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Author Topic: Re-engineered Lasers  (Read 11490 times)

AJC46

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Re-engineered Lasers
« on: 13 September 2013, 02:29:10 »
so now that we know the rules for these who wants to use these now.

to me they seem a better deal vs standard lasers by the fact they burn thru ferro-lam hardened and laser-reflect armors has if they are normal armor and worth the increased weight over standard lasers and they deal a extra point of damage over standard models too.


now the question is will we get Re-engineered Pulse Lasers in the future?

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #1 on: 13 September 2013, 02:42:20 »
I'm not sure the small or medium ones are worth it compared to just taking more regular lasers.  Anybody run the numbers yet on 2 ReMLs vs 5 MLs?
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Yeti

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #2 on: 13 September 2013, 05:06:28 »
I just run the number, the only RE laser that seems worth taking is the large,  medium and small get a very small advantage against reflective armor but lose against all other types.

Code: [Select]
Small Lasers
comparison 1 RE vs 3 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE      1.5t             1          5
std     1.5t             3          3

damage against different armor types
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                  4                        4                     4             4
std                 9                        3                     6             4.5

Code: [Select]
Medium Lasers
comparison 2 RE vs 5 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE       5t              4         14
std      5t              5         15

damage against different armor types
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                 12                       12                    12             12
std                25                       10                    20            12.5

Code: [Select]
Large Lasers
comparison 5 RE vs 8 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE       40t             10        50
std      40t             16        64

damage against different armor types
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                 45                       45                    45             45
std                64                       32                    48             32

faraday77

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #3 on: 13 September 2013, 05:32:52 »
My 2 cents? They're alright but I won't use them much.

They're specialist weapons, best used on dedicated platforms thanks to their weight, bulk and range brackets. Heat ist not too bad.

One can either use a battery of standard lasers like srm/cluster or - depending on availability - heavy lasers with tc or improved heavy lasers. Sure, the weight savings will get eaten up by the needed heat sinks but I got more firepower against anything on the field that doesn't sport one of those three fancy armours.

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Yeti

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #4 on: 13 September 2013, 05:45:21 »
I think one use might be in Aerotech.
With reflective armor becoming more common on aerospace fighters, I think using the large (and maybe the medium) RE laser might be ok, because doing all damage in hit gives you better treshold chances than a cluster of std lasers.

CloaknDagger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #5 on: 13 September 2013, 09:48:25 »
RE Lasers really need a buff.

Fragger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #6 on: 13 September 2013, 09:51:37 »
I'm cool with them on Omnimechs, they seem like a perfect weapon for special occasions and that's exactly where Omnis shine. But I don't think the should be installed on regular Battlemechs as they are just too limited in utility.

faraday77

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #7 on: 13 September 2013, 10:33:10 »
RE Lasers really need a buff.

No, they don't. They're not meant to be the new 'standard models' of the IS and most units on the field still don't use one of the annoying armors.
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Stinger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #8 on: 13 September 2013, 12:11:45 »
Well, ER: 3145 said that they shoot in 2 nearly instantaneous pulses.  It would be awesome if they got a -1 hit rating or something like that. 

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #9 on: 13 September 2013, 12:16:34 »
Indeed.  That would go a long way to making them worth it.  Especially if they also killed more infantry (even if only a few more like VSPLs).
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #10 on: 13 September 2013, 12:34:03 »
You shouldn't be comparing these to standard lasers.  Compare them to IS Pulse lasers, since that's what they're based on.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #11 on: 13 September 2013, 12:36:57 »
They don't get the pulse bonus though.  They're basically normal lasers that ignore special armors.  Even their range brackets are identical to standard lasers (or XPLs, I suppose).
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faraday77

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #12 on: 13 September 2013, 12:41:31 »
Well, ER: 3145 said that they shoot in 2 nearly instantaneous pulses.  It would be awesome if they got a -1 hit rating or something like that.

...and the books tells you in the same sentence why thats not going to happen. Again, those are NOT the new standard lasers of the IS.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #13 on: 13 September 2013, 12:44:02 »
They don't get the pulse bonus though.  They're basically normal lasers that ignore special armors.  Even their range brackets are identical to standard lasers (or XPLs, I suppose).

Of course not.  They get improved range compared to the pulse lasers they're based on.

