Register Register

Author Topic: Re-engineered Lasers  (Read 12051 times)

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7254
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #150 on: 20 September 2013, 02:03:54 »
???

No, AP ammo is negated by those armors specifically.
Yes but Armor Piercing Ammo still does full damage to those armor types, so an AC/20 firing AP removes 20 BUBBLES of armor from F-L and Hardened armored units

CloaknDagger

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3790
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #151 on: 20 September 2013, 02:07:36 »
Yes but Armor Piercing Ammo still does full damage to those armor types, so an AC/20 firing AP removes 20 BUBBLES of armor from F-L and Hardened armored units

Quote from: Tac Ops
If these weapons are fired against a location protected by Ferro-Lamellor, they deliver their standard damage
to the armor only (Armor-Piercing Ammo hits as a standard AC round

Standard AC rounds do not do full damage against lamellor.

Was there an errata I missed?

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7254
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #152 on: 20 September 2013, 02:43:45 »
No, that's the bit that means they do their full normal damage, or at least that's the common belief, that is they strike as if they where normal AC rounds striking normal armor

CloaknDagger

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3790
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #153 on: 20 September 2013, 02:48:14 »
No, that's the bit that means they do their full normal damage, or at least that's the common belief, that is they strike as if they where normal AC rounds striking normal armor

It doesn't say is acts like a normal AC round hitting normal armor, it says it acts like a normal AC round.

imperator

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 648
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #154 on: 20 September 2013, 03:49:57 »
???

No, AP ammo is negated by those armors specifically.

But they do FULL Damage, but their Through armor crit ability goes away.
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #155 on: 20 September 2013, 04:26:05 »
But they do FULL Damage, but their Through armor crit ability goes away.

Do you have an official ruling on that?

I think the wording is very clear.  The AP round looses all special effects and is treated as a standard intro-tech round which is reduced by the armor as usual, but there is no reason to argue the point when we can just ask for an official answer.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

Nahuris

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #156 on: 20 September 2013, 05:11:08 »
In my mind there is nothing any more wrong with Relasers than any other weapon. I'm an auto cannon guy. I love AC 10s and 20s. Especially Ultras. There are always threads where the ACs are looked down upon because of weight inefficiency. I still win with them and even when I lose, the flash bulbs no they've been been in a fight!  Why? My style of combat, my experience, and my lucks. So run the numbers, I like seeing them. But I'll believe they sucks when I see them lose battles ALL THE TIME. -Unofficial member if the AC/5 mafia.


Makes me feel good to see some AC love ---- it's why one of my favorite mechs is the Blade... gotta love a fast light with an AC.

Nahuris
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

imperator

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 648
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #157 on: 20 September 2013, 05:23:01 »
Even to this very day, you come into any AC20(even the old one) range, it's going to hurt!!!!!.  I also like the any but the 2.  I do sometimes give the 5 and the 2; +1 Dmg, just because.  But I still like the Shadow Hawk R and the updated M for AC/5 or AC/5 U love in 3025 to 3050 games.
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

Nahuris

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #158 on: 20 September 2013, 05:32:22 »
As for the ReLasers --- I've played a couple more games...
And as part of this, I asked my opponent to use a few of the new Kurita BA --- and that's where the ReLasers did do more than regular mediums.....
Why? Because my Kimodo, despite hitting with all 10 mediums in one round, completely FAILED to take out a single suit of BA ---  One squad of Zou Battle Armor pretty much ate 10 medium lasers..... one suit even caught 5 of the lasers ... yes, it was hit with 5 medium lasers and LIVED --- because, reflective armor halves damage, ROUNDED DOWN, meaning that 5 medium lasers does 10 damage.... and the Zou has 11 armor....

If, for no other reason, that's a good enough answer --- when a Prey Seeker, at 15 tons, is more effective at dishing damage, than a 45 ton mech.... then maybe, just maybe, there's a reason.

Against just about anything else on the field... yes, multiple mediums are better.... but against reflective battle armor, I want some ReLasers. Even my Clan Nova had issues.... since my much vaunted Clan ER Medium lasers, were suddenly reduced to 3 point hits, and I watched a suit of battle armor eat 3 of those..... For the Zou, your choice is having MANY mechs, using heavy autocannons, Groups of PPC's or Gauss Rifles, or massed LRM strikes,  trying to take them down... or an insane number of mechs with lasers trying to nickle and dime them to death... or get the laser that can, at least, do enough damage to make it worth while to bother shooting at them......
Against the Zou, 5 tons of ReLasers can kill one --- 5 tons of regular medium lasers, cannot.

Honestly, without ReLasers, the Zou can pretty much OWN any portion of the battlefield it wants to hold.

Nahuris
« Last Edit: 20 September 2013, 05:44:45 by Nahuris »
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #159 on: 20 September 2013, 07:27:53 »
Even to this very day, you come into any AC20(even the old one) range, it's going to hurt!!!!!.  I also like the any but the 2.  I do sometimes give the 5 and the 2; +1 Dmg, just because.  But I still like the Shadow Hawk R and the updated M for AC/5 or AC/5 U love in 3025 to 3050 games.

Agreed.  The 2 and 5 were fine in 3025, but the introduction of newer weapons and DHS has really hurt them on the modern battlefield.

As for the ReLasers --- I've played a couple more games...
And as part of this, I asked my opponent to use a few of the new Kurita BA --- and that's where the ReLasers did do more than regular mediums.....
Why? Because my Kimodo, despite hitting with all 10 mediums in one round, completely FAILED to take out a single suit of BA ---  One squad of Zou Battle Armor pretty much ate 10 medium lasers..... one suit even caught 5 of the lasers ... yes, it was hit with 5 medium lasers and LIVED --- because, reflective armor halves damage, ROUNDED DOWN, meaning that 5 medium lasers does 10 damage.... and the Zou has 11 armor....

If, for no other reason, that's a good enough answer --- when a Prey Seeker, at 15 tons, is more effective at dishing damage, than a 45 ton mech.... then maybe, just maybe, there's a reason.

Against just about anything else on the field... yes, multiple mediums are better.... but against reflective battle armor, I want some ReLasers. Even my Clan Nova had issues.... since my much vaunted Clan ER Medium lasers, were suddenly reduced to 3 point hits, and I watched a suit of battle armor eat 3 of those..... For the Zou, your choice is having MANY mechs, using heavy autocannons, Groups of PPC's or Gauss Rifles, or massed LRM strikes,  trying to take them down... or an insane number of mechs with lasers trying to nickle and dime them to death... or get the laser that can, at least, do enough damage to make it worth while to bother shooting at them......
Against the Zou, 5 tons of ReLasers can kill one --- 5 tons of regular medium lasers, cannot.

Honestly, without ReLasers, the Zou can pretty much OWN any portion of the battlefield it wants to hold.

Nahuris


That or you could load a SRM 6 with Infernos and call it a day.  After all, one SRM 6 with two tons of ammo is the same mass and crits as two Re-lasers but generates 10 less heat, and we all know how well most BA like Inferno SRMs.

The other obvious solution is the artillery cannons (or any other AE weapon) which will generally erase that squad with a single hit because AE weapons are doubly boosted thanks to the reflective weakness and the fact that they simultaneously hit every suit with each hit.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

Yeti

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 171
  • Mechanized Infantry
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #160 on: 20 September 2013, 08:26:15 »
Small correction: BA reflective armor does not take double damage from artillery or any other AE.
BA reflective or reactive armor give you all the advantages of the mech scale armor but none of the drawbacks.

But it would still only take 2 hits from a Sniper or 1 hit from a Long Tom to wipe out the whole squad.

MarauderD

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 733
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #161 on: 20 September 2013, 09:51:44 »
To my knowledge, Hardened and Ferro-Lamellor completely defeat the uses of AP rounds. First, there is no roll to crit. Secondly, the round does either 1/2 or 20% less damage, respectively. That was my reading of the rules.

I'm quite human and may be mistaken, but I think Diablo has the right of this.

Nahuris

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #162 on: 20 September 2013, 13:48:44 »
Agreed.  The 2 and 5 were fine in 3025, but the introduction of newer weapons and DHS has really hurt them on the modern battlefield.

That or you could load a SRM 6 with Infernos and call it a day.  After all, one SRM 6 with two tons of ammo is the same mass and crits as two Re-lasers but generates 10 less heat, and we all know how well most BA like Inferno SRMs.

The other obvious solution is the artillery cannons (or any other AE weapon) which will generally erase that squad with a single hit because AE weapons are doubly boosted thanks to the reflective weakness and the fact that they simultaneously hit every suit with each hit.

I am not disagreeing.... but sometimes, you use what you have.
Artillery may not be available, and more or less requires that you opponent agree that you can use it.
Infernos work fine, but if there is only one squad of troops.... that's a whole ton of crit seekers that is now removed.... and most SRM6's only carry one ton of ammo for the weapon.... and that doesn't count the whole group of players who equate ammo with defeat, because of the fear of ammo crits.

Also, if my opponent mixes Oni's in with those Zou, then I have problems, as they carry fireproof armor.

The ReLasers are Not the end all, be all. However, they do offer a useful counter to a rare situation.
If you look at the Prey Seeker as a newer version of the Fireball..... it makes sense. It's a light unit that can be attached to a formation, to deal with a specific battle armor threat. It's small enough, that you can easily ship it as cargo (it even looks like it was designed to fold up easily), but effective for that specific role.

Sure, if your opponent allows it, artillery is a great answer..... if you have the BV to afford it, want to deal with the rules, and have the means to transport it to the location. At the same time, Artillery is slow, the ammo is limited (as in shots per ton) and even with spotters, the accuracy leaves much to be desired. If we had something like the Army's field guns.... maybe a 105 howitzer, and we stamped the ammo with 3025+ to get around the magic armor, with the accuracy that we had in WW2...... but face it, Battletech Artillery is rather lame. And if the answer to 4 guys in shiny suits is to bring in a weapon that starts as a 55 ton vehicle, with two 5 ton support vehicles, and two 10 ton ammo carriers....... then your opponent has already won a serious tactical victory. (Look up the Long Tom in the 3039 TRO)

Nahuris
« Last Edit: 20 September 2013, 14:15:41 by Nahuris »
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

Alexander Knight

  • Peditum Generalis
  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4442
  • Can't you see I'm busy?
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #163 on: 20 September 2013, 14:09:25 »
Waitaminute....a situation was shown where the ReML was better than the ML.....

And the response is "use SRM-6s with infernos or AE attacks"?

Uh...isn't that beyond the scope of the discussion?

MarauderD

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 733
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #164 on: 20 September 2013, 17:31:58 »
I can't understand why everything is so heated on this topic. Re-Lasers have some utility. The god-king of all BT weapons, the good ole IS medium laser, may be better. I'm not sure I see what all the hubbub is about.

Most people thought they only worked against Reflective before the FM3145 came out.  Now we find out they work against all specialty anti-energy armors and people are upset they aren't better somehow? I think I got lost somewhere on this one.

Frankly, this conversation sounds like it is coming from the MWO boards. I thought this was the place for civil discourse about the hobby we love?

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 32113
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: Re-engineered Lasers
« Reply #165 on: 20 September 2013, 18:01:24 »
Locked pending Moderator review.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.