Author Topic: Blaine's Latest Blog  (Read 206769 times)

Atlas3060

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #150 on: 15 January 2012, 13:14:47 »
It's little nuggets like this and Rome's blog on the Wars of Reaving which show why I love this Universe and it's authors!

Quote
Thus the concept of Trent was born in a hotel restaurant in Milwaukee.
I bet the concepts of many kids were born in a hotel restaurant in Milwaukee.   ;D

Honestly as cool this sounds I liked Trent as he was.  The guy got screwed over and his bosses paid for it.  Honor can only go so far in life before your demons take over.  Grey leaving like that sounds more like a wimper than a bang to me, but I guess its because I do love how he died.  Every now and then a leader needs to die a human death: family surrounding you, peaceful (well sort of), and just... go.

Wolf's death was appropriate, Hanse's made sense, Melissa's was tragic, and Grey's was the most human.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #151 on: 15 January 2012, 14:49:35 »
Who's Grey? Mistyped Grayson?
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #152 on: 15 January 2012, 16:06:09 »
Grey Noton?

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #153 on: 15 January 2012, 17:09:08 »
honestly, i think the version we got, even with all its flaws, is the better story.

i mean, hijacking a warship, that just happens to have the entire route to the homeworlds in it, then figuring out that all the clans (most of which hate each others guts) all miraculously just have one spot in common they're all willing to work together for, then oh hey lets just drop a few RCT's to hold this one spot in a honorless non-zellbregin assualt, then hold off the entire clans because they'll fight using honor and shit that removes all their advantages. then despite the fact even the most honorable clans have been shown to lie, cheat and fight dirty when faced with such situations in previous books, they'll all just march in to be slaughtered until they sue for peace.

[metalhealth] [metalhealth] [metalhealth] [metalhealth] [metalhealth]

it sounds like the kind of overly simplistic deus ex machina i would have writen in junior high.

the version we got is much more grounded in reality. you have an idealistic clansman who grows disaffected with how clan society is evolving. which makes him fertile ground for an Ex-comstar agent to turn. the IS finally gets its act together and figures out that with the truce almost over, they gotta hang together or they certainly will hang seperately, and lacking any better framework, invent a new star league to make teamwork an easier sell. (and the power politics over who will lead it and what they can do being a big issue). since the clans respect power, a demonstration campaign plan with the destruction of an entire OZ becomes the destruction of an entire clan once the comstar info is applied, a much more effective demonstration anyway. resulting in a two pronged operation (serpent and bulldog), which shows the IS is not the pushover it was 15 years before. using that lesson to get the rest of the clans to pay attention, they then arrange the trial of refusal, where the IS not only shows they can kick ass using the clans own restrictive rules, but can also play clan style politics. the end result being the total shattering of the clans assumption of military superiority.

narratively it's a more sensible story.
politically it's a more sensible story.
strategically it's a more sensible story.
and setting background wise  it's a more sensible story.

about the only thing i'd have wanted to see from the original pitch as described in the blog was the bit about Greyson caryle getting so horrified by the type of warfare he was forced to conduct that he retires. frankly, adding the Grey Death Legion to operation bulldog (not serpent, they already had the knights of the inner sphere to take on that narrative role, although they were not really used for that purpose), and growing so upset that he disbands his unit after the OZ is retaken and 'walks off into the sunset' (retires to a world as a private citizen and is never heard from again)

thus making a great ending for the grey death series of novels, while leaving an opening for a 'new grey death legion' under one or more of the old hands to spring up later if so desired by the sourcebook writers, basically rebooting the GDL into a much less munchkinistic form.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2012, 19:27:25 by glitterboy2098 »

Atlas3060

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #154 on: 15 January 2012, 19:25:29 »
Who's Grey? Mistyped Grayson?
yeah sorry  :-[
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #155 on: 15 January 2012, 22:13:38 »
honestly, i think the version we got, even with all its flaws, is the better story.

Agreed. Holding the Genetic Legacy hostage? You'd see a reaction from the Clans on par with finding the folks guarding said Legacy were all Wolverines.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #156 on: 16 January 2012, 04:31:13 »
I think I like how Exodus Road officially ended up being better than the idea of just stealing a warship.  I think you did a great job with that story, and it's my favorite of the entire Twilight arc.  I do, however, prefer Bill's idea for killing the GDL much, much more than what we got.  Grayson walking off into the jungle never to be seen again is a much better send off!  And Trent.  I never liked that scene with Victor and Trent, it's one of the weakest and most out-of-character scenes in all of Battletech canon.  I look forward to seeing something more on Trent!
+1 to all this.