GreekFire

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #14 on: 13 September 2013, 12:51:27 »
Of course not.  They get improved range compared to the pulse lasers they're based on.

An improved range that gives them the same range as normal lasers.
That, along with their lack of a to-hit bonus, kind of makes it natural for people to want to compare them with normal lasers rather than pulse lasers.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #15 on: 13 September 2013, 13:04:28 »
Sure.  Because the pulse laser's bonus made up for the reduced range.

Fragger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #16 on: 13 September 2013, 13:15:48 »
But you don't take pulse lasers because of their damage output but because they have an easier time hitting stuff. Comparing them to Re-engineered Lasers makes no sense at all, you choose them because of completely different reasons.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #17 on: 13 September 2013, 13:56:00 »
You don't.  Other people might.  There's also the issue of critical space requirements, where yes, the Large kinda falls down on the job.

CloaknDagger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #18 on: 13 September 2013, 18:38:39 »
The big problem I see is that the specialty armors are niche to begin with, ESPECIALLY now with Hargel 2 and 3.

On top of that, the stats for the reengineered weapons are just terrible too. Look at the comparison to the regular lasers, they just barely eek out the competition even WHEN they're in their element.

Outside of specialty armors, they're just abysmally bad.

Diablo48

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #19 on: 13 September 2013, 23:47:51 »
Outside of specialty armors, they're just abysmally bad.

Even there they have issues.  They all loose out to standards against FL armor while the small and medium are a wash against hardened.  That means they are only good against reflective with the exception of the large which is also good against hardened.


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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #20 on: 13 September 2013, 23:53:08 »
by the same token, PPCs lose out to LPPCs, don't they?

Yes, the normal lasers can outperform them, provided they all hit and provided they all hit the same location.

ColBosch

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #21 on: 14 September 2013, 00:14:25 »
There's a saw about tacticians vs. statisticians tickling the back of my brain right now, but I can't remember the exact quote.
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CloaknDagger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #22 on: 14 September 2013, 00:36:07 »
by the same token, PPCs lose out to LPPCs, don't they?

No, 2xLPPCs take an extra crit.

Yes, the normal lasers can outperform them, provided they all hit and provided they all hit the same location.

The difference is very minimal. And there's no major thresholds being broken, it's not like 11 to 12 where the 12 headcaps.

SCC

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #23 on: 14 September 2013, 00:45:55 »
Sure.  Because the pulse laser's bonus made up for the reduced range.
Some what, but most of the time the to-hit bonus only serves to make up for the lost range, not actually make it a better weapon and the extra weight doesn't make them attractive it that regard, ER versions just serve to make the whole thing worse

CloaknDagger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #24 on: 14 September 2013, 00:48:43 »
Some what, but most of the time the to-hit bonus only serves to make up for the lost range, not actually make it a better weapon and the extra weight doesn't make them attractive it that regard, ER versions just serve to make the whole thing worse

Let's not turn this thread into how terrible IS pulse lasers are.

Kojak

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #25 on: 14 September 2013, 00:49:31 »
There's a saw about tacticians vs. statisticians tickling the back of my brain right now, but I can't remember the exact quote.

I don't think it's the one you're thinking of, but I'm reminded of the line from Game of Thrones: "If war were arithmetic, the mathematicians would rule the world."
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CloaknDagger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #26 on: 14 September 2013, 00:57:25 »
I don't think it's the one you're thinking of, but I'm reminded of the line from Game of Thrones: "If war were arithmetic, the mathematicians would rule the world."

What do you think business is? Or science?

ColBosch

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #27 on: 14 September 2013, 01:11:02 »
I don't think it's the one you're thinking of, but I'm reminded of the line from Game of Thrones: "If war were arithmetic, the mathematicians would rule the world."

That is it! Thanks.

What do you think business is? Or science?

Inherently chaotic systems that have proven time and time again that anything beyond the most basic short-term predictions are unreliable.
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CloaknDagger

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #28 on: 14 September 2013, 01:39:44 »
Inherently chaotic systems that have proven time and time again that anything beyond the most basic short-term predictions are unreliable.

My computer seems to work just fine, as does my other technology. I expect it to for quite a long time.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #29 on: 14 September 2013, 02:05:05 »
My computer seems to work just fine, as does my other technology. I expect it to for quite a long time.

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In practice, there is.