Author Topic: Field Reports 2765  (Read 34383 times)

Jellico

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #180 on: 06 December 2013, 22:56:55 »
Hmm. The Combine has another border. Seem to have forgotten about it for some reason.
Same basic problem. Only 20 Tharkads built.

DarthRads

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #181 on: 07 December 2013, 04:14:28 »
I thought it was 26 (sorry, splitting hairs)

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #182 on: 07 December 2013, 04:22:56 »


Once you throw nukes into the mix, all bets are off.  Just look at the Jihad.

What do we see after the Jihad?  Pocket WarShips, vessels you can send into combat and lose without the crippling replacement costs of a WarShips.  Massive increases in the use of anti-missile systems, to fend off nuclear-tipped capital missiles.  Fighters and small craft designed to boost point defense, by adding more AMS batteries that can target those missiles.

Setting aside out-of-character arguments that WarShips take away from Battletech's focus on ground combat, post-Jihad, everyone realized that, unless you can build enough WarShips to really count, and can afford to lose them, you're better off building what you *can* afford to lose, and what you *can* build in number.



This-- it's important to remember that  BIG nuke is likely to mission kill just about anythign it hits.  That means you not only need huge nubers of defending units but an ability to replace those units.

But I'd make a point-- warships weren't killed by nukes hitting them. Warships were killed by nukes hitting thier ports, parts factories etc. We now have two canonical cases where a power--during the succession wars, mothballed functioning ships. The LYrans with the Tharkad and the DC with their destroyers.  It's a bit Ironic, but until the PTB give us nuclear dampers, which wont' happen, warships work far better in a limited war.

Jellico

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #183 on: 07 December 2013, 04:34:11 »
This-- it's important to remember that  BIG nuke is likely to mission kill just about anythign it hits.  That means you not only need huge nubers of defending units but an ability to replace those units.

So which was the faction with defence in depth with combat DropShips, ASF, and stupidly cheap destroyers?

The following is a very relevant instructional video on how to deal with nukes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4

This is an environment where the threat is less capital missiles, than the Alamo under the wing of every fighter over 50 tons. Your AMS defences will fail eventually.

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #184 on: 07 December 2013, 08:17:14 »
Are there rules aside from the Jihad books, that allows a player to use Naval Nukes?

A Cruiser, like Quintex Class Frigate after yet.  Can be nasty customer if missile's warheads are actually nuclear.

Not saying i'd use barracuda to take out a spesky Lightning fighter buzzing around, but if there squadron of WarShips a foot or squadron of assault dropships coming.  Firing one nuke to take out four seems to be ammunition saving experience to me.

Specially if your operating during the Age of War when AMS hasn't really been effectively put in place as standard equipment..
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Jellico

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #185 on: 07 December 2013, 09:53:55 »
Try Reunifications War for rules.

Given how the SLDF was routinely throwing nukes at Castle Brians in Klondike I have minimal qualms as using 100% nuclear capital missiles as AA.

But we have heard how nukes come in and out of favour.

Not saying i'd use barracuda to take out a spesky Lightning fighter buzzing around, but if there squadron of WarShips a foot or squadron of assault dropships coming.  Firing one nuke to take out four seems to be ammunition saving experience to me.
Nukes aren't area effect weapons. They require contact to kill. Really they are just big capital weapons. A Type II (Alamo)does 10 capital and only crits on a 10+. A Type III (Santa Anna) does 100 and crits on 9+. Even a Naga will survive that most of the time. A Type IV (Peacemaker) is the only really consistently fatal one with 1000 points of damage.

A crit delivers 10 x damage direct to the structural integrity. So a Type II will do 100 capital damage to the SI. No halving. Potentially very fatal... if it gets lucky.

So quite survivable. Put another way a Leopard can take multiple Type IIs.

The main problem is the Electromagnetic Interference which effectively puts +2 on targeting for anyone in the hex at the time for the remainder of the scenario. But of course at that point opening the throttles and getting some open space is advisable anyway.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2013, 11:19:13 by Jellico »

Wrangler

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #186 on: 07 December 2013, 11:51:53 »
Try Reunifications War for rules.

Given how the SLDF was routinely throwing nukes at Castle Brians in Klondike I have minimal qualms as using 100% nuclear capital missiles as AA.

But we have heard how nukes come in and out of favour.
Nukes aren't area effect weapons. They require contact to kill. Really they are just big capital weapons. A Type II (Alamo)does 10 capital and only crits on a 10+. A Type III (Santa Anna) does 100 and crits on 9+. Even a Naga will survive that most of the time. A Type IV (Peacemaker) is the only really consistently fatal one with 1000 points of damage.

A crit delivers 10 x damage direct to the structural integrity. So a Type II will do 100 capital damage to the SI. No halving. Potentially very fatal... if it gets lucky.

So quite survivable. Put another way a Leopard can take multiple Type IIs.

The main problem is the Electromagnetic Interference which effectively puts +2 on targeting for anyone in the hex at the time for the remainder of the scenario. But of course at that point opening the throttles and getting some open space is advisable anyway.

Whaa.  I guess that's away to keep things get broken.  But kinda makes the nukes into basically crit seeker weapons verses with no worries of thresholds.  They should be AOEs, or least have some sort of effect beyond the ECMs.  Cruiser won't be truly be able to clear out area if the nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl.   That would be a reason why they would be band or reluctively be used even in space I would think.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #187 on: 07 December 2013, 12:20:18 »
...nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl.

You mean how they work in atmosphere. The reason nuclear weapons are area effect weapons is that there's an atmosphere to carry their shockwave. You shoot one in space, there's little to no atmosphere or any other medium for the shockwave to travel through(just like sound), so it dissipates very quickly, the energy instead going into radiation and light, things that can travel through empty space. As a result, the detonation has to be in physical contact or extremely close to the target to do raw damage.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #188 on: 07 December 2013, 13:50:13 »
That's one of the things the Honorverse got right, too: most missiles there are x-ray lasers because true nukes, while highly damaging, have to make actual contact with the hull, something difficult to do.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #189 on: 07 December 2013, 13:52:57 »
Time for X-Ray Pump Bombs in Battletech.  ;)
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #190 on: 07 December 2013, 14:04:32 »
Isn't there an Era Report that describes even the classic LL as a graser? Woulnd't surprie me if NLs are bomb-pumped...
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #191 on: 07 December 2013, 14:13:38 »
Isn't there an Era Report that describes even the classic LL as a graser? Woulnd't surprie me if NLs are bomb-pumped...

Not that I'm aware of.  And NACs are basically bomb-pumped.

Time for X-Ray Pump Bombs in Battletech.  ;)

No. Just...no.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #192 on: 07 December 2013, 14:19:23 »
Found it. Era Report 2750, page 99. Large Lasers are grasers. O0
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #193 on: 07 December 2013, 14:21:17 »
They should be AOEs

Sure, in an atmosphere, underwater, or underground, where there's a lot of matter to turn their energy into a shockwave. In a vacuum, you've only got a few dozen or hundred kilograms of bomb mass to work with (unless you get close to the target and can heat the target sufficiently). That makes nukes pretty toothless in space, but for their x-ray and neutron radiation.

The thing is, BT spacecraft aren't bothered by the big electrical surges from the x-ray pulse of a nuke, and they have near-magical radiation shielding. The only thing left is brute damage, which nukes do poorly in a vacuum. They're much more effective when they can superheat millions of tons of atmosphere, creating an explosion to smash objects within a few kilometers. Meanwhile, the scale of space combat (18km/hex) means that anything less than several gigatons isn't going to have an area of effect.

Quote
if the nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl.

No. BattleTech's nuclear weapons were modeled very carefully on real life nuclear weapons, down to borrowing Cold War equations for primary and secondary effect radii and their vacuum behavior.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2013, 14:27:42 by cray »
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Jellico

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #194 on: 07 December 2013, 18:06:13 »
Whaa.  I guess that's away to keep things get broken.  But kinda makes the nukes into basically crit seeker weapons verses with no worries of thresholds.  They should be AOEs, or least have some sort of effect beyond the ECMs.  Cruiser won't be truly be able to clear out area if the nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl.   That would be a reason why they would be band or reluctively be used even in space I would think.