Question to Mr. Pardoe: the groundwork for it being Smoke Jaguar seems to have been laid in several books, over the course of years before this storyline.  About how long in terms of years was the time frame from officially deciding to kill the Jags, until this storyline began?
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #157 on: 16 January 2012, 22:46:39 »
I think I like how Exodus Road officially ended up being better than the idea of just stealing a warship.

Agreed.  As a fan of the Clans, I might be a bit biased- but the paranoid nature of them breaking up the route seems to fit them much better- even with their superiority complex.

Afterall, wasn't it paranoia that triggered the the invasion when Comstar found them?  Was that already fleshed out- it doesn't make much sense for them to be so fearful that the I.S is coming out of the dark ages without them and worry about being discovered...only to have their route sitting there in any ships' computer.

And Trent.  I never liked that scene with Victor and Trent, it's one of the weakest and most out-of-character scenes in all of Battletech canon.  I look forward to seeing something more on Trent!

This too.

No offense to M. Stackpole, but that scene always leaves me scratching my head.  Victor trusts Phelan- who did help the enemy, and is showing more and more Clan-like behavior.  I mean, sure, he's a cousin...but he's not *that* close, and we've got Kat looking to stab Vic in the back already.

Trent then helps the I.S put a halt to the invasion, and Victor turns up his nose, because he thinks Trent will turn around and betray them to the Clans eventually...huh?

I mean, I suppose you could argue that Phelan gave him an example of always being with your own people in the end- and he could be distrustful with Kat but...still.  It was far too cold. Especially as the Jags are now gone.

I mean if there was a time for Trent to ultimately side with the Clans in the end- it was long gone by that point.

Sorry Blaine- I like your work.  I don't really agree with everything in BoI, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the actual writing and I've enjoyed Exodus Road and the Comstar themed MWDA novel a great deal.

That being said, I don't agree with the single repository idea.  The Clans are supposed to be fragemented- splitting up the repositories makes a lot more sense.  Besides, with something so sacred, I don't think it makes as much sense as a 'long term solution' like the Great Refusal does.  And if I'm misunderstanding, and the black mail was an attempt to force a Great Refusal...I think ultimately that just gives the Crusaders more 'ammo' down the road to argue that the Trial wasn't legitimate once the Star League collapses in the Jihad (or even before then).

I prefer the way it went down.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #158 on: 17 January 2012, 00:06:48 »
The reaction to Trent is particularly vexing when you recall, there were Nova Cats in the room.  A whole Clan that betrayed the Clans.  He seemed to get along fine with them.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #159 on: 17 January 2012, 08:05:07 »
...of course you could have gone for the Trifecta and launched your assault after stealing the map from the Clans, stolen General Kerensky’s flagship (McKenna’s Pride), stuffed the good General's ashes into his Orion -with- a nuclear bomb and launched them sub-orbitally straight down into the Clans's central genetic repository.

Then again, that might upset them.   O:-)
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #160 on: 17 January 2012, 11:12:26 »
The reaction to Trent is particularly vexing when you recall, there were Nova Cats in the room.  A whole Clan that betrayed the Clans.  He seemed to get along fine with them.

yes and no.. Trent basically turned because he didn't like how clan society was being 'corrupted' by inner Sphere influence, which opened him up to be manipulated. (though much of what he disliked seems to have existed prior to the invasion, if the jade phoenix trilogy is accurate.) Phelan and the novacats both were "reformists" in that regard, while Trent was more of a conservative reactionary forced to make the devils deal. both Phelan and the nova cats saw closer ties with the IS, and the resulting cultural change, as a positive thing. (IMO, the only reason Trent accepted the Novacat 'offer' was the fact the novacats still held something close to his own perception of clan honor)

that said, the scene certainly wasn't handled well.

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #161 on: 17 January 2012, 14:18:45 »
The reaction to Trent is particularly vexing when you recall, there were Nova Cats in the room.  A whole Clan that betrayed the Clans.  He seemed to get along fine with them.

It was also problematic when you consider Victor's statement of "I'm not going to let random people fight in my command force just because they ask" even though Danai Centrella got in for apparently no other reason (which is why I suspect there was a set of handcuffs and a ball gag involved).
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #162 on: 17 January 2012, 17:48:46 »
I really appreciate any of these behind-the-scenes looks, so thank you very much for taking the time to write it up.

If I may ask, why did Bill want to kill off his own group?  It's not unthinkable than an author would want to kill his own baby, but at the same time it's an interesting choice, and I was wondering if you'd be willing to share anything on this?
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #163 on: 17 January 2012, 18:07:14 »
It was also problematic when you consider Victor's statement of "I'm not going to let random people fight in my command force just because they ask" even though Danai Centrella got in for apparently no other reason (which is why I suspect there was a set of handcuffs and a ball gag involved).

He wanted to impress the Magistracy of Canopus and keep them from getting closer to the CC.  He planned on doing this by making sure their heir-designate was in the line of fire, rather than the one that was all pro-Capellan.

Victor may be the dumbest person.


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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #164 on: 17 January 2012, 18:15:04 »
I still say that there were kinky persuasion techniques involved.

But more on topic, I'm glad to hear that there's plans for fleshing out what really happened to Trent.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #165 on: 17 January 2012, 20:25:29 »
+1 to all this.

Question to Mr. Pardoe: the groundwork for it being Smoke Jaguar seems to have been laid in several books, over the course of years before this storyline.  About how long in terms of years was the time frame from officially deciding to kill the Jags, until this storyline began?

Well, the Jags certainly ticked off a lot of people early on.  They didn't score points for style.  Having said that, I remember having the book done in about four months after GenCon - and it was out in a nother five.  Typical lead-time. 

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #166 on: 17 January 2012, 20:27:37 »
honestly, i think the version we got, even with all its flaws, is the better story.

i mean, hijacking a warship, that just happens to have the entire route to the homeworlds in it, then figuring out that all the clans (most of which hate each others guts) all miraculously just have one spot in common they're all willing to work together for, then oh hey lets just drop a few RCT's to hold this one spot in a honorless non-zellbregin assualt, then hold off the entire clans because they'll fight using honor and shit that removes all their advantages. then despite the fact even the most honorable clans have been shown to lie, cheat and fight dirty when faced with such situations in previous books, they'll all just march in to be slaughtered until they sue for peace.

[metalhealth] [metalhealth] [metalhealth] [metalhealth] [metalhealth]

it sounds like the kind of overly simplistic deus ex machina i would have writen in junior high.

the version we got is much more grounded in reality. you have an idealistic clansman who grows disaffected with how clan society is evolving. which makes him fertile ground for an Ex-comstar agent to turn. the IS finally gets its act together and figures out that with the truce almost over, they gotta hang together or they certainly will hang seperately, and lacking any better framework, invent a new star league to make teamwork an easier sell. (and the power politics over who will lead it and what they can do being a big issue). since the clans respect power, a demonstration campaign plan with the destruction of an entire OZ becomes the destruction of an entire clan once the comstar info is applied, a much more effective demonstration anyway. resulting in a two pronged operation (serpent and bulldog), which shows the IS is not the pushover it was 15 years before. using that lesson to get the rest of the clans to pay attention, they then arrange the trial of refusal, where the IS not only shows they can kick ass using the clans own restrictive rules, but can also play clan style politics. the end result being the total shattering of the clans assumption of military superiority.

narratively it's a more sensible story.
politically it's a more sensible story.
strategically it's a more sensible story.
and setting background wise  it's a more sensible story.

about the only thing i'd have wanted to see from the original pitch as described in the blog was the bit about Greyson caryle getting so horrified by the type of warfare he was forced to conduct that he retires. frankly, adding the Grey Death Legion to operation bulldog (not serpent, they already had the knights of the inner sphere to take on that narrative role, although they were not really used for that purpose), and growing so upset that he disbands his unit after the OZ is retaken and 'walks off into the sunset' (retires to a world as a private citizen and is never heard from again)

thus making a great ending for the grey death series of novels, while leaving an opening for a 'new grey death legion' under one or more of the old hands to spring up later if so desired by the sourcebook writers, basically rebooting the GDL into a much less munchkinistic form.

I think overall, as a "series" within a series, Twilight came off just great.  I like Trent a great deal.  Yeah, my original thinking was probably too simplistic...I'll admit it.  At least you guys got to see how we went about some of the thinking that went into the series. 

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #167 on: 17 January 2012, 21:07:32 »
It was also problematic when you consider Victor's statement of "I'm not going to let random people fight in my command force just because they ask" even though Danai Centrella got in for apparently no other reason (which is why I suspect there was a set of handcuffs and a ball gag involved).

Nova Cats bring a full Clan basically obedient to the New Star League with a massive force to call upon. Danai Centrella  feeling a bond with the Fed Suns could upset the growing relations between the MoC and Confederation.

What further would Trent bring? They already got the route and intel. There is no further use for him.

No, its not nice. Its realpolitik.

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #168 on: 18 January 2012, 00:31:01 »
Oh, I can totally understand why Victor wouldn't want someone like Trent in his command during the fight.  My problem was that there didn't seem to be sufficiently strong justification for including Dania.

Well, that and how predetermined some of the fights were- the Comstar/Jade Falcon one in particular seemed more like Comstar was being offered up as a sacrifice than a credible attempt to fight, given the force imbalances.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #169 on: 18 January 2012, 02:53:20 »
Oh, I can totally understand why Victor wouldn't want someone like Trent in his command during the fight.  My problem was that there didn't seem to be sufficiently strong justification for including Dania.

There's plenty of strong justification given in the novels. It was political. She could be a hero to the Magistracy by her participation in the Great Refusal. She could also possibly serve as a focus of resistance to Sun-Tzu's influence over her nation when they return. What more justification is needed than that?

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #170 on: 18 January 2012, 03:08:43 »
I don't know.  It just felt contrived to me when I read it.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #171 on: 18 January 2012, 03:31:10 »
Might have benefited by having her involvement in the book be something more than "we lost Danae."
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #172 on: 18 January 2012, 03:48:33 »
I really appreciate any of these behind-the-scenes looks, so thank you very much for taking the time to write it up.

If I may ask, why did Bill want to kill off his own group?  It's not unthinkable than an author would want to kill his own baby, but at the same time it's an interesting choice, and I was wondering if you'd be willing to share anything on this?

It may be that he didn't want to keep writing, but at the same time, didn't want anyone else to write about the GDL. Makes sense in a way, and in addition, he may have wanted to keep them as a relic of the Succession Wars, since their stories always seemed rather small scale (the Helm Core excepted).
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #173 on: 18 January 2012, 04:02:27 »
Might have benefited by having her involvement in the book be something more than "we lost Danae."

Yeah, it's hard to see the decision as anything but "I got the anti-Capellan daughter killed and made the pro-Capellan one heir" when her first mention is like two pages before she gets killed off-screen.


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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #174 on: 18 January 2012, 04:47:44 »
It may be that he didn't want to keep writing, but at the same time, didn't want anyone else to write about the GDL. Makes sense in a way, and in addition, he may have wanted to keep them as a relic of the Succession Wars, since their stories always seemed rather small scale (the Helm Core excepted).

Well, it may have been one of any number of things, but only Keith and those he talked to know for sure.  I'm hoping to hear about it, since the GDL was such a big part of Battletech history.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #175 on: 18 January 2012, 22:38:15 »
Going down fighting the Clans on the Clan's home turf would have been a much better end for the GDL. At least their entire command staff wouldn't have had the frontal lobotomy they apparently received en route to Hesperus II.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #176 on: 19 January 2012, 01:24:09 »
Yeah, it's hard to see the decision as anything but "I got the anti-Capellan daughter killed and made the pro-Capellan one heir" when her first mention is like two pages before she gets killed off-screen.

Ah the wonders of limits on word counts, it made Prince of Havoc seem like it was constantly moving at the pace of a toddler.

Might have benefited by having her involvement in the book be something more than "we lost Danae."

You mean Sappo, right? Honestly, the real issue is that it's an oddly placed. Victor just got done talking about how he couldn't do political moves like giving the Genyosha the fight against the Jaguars. And then he does that with her dying.

That ended well for Vic as everyone said. As it has been said, Victor really stunk at politics.

Well, the Jags certainly ticked off a lot of people early on.  They didn't score points for style.  Having said that, I remember having the book done in about four months after GenCon - and it was out in a nother five.  Typical lead-time. 

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So, was it planed before or after Impetus of War that the Jaguars were the targets for annihilation?

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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #177 on: 19 January 2012, 01:45:12 »
From that timeline it would have to be after.
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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #178 on: 19 January 2012, 06:17:19 »
Going down fighting the Clans on the Clan's home turf would have been a much better end for the GDL. At least their entire command staff wouldn't have had the frontal lobotomy they apparently received en route to Hesperus II.

Come on, their entire system was to assume Grayson would get them out of everything.  They probably should have just given up when he got the cancer.


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Re: The Twilight of the Clans that never was...
« Reply #179 on: 19 January 2012, 07:00:39 »
Come on, their entire system was to assume Grayson would get them out of everything.  They probably should have just given up when he got the cancer.

I heartily disagree with your blanket statement.

Grayson actually built a command staff for the GDL. It was completely missing from The Dying Time and its presence should almost certainly have prevented their chief disaster on Hesperus (the monorail ambush) because someone would have pointed pout the glaring lack of security at such a major and vulnerable common military manuever i.e. the rail movement of the Regiment.

I'd be glad to discuss it from a military standpoint if you like but we shoyuld do so in another thread. :)
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