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Author Topic: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread  (Read 78061 times)

truetanker

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #360 on: 16 October 2013, 19:58:13 »
Hmm...

Weapon Carrier, either of the three.
Wyvern-5Nsi, same engine.
Seydlitz-21b, non-cannon version : ERL, DHS, FA armor, also same engine.

TT
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Col.Hengist

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #361 on: 16 October 2013, 20:04:58 »
That 4P hunchy may not have rande but its a nasty city fighter. The only thing its really missing is JJ's.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #362 on: 16 October 2013, 20:42:47 »
Hmm...

Weapon Carrier, either of the three.
Wyvern-5Nsi, same engine.
Seydlitz-21b, non-cannon version : ERL, DHS, FA armor, also same engine.

TT

Remind me to reread Liberation of Terra 2 when I get home tonight.

Also, if extended range lasers and the carriers Ferro armor end up being an issue (the Wyvern uses standard armor, even on the 5sl, right?), and if wanting to stick to canon designs, the original Wyvern and Seydlitz, along with the LB-2X Carrier, could work.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #363 on: 17 October 2013, 09:52:45 »
First, what sort of tech level are you limiting the NAM to for self-sufficient production? Succession Wars-era cheap & easy like the Filtvelt Coalition or a slow climb back to Royal tech like previous?

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #364 on: 17 October 2013, 09:54:49 »
Quietly Nyops can build the LBX-2 Carrier, I think Hadrian Industