure this would apply to autocannons, missile launchers & their ammo though. Only armor, electronics & energy weapons. A FS CN9 Centurion isn't likely to find problems getting compatible parts in the FWL despite using different brand components.

Not necessarily, no.  You'd be amazed how differently vendors can interpret the same set of specifications.
Everybody still uses the same NATO calibers & AR15/M16 or AK parts tend to be cross-compatible despite different manufacturers. The manufacturers all used the same blueprints & were in a rush to sell SL weapons to their House Lords.

I doubt they had time to customize things though there might be problems with they had different measurement systems like when it came to the Russian centimeters adapting to American English inches.

Dreyf

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #80 on: 20 July 2013, 08:43:03 »
Remember that not everything would have been in the Helm core.  The Star League did not have the full range of weapons and each House would have designed their own to fill in the gaps.  Also having the same design built in different houses using different components does not mean that there are not differences in the manufacture to use a certain component that would make switching components problematic. 

IIRC there are also some mentions in the TROs of a component not working with a certain design and the manufacturer having to use another brand of the same component.

hpackrat

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #81 on: 20 July 2013, 13:14:27 »
Remember that not everything would have been in the Helm core.  The Star League did not have the full range of weapons and each House would have designed their own to fill in the gaps.  Also having the same design built in different houses using different components does not mean that there are not differences in the manufacture to use a certain component that would make switching components problematic. 
Then what weapon technologies did come from the Helm core? I was under the impression that ERPPC, GR, LBX, Ult5, ERLL & pulse lasers were all created form the blueprints found in the core. I can't see the Houses changing the original working designs when they had yet little experience with them.

IIRC there are also some mentions in the TROs of a component not working with a certain design and the manufacturer having to use another brand of the same component.
They still shoehorned a different component into design. That means they either changed the design, adapted the component, or that the component is compatible with design. Thus having a list of the most commonly available & compatible components around the Sphere would be a god-sent to any merc astech trying to repair or rebuild a machine.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #82 on: 20 July 2013, 13:52:45 »
Take a look at the images in 3050U.  Start off with the UrbanMech and the Hatchetman.  Both mount an LBX-10, which was recovered from SL data.

Do those weapon mounts look ANYTHING alike?

Then compare the arm-mounted Ultra-5s of the JagerMech to the chest-mounted Ultra-5 of  the Hermes II.

Sorry, these weapons are not constructed identically.

Cazaril

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #83 on: 20 July 2013, 14:24:44 »
Then what weapon technologies did come from the Helm core? I was under the impression that ERPPC, GR, LBX, Ult5, ERLL & pulse lasers were all created form the blueprints found in the core.

I would be willing to bet theory and mathematical equation, over straight up blue-print. So each manufacturer interpreted the information differently.

As to the rest of your questions..

I think this is one of those areas that BT simplified things, but reality would stop you cold.

I'll use engines (which I just asked about) as an example... According to Xotl (Rules Questions » TechManual (Moderator: Xotl))

I asked about swapping engines across type of vehicle.

"This is possible, but the following aspects must be exactly the same between units:

engine rating, engine type, heat sink type, and unit tonnage

So you could transfer a 200 Fusion with double heat sinks from one unit to another, as long as both units weighed the same (50-ton aero to a 50-ton tank, for instance)."

You try that in real life, and see how well that works... Because your Mazda engine is going to take some effort to make it work with that Ford over there... If it will even work at all...

And that isn't even the worst... Any part of the 'Mech, if built in real life, would probably NOT be compatible with any other 'Mech (hell, they'd probably, eventually do a different production model, and the old and the new ones wouldn't work together)..

Plus, could you imagine the logistical nightmare!?.. Most people like a extremely mixed unit, seldomly repeating the same mech in the same company... Could you image the record keeping if you had even just a company, with all different Mechs? Keeping track of each brand of armor. Heat sinks. Actuators. Mynomers. Internal Structure... The list goes on and on...

So BT simplified it, and said "Just buy points of repair armor"... "A large laser is a large laser is a large laser"...

But the fluff says differently, but the fluff is not game rules.

As to different components being used... I'd say that the end unit (Rifleman, Stinger, Wasp, Whatever) has been subtly redesigned to accommodate the new weapon manufacturer, and the production facility retooled... To replace that weapon with another brand, would require more time then replacing it with the same one... Think: Not as bad as changing the weapon to a different type, but worse then a straight swap...

Or, you can believe that the weapons manufacturer redesigned the weapon, so that it fits that unit. Kind of like an off-brand part for your car. It meets all the specs, and works just as good, but it's not a generic part... I think this would be more of a hassle, as the "Magna MkII" would now be a "Magna Mk.II - Rifleman"...

Either way, you are going to end up doing a lot more record keeping then if you just went with BT's simpler version... Although it would be more "realistic".

Caz
« Last Edit: 20 July 2013, 14:27:49 by Cazaril »

hpackrat

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #84 on: 22 July 2013, 06:19:32 »
Role-playing is gonna be a bitch, I see...

Sigma

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #85 on: 22 July 2013, 07:21:35 »
That's how I read it.

That said, Objectives Raids is a little hit-and-miss, and later sources like TRO 3039 make no reference to production of either 'mech on St. Ives at that point (3039).  The later Handbook: House Liao (Circa 3067) lists the Blackjack as being produced there.  It's cloudy as usual ;)


That's kind of a misnomer. The BJ-3 line was retooled in 3066 to make Phoenix Hawk 4L's. The Blackjacks are a separate BJ-O line apparently, though I could have sworn the only BJ-O plant they had was on Warlock. It pops up in both the Handbook and in the end-Jihad Objectives for the Caps.

This doesn't make sense for the year since Irian doesn't license out the BJ-O to Ceres until 3072 after they buy LAW's half of the rights.

