No Clan Handbook

[Hawkeye Jim]

No, I'm thinking of Field Manuals as the thicker books. The smaller ones would be more the size of the ones used for things like the GDL series or Snord's/Rhonda's Irregulars. That size should be much cheaper to both produce and buy.

[Jaim Magnus]

It's certainly a possibility. And I'd take that over no book at all.

[Hawkeye Jim]

It would be much easier to produce a separate book for each Clan in that size. Same for the TROs. maybe a separate book for each size of mech. Maybe use preorders to determine if there's enough interest in  a particular item to make it worthwhile to print it.

[Daishi411]

i suppose my continuing concern is that we will end up seeing the disappearance of clan material, and it will always be inner sphere stuff and the clans just so happen to make an appearance, like jihad books, since sale numbers show that clan product blow as a money maker.

that then begs the question, why not pdf products similar size to the golden age one that outlines things about the clans we didn't know before.

the one thing clan fans can definitely look forward to is the DA particularly at the end, when you see the falcon and wolves going ape ****

[StCptMara]

the one thing clan fans can definitely look forward to is the DA particularly at the end, when you see the falcon and wolves going ape ****

What makes you think that will make any difference? Clan stuff will still not sell well...

[Jaim Magnus]

What makes you think that will make any difference? Clan stuff will still not sell well...

Which is sad.  It's most of what I buy BT related. :(

[Daishi411]

What makes you think that will make any difference? Clan stuff will still not sell well...

and yet costs are much lower overall. books are expensive to make, making them pdfs cuts everything out the middle. i'm not trained in business studies, but that's how i see. i have noticed that you do have greater insight into this topic however, so i would appreciate if perhaps explain your view on pdfs, just so that i can gain some better understanding

[Hawkeye Jim]

Putting out more stuff the size of the Golden Century as PDF I should think would be cost effective. It would certainly be better than nothing.

[Kit deSummersville]

that then begs the question, why not pdf products similar size to the golden age one that outlines things about the clans we didn't know before.

Maybe, just takes one person willing to take it on and make a good pitch.

[Hawkeye Jim]

The larger cost of such products will be the printing, not the developement. Eliminate the printing part, and you don't need the volume to be as large to make a profit.

[Daishi411]

Maybe, just takes one person willing to take it on and make a good pitch.

this hear is what i'm thinking.

[roosterboy]

The larger cost of such products will be the printing, not the developement.

That's actually the opposite of what we've been told by CGL people in the past. Cutting out the printing costs doesn't lower the overall costs that much.

[Hawkeye Jim]

That's actually the opposite of what we've been told by CGL people in the past. Cutting out the printing costs doesn't lower the overall costs that much.

Interesting. They must be spending a great amount on developing. Unless distribution costs are high. Those would be eliminated too.

Heck, if they want to cut down on developement costs, just let the forum faithful pitch in.

[Guardsman]

What books were the biggest sellers?

[Dread Moores]

TROs have been mentioned in the past as one of the higher selling products (don't recall if it was stated as the highest). Specifics on highest selling books haven't ever been revealed, and likely never will be. Also, there are several things that don't change in terms of development for PDF vs print: writing, artwork (that's always a significant cost), and time/pay for the layout folks. Compared to those three, it's not hard to imagine that printing and distribution costs are not as significant. And while it is great to think that having forum fans help for free would solve part of the writing costs, there's legal issues wrapped in that scenario. Writers and artists still need to be paid, and layout folks still have to be employed/paid (no idea if they're full-time employees or freelance), doesn't matter if it kills some trees or just some hard drive space. On the resource side, all the same work needs to go into a PDF product. It still needs to be proofread, edited, and fact-checked. In the case of Handbooks, the fact-checking has been noted as particularly intensive. While some of those may not cost money directly, they will certainly eat up resources and time in the product pipeline.

All that being said, I'd prefer to see a Clan Handbook myself, and I don't even really consider myself much of a Clan fan. But I can understand why it is not currently happening for an under-performing product series. I still wish the Starterbooks were being produced though, so I get the pain here. :)

[Hawkeye Jim]

In terms of fan assistance, I'm thinking more of them inputing ideas. If the writers have a good idea of what the fans want to see, it should make the work go more quickly.

[Dread Moores]

Again, still potential legal issues. Hence why fan unit designs are separated out in places the writers don't go. Also, the forums here aren't significantly representative of the Battletech fanbase. Forums for any game system never really are. There are always far more fans out there who never look at game forums, buying simply off what they find on store shelves.

[joechummer]

That's actually the opposite of what we've been told by CGL people in the past. Cutting out the printing costs doesn't lower the overall costs that much.

True, but PDF-only products are generally much shorter in length than print products (meaning less content writers need to be paid for) and often use recycled art (which has already been paid for).

[Dread Moores]

I'd wager a guess it also limits potential return on the expense, as sales will likely be lower, as I would think more product is sold from store shelves. That whole bit about the forums not being the entire fanbase again. That's just a guess though, nothing specific to back that up. PDF products, from some of the things I've read from Evil Hat and Posthuman Studios, seem to require a very careful balancing act regarding product expense and product price point. I'd imagine the same issues would apply for CGL.

[joechummer]

In terms of fan assistance, I'm thinking more of them inputing ideas. If the writers have a good idea of what the fans want to see, it should make the work go more quickly.

There is a reason why TPTB don't look at certain subforums here (such as the fan designs section, for example) because all it takes is the wrong disgruntled fan to accuse CGL of stealing their idea and really hurt the company with legal battles.  It's the same reason why Herb in general does not even look at unsolicited material for sourcebooks or the like.  If he's interested in someone in particular to write sourcebook material, HE gets in contact with THEM, not the other way around.

[Hawkeye Jim]

If legal issues are the problem, simply make a site availiable where fans can submit their ideas to CGL knowing that they might be used. Sending anything to the site constitutes permission to use. Some fans would be delighted to know their idea was used. The only payment they would require is inclusion in a list of contributors.

[StCptMara]

Maybe, just takes one person willing to take it on and make a good pitch.

Provided, of course, it is a solicited pitch. Unsolicited goes straight into the circular file from
what Herb has said in the past.

If legal issues are the problem, simply make a site availiable where fans can submit their ideas to CGL knowing that they might be used. Sending anything to the site constitutes permission to use. Some fans would be delighted to know their idea was used. The only payment they would require is inclusion in a list of contributors.

See, that might work in the US, however, how does German or Russian or Spanish Intellectual Property Laws
work? CGL would have to know how the IP laws for every country where they have fans work, and keep abreast
of them, to make that work. Which would, ultimately, cost more then just not allowing it.

[joechummer]

If legal issues are the problem, simply make a site availiable where fans can submit their ideas to CGL knowing that they might be used. Sending anything to the site constitutes permission to use. Some fans would be delighted to know their idea was used. The only payment they would require is inclusion in a list of contributors.

To borrow from a post I made on the BattleCorps forum not too long ago:

"Any writer will tell you that a lack of ideas usually isn't a problem when it comes to writing (so-called "writer's block" isn't the result of a lack of ideas; it's the paralyzing fear that you will write something terrible). I read in some writing how-to book years ago something along the lines of that the author would readily sell someone a list of 100 novel ideas for just $1, and the buyer would think they are getting a deal. What the buyer doesn't understand is that ideas by themselves can't be copyrighted; only the execution of ideas can be. For example, give two authors the exact same plot nugget, and you'll get two completely different stories and different characters out of it."

That said, giving the CGL writers a "bucket of free ideas" is more than likely going to be a hindrance than a help (and this isn't even taking into account the time it would take to sort through to mountains of "meh" to find the few grains of "eureka!"...).  And as a writer myself, I've found it is SO much easier to write a story based on your OWN idea than it is to have someone hand you an idea and say, "Here. Make a story out of this."  Sure, you can still write a story based on someone else's idea, but it will likely be joyless compared to a story based on your own idea.

[Hawkeye Jim]

It wouldn't have to be story ideas, just what types of things would the fans like to see. Might give a writer some sense of what directions he might want to explore.

For example, should he go into to detail on some of the history, or more detail on the current goings on. More info on how the Clan deals with internal matters or their relations with other Clans.

[joechummer]

I think the disparity between what fans like to see (AKA "what the small percentage of fans who decided to voice their opinions would like to see") and what those same fans will actually end up buying is a very big difference.  Those same fans might end up just borrowing the book from a friend or maybe even pirating a digital copy when they find out they can't (or don't want to) afford it, or they might not even be aware the book came out if they've wandered far enough away from the community in the interim.

And people have said time and time again that this message board is a gross misrepresentation of the cross-section of the actual real-life BT fan population.  There are diehard fans who've never come here, who would never even know the existence of any "bucket of ideas," and so on.  Having 5 people drop "I'd like to see more Clan history" into the bucket isn't really going to tell the line developer anything.

And besides, I'd like to think Herb & Co. have some kind of awesome Clan products in the pipeline that haven't even been announced yet.  TPTB haven't treated us wrong yet, so I'd like to believe they know what they're doing without needing an idea bucket to see what fans want.  TPTB are ALREADY fans, which is the main reason why they're finishing the Handbook series despite knowing these last two volumes probably won't sell as much as they'd like, whereas a business solely in it for the bottom line would've canceled the Handbook series after sales numbers for HB:MPS first came in.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Oh, well, I'm not in charge. I'll either buy or not buy, depending on what I like. Just like everybody else.

[joechummer]

I'm not saying you shouldn't make your voice heard.  There are appropriate channels for that, though, in the form of the subforums Catalyst Asks You, Ask the Writers, and Ask the Lead Developers.  Then, there's also the monthly BattleChats, where you can ask Herb himself questions directly (and subsequently get frustrated and/or encouraged by his answers).  While I'm sure he doesn't put all of his development-direction eggs in these baskets, I'd be surprised if he doesn't use them as at least some kind of barometer for the fan populace, in the sense of keeping track of how many questions there were about Products A and B but 1 or no questions about Products C and D.

And of course, sales numbers are the ultimate immutable truth.

[TigerShark]

I really wish they'd go one way or the other with the Clans. Either annihilate them completely and end the story line or support them and flesh out the factions individually. Is there a lack of interest? I don't have that data. I only know what I and what the few friends I have who play CBT have told me: We want more Clan materials.

Frankly, I believe they were simply a plot device to be used for a specific era and are on the back burner now that they are obviously no threat. They simply exist as playable factions and that's the end of them, much like the Tortuga Dominions or Marian Hegemony. No real need to flesh them out now that they're effectively "dead" and static.

[Guardsman]

I really wish they'd go one way or the other with the Clans. Either annihilate them completely and end the story line or support them and flesh out the factions individually. Is there a lack of interest? I don't have that data. I only know what I and what the few friends I have who play CBT have told me: We want more Clan materials.

Frankly, I believe they were simply a plot device to be used for a specific era and are on the back burner now that they are obviously no threat. They simply exist as playable factions and that's the end of them, much like the Tortuga Dominions or Marian Hegemony. No real need to flesh them out now that they're effectively "dead" and static.

I don’t believe BattleTech has ever gone that path: to fully create something, and then destroy it. The only real examples that come to mind are the Terran Hegemony and the Rim Worlds Republic, but they were always created to be in the past, giving the universe depth. For whatever reason, they gave BattleTech a deep sense of history. Unlike Star Trek, which is episodic, and Star Wars, which is here we are, but don’t ask too much about how it got this way, BattleTech is an organic creation.

The fourth Succession War picks up more than a thousand years into space exploration. What they have done would be like the Roman Empire writing stories about the present day. But back to the destroying the Clans, even the Clans that were built to be killed off have endured in some way. The Wolverines became the Word of Blake. Natasha Kerensky is known as the Black Widow for her Widowmaker DNA. The Mongoose live on as part of Clan Cloud Cobra (despite Clan Smoke Jaguar absorbing them), Burrocks within Clan Star Adder, and may well live again, and the Jags have endured as the Dark, a number of pirates, and the Fidelis. No faction ever really dies in BattleTech, it just gives way to the next story, sometimes going into a deep hibernation, but they always seem to return to the fold.

[Neufeld]

If you want a Clan Handbook, then buy all Clan products that are available from CGL that you are missing, and all House Handbooks that you are missing. Some stuff, from the FASA and FanPro era is available in pdf, buy those too.
For increasing sales of Handbooks and Clan sources is the best way to convince CGL to produce more. Words on the forums are just words, sales are cold facts.