Liberation of Coventry - Sept 14, Tempe, AZ

[Hellraiser]

Getting C3 working in an ECM/ECCM heavy environment takes more planning than playing a fast 'mech well, in that you sometimes need to be thinking more than just one round ahead for where ECCM will be needed (and in what numbers) to keep your spotting links open. 

Agreed

So long as you bring enough ECCM, C3/C3I is correctly pointed as-is.

I'll continue to disagree there.
I don't think all the ECCM in the world makes 60% cost for a full C3 Company worth it.
Even in an ECMless fight where C3 would never be disrupted it still not going to always be giving you that max -4 to hit.
There are plenty of times where you'd only get the -2 or even a 0 mod.
For 60% BV I can ALWAYS have a 1 Gunner in every single unit on the board, including the spotters who never get C3 benefits.
Meanwhile I can get some modifier even if its only -2 on a 2 man unit or 3 man unit at only 10% & 15% of the total force respectively.  Quite a bit cheaper than the 40% BV cost of a 2-Gunner.

I'd be interested in seeing some test fights using no ECM at all and comparing identical sized forces in # of units & BV but having 1 invest in improved gunners v/s the other investing in C3.  I honestly think the full formation of better gunners won't leave most spotters alive long enough to spot well.  And of course C3 looses most of its effetiveness once the merge happens & the lines are at close/melee range.  Hmm, this might be a project for a megamech bot v/s bot fight.

[Jim1701]

Actually a full company would cost you 37.5% of your BV rather than 60%.  For 20,000 BV you would have an average unit costs of 1041.67 BV, the surcharge for each unit would be 625 BV.  The surcharge does equal about 60% the average cost of units but that is not the same as 60% of the force. 

A 6 unit force of C3i would cost about 23.08% of the total BV while a 4 unit force uses 16.67%.

The percentage of the total will hold steady regardless of pilot skill though the total amount available as part of a set BV will go down since you have to divert points to pay for the skills so the total surcharge will go down too.  Pilot skills are paid for AFTER the C3 network is paid for so pilot skills do not affect the surcharge directly. 

[Jim1701]

Assuming Exactly 5K forces should give you 8182 BV in Combat Unit BV + 1818 BV in C3 Network + Link Fee.
I've got that coming to 454.5 average cost per unit.

The same 8182 force as a single force of linked C3 would cost 1636.  So agreed a little more expensive Joel's way.

But, if 3 forces link up its also cheaper.
Triple 5K force = 12273 Combat Unit BV + 2727 C3 Cost as 3 separate teams w/ the 10% link fee.
The same 12,273 Force linked as 6 units would cost 3682 BV for C3 link.

Unless you are working off different assumptions your numbers cannot be right.  Giving a BV total of 10,000 the average unit cost will be 2,083 each for 4 units for a total unit cost of 8,332.  Take 5% of that to get approximately 417 BV per unit surcharge.  Add 2083 + 417 = 2500.  Multiply by 4 units and you have your 10,000 BV.

Also, the flat fee is more expensive than paying the actual costs.  In the example above each player with 2 units each would pay 834 BV for their half of the network (417 BV / unit) for a total of 1668 BV in C3 costs.  Using the flat fee method my actual costs are cut in half because I'm just linking my 2 units but I have to reserve 500 BV to link with the other player.  By the same token he has to reserve 500 BV to link with me.  Assuming 2 units each and spending the max possible on units (no skill upgrades) each of us can spend an average of 2,045 BV per unit with a surcharge of 204.55 BV per unit.  That means the 2 of use are paying a total surcharge of 409.1 + 500 = 909.1 BV each to link our forces for a total of 1,818.2 BV. 

That means we are paying approximately an extra 150 BV total (75 BV each) using the flat fee method under these parameters.  It gets worse too if one player decides to divert points towards skill points or non-C3 units as that means his C3 force is cheaper but you are still paying 500 BV.  It also gets worse when you add more players though I am assuming each player has to pay 500 BV for each other player in the network. Under that scenario each player would have to pay an average of about 1,364 BV (or 210 BV extra) using the flat fee method over calculating the actual costs.  If each player is only paying a total of 500 BV regardless of the number of players in the network then yes, the discount would be about 250 BV per player rather than a 210 BV deficit.

Using the flat fee method is not a huge increase but if you already thinking you are paying too much for C3 then it could be a problem for you. 

 

Agreed on the Non-C3 units part, but, I'm not sure what you mean by the skills part.  Skills affect the C3 cost, or C3 affects skills cost, I forget the order but the end result is your paying the skill multiplier for the C3 so it should be the same %.

Order of operation for calculating the BV of a force is TAG first, C3 second, pilot skills third and finally FSM if used.  So as I mentioned before skills only affect how many points are available for the base force but does not directly affect the cost of C3.  If I had 10k to spend and I want to use 1000 points on skill upgrades during skill assignment then I can only spend a total of 9000 on the actual force including C3 costs when building the initial force.


Note:  If anyone see anything that looks like a mistake just let me know.  I'm pretty sure my numbers are correct though as I've been playing with them for the last couple days. 

[Hellraiser]

Actually a full company would cost you 37.5% of your BV rather than 60%.  For 20,000 BV you would have an average unit costs of 1041.67 BV, the surcharge for each unit would be 625 BV.  The surcharge does equal about 60% the average cost of units but that is not the same as 60% of the force.   

Hmm.  Okay, maybe I'm not doing C3 correctly but I thought I was.
If I start with X BV, and it doesn't matter what X is but for this example lets go the 20K you mentioned but use that as Base BV.
20K in Combat Units.   x.05%  =  1000 BV   x12 Units  =  12000BV.     12K / 20K = 60%
So to link an entire company will cost you 60% of the value of that company w/o C3.

But I see what your saying, your looking at % of the total as portion of C3 where I'm saying cost above base, but in the end the C3 cost is the same.

[Jim1701]

I see what you are saying but the way you are saying it makes it incorrect.  A company's worth is an INCREASE of 60% but the cost is NOT 60% of the total cost.  That is two different things entirely.  Both mean the same thing when stated in the correct context but you are taking the first number and using it in the context of the second number. 

If I take and make all my pilots 2/4 in a 20k base force I will end up paying 32,200 BV total.  That is an increase of 61% but that amount of BV I am paying for skill upgrades is about 37.89% of the total cost.