Hayden.

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #86 on: 22 July 2013, 09:24:51 »

That's kind of a misnomer. The BJ-3 line was retooled in 3066 to make Phoenix Hawk 4L's. The Blackjacks are a separate BJ-O line apparently, though I could have sworn the only BJ-O plant they had was on Warlock. It pops up in both the Handbook and in the end-Jihad Objectives for the Caps.

This doesn't make sense for the year since Irian doesn't license out the BJ-O to Ceres until 3072 after they buy LAW's half of the rights.

Yeah, but that's getting a bit further down the timeline, as the post is talking about 3025 production.  I was intending to establish the fact that the Blackjack was in fact in production on St. Ives.  Now, in response to your claim I checked out Objective Raids: Capellan Confederation (which is current to 3079) and that book lists the Blackjack as being in production on St. Ives, and the Blackjack OmniMech as being in production on Warlock.  So it would suggest that St. Ives is still producing the BJ-3?

Anyway, I dug a little deeper and pulled out TRO 3058 and found that the rights to the Blackjack originally came to LAW from Ceres St. Ives*, and that LAW initially manufactured BJ-2s until the plant was retooled to produce the BJ2-O, and then later LAW distributed the rights to Irian.  I'm not sure about Ceres Metals Works in the Confederation, but it seems that Ceres St. Ives* was producing the BJ2-O somewhere in the St. Ives Compact during this time, and splitting that production between themselves and the Fed Suns.  Anyway, if you want to talk about this some more please feel free to PM me, I don't want to wreak this thread by taking it wildly off-topic :)

Cazaril, the thread's yours.
Hayden

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #87 on: 25 January 2014, 04:40:54 »

In all honesty, multi-house corporations are rare (using just Objective Raids), and I could only find the following;
Magna (FWL - Lopez, P-TC - Taurus)
Kallon Industries (CC - Nanking, FS - Kirklin, Talon, FWL - Asuncion, Bernardo, Loyalty, Thermopolis)
Earthwerks (CC - Grand Base, FWL - Asuncion, Bernardo, Calloway VI, Keystone)
Corean Enterprises (FS - New Avalon, FWL - Stewart)
Aldis (Terra, CC - Betelgeuse)
Quikscell (CC - Ares, FS - Layover, FWL - Kalidasa, Oliver, LC - Pandora)

Everyone else, while they may have more then one site, are all in one House or another.


You missed a couple - Nimakatchi (FWL - Dalton, Tematagi + DC - Lapida II )
and
ATC (Alphard Trading Co) has a plant in the TC and part ownership on the Kendall plant in the FWL


Free Worlds League – House Marik


Stewart
Corean Enterprises
- HM:FWL 3025
* GOL-1H Goliath
* TBT-5N Trebuchet
* LCT-1V Locust
- TRO:3039
* GOL-1H Goliath
* TBT-5N Trebuchet
- Objective Raids
* GOL-1H Goliath
* TBT-5N Trebuchet
* LCT-1V Locust


Also the Gotha is produced on Stewart, since 3019
(described in TRO 3075)
Agent #395, Vancouver, Canada

Dmon

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #88 on: 25 January 2014, 06:59:21 »
Thoughts on using Sarna.net as a source...
While I've used Sarna for a few things, this is not an adequate source, because I'm found that they will condense stuff (example - Entry "CN9-A Centurion", states "Demand for the Centurion was so pitched in the AFFS, Corean Enterprises licensed the CN9-A to Jalastar Aerospace on Panpour in 3047", and they cite Technical Readout: 3050, p. 116, and Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade, p. 54 for this... Now I can't comment on TRO:3050U, but TRO:3050 say "Corean Enterprises has recently begun production of the model CN9-D Centurion at its New Avalon factory, and retooling is proceeding feverishly at Jalastar Aerospace's Centurion plant on Panpour."... And those two things do not mean the same thing... The way I read it, JA was retooling their Centurion line to produce the CN9-D, not retooling to start production of Centurions... Add to that, the fact that House Davion-The Federated Suns lists the Centurion as a Jalastar product in 3025 AND in is listed in Objective Raids as a Jalastar product... It means Sarna is a bit unreliable.

Very nice work man, a note on using Sarna as a source though.. Spot a mistake or something that is a bit vague chip in and contribute. This whole project of yours is the kind of thing that would improve the wiki massively.

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Re: Need help with Industry in 3025
« Reply #89 on: 25 January 2014, 20:03:52 »
Take a look at the images in 3050U.  Start off with the UrbanMech and the Hatchetman.  Both mount an LBX-10, which was recovered from SL data.

Do those weapon mounts look ANYTHING alike?

Then compare the arm-mounted Ultra-5s of the JagerMech to the chest-mounted Ultra-5 of  the Hermes II.

Sorry, these weapons are not constructed identically.

lets look at this from a Real World perspective when it comes to products and varients of products. As a GSE mechanic, the most common size tire used on US Navy Aviation Support equipment was a size 6.00/9. Now if i ran the SE Tire shop, then if that size tire is the most common size used in rebuilding SE Tire & Wheel assemblies, then why do i have order a dozen or more different Part Number/Cage Number/NIIN's? because though the size specs are the same, does not mean the product is the same or that one wheel assembly is interchangeable from one type of SE from another. A wheel assembly from a NC-10C MEPP can not be used on a NET-4 Engine Trailer. or a Tire from a A/S32A-32 Spotting Dolly cannot be used on a F-14. in Battletech mechanics, the same concept applies... maybe. and your right in your comparison between machines: the weapon will be assembled differently. but there is nothing that says you couldnt replace one manufacture type with another. making it work, is part of the time consumed in swapping one with another...

 

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