Also, being pedantic, a Cruiser is not a great nuke boat simply because we have no Barracuda mounted nuke. Only White Shark and Killer Whale.

Santa Annas make suitable squadron busters. Kill a fighter and blind the rest. Unfortunately I find you need Barracudas to target fighters outside 25 hexes.

Also, note how popular White Sharks are in Hegemony Ships. The Avatar screams to mind.

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #195 on: 07 December 2013, 18:08:04 »
The IO alternate eras pre-beta offers the Ahab nuclear warhead for the Barracuda. A particularly high yield weapon at that.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #196 on: 07 December 2013, 18:08:43 »
Ooo...what's the damage spread?
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #197 on: 07 December 2013, 18:21:12 »
Well, it's got a yield of 150 kilotons, so it's got three times the damage capacity of a Santa Anna against a capital ship. It's also a purely spaceborn weapon, so all you can use it for is ship to ship or ship to surface fire.

Ooh, there's also the hilariously named Asset Management Weapon listed in there, developed by the Mariks for the first war. It also fits on a Barracuda but can only be used for bombardment. Probably a good thing, because its yield is 3 megatons.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #198 on: 07 December 2013, 20:29:54 »
Ooo...what's the damage spread?

Well, it's got a yield of 150 kilotons, so it's got three times the damage capacity of a Santa Anna against a capital ship. It's also a purely spaceborn weapon, so all you can use it for is ship to ship or ship to surface fire.

So...what's the damage spread? :)
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Jellico

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #199 on: 07 December 2013, 20:31:02 »
Can you target sub-200 ton units with Alamos?

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #200 on: 07 December 2013, 22:06:23 »
So...what's the damage spread? :)

30,000 points of damage at ground zero with a damage degradation of 226 points per ground hex and a secondary effect radius of 266 hexes for the Ahab.

The asset management weapon inflicts 600,000 points of damage at ground zero and has a damage degradation of 1662 points per hex, and a secondary effect radius of 722 ground hexes.

But above a certain yield isn't better to just say everything dies?
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #201 on: 07 December 2013, 22:06:51 »
Can you target sub-200 ton units with Alamos?

You know, I see no rules against it.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #202 on: 07 December 2013, 22:12:42 »
I'm looking for the space damage. How much damage do these warheads do to starships, either on the near hit or the crit?
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #203 on: 07 December 2013, 22:30:39 »
Ahab is 300 (8+).

AMW? 6000... if you were to actually hit a Warship with it. It can't target Warships. It can't do anything but orbital bombardment and it only needs 1 Capital worth of AMS to kill it between it and target.

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #204 on: 07 December 2013, 22:35:54 »
Damn, 300 without the crit? That won't pop a battleship in one shot, but it'll definitely mess one up, and do horrific things to anything smaller. :o
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #205 on: 07 December 2013, 22:39:45 »
20 Tharkhad for the LC fleet, seems like a huge fleet numbers compared to the fleets of 2765.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #206 on: 07 December 2013, 22:42:54 »
Might not be all that huge, if they don't have much else. Might be naught else but a handful of Makos, a few Aegii, and the odd Terran castoff.
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #207 on: 07 December 2013, 22:47:36 »
That was how many were built total. Good odds some of those were built in the gap between 2765 and the Exodus.

And Lyrans had 62 Warships in 2765. Two thus far... are the weakest Naval Powers in 2765. FWL has 47, FedSuns 51, Lyrans 62.


Even if every single Tharkad was in service (All 28 of them) in 2765.. the Lyrans would still have another 34 Warships.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2013, 22:50:54 by VhenRa »

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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #208 on: 07 December 2013, 23:04:41 »
You know, it's been so long since I shepherded the RATS for 2765 that I completely forgot we put some Easter Eggs into it. Yeah, enjoy the Star Dagger. Anyone notice the ASF Egg in CCAF?
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Re: Field Reports 2765
« Reply #209 on: 07 December 2013, 23:05:51 »
I did, yeah. Looking forward to some FotW addendums. 8)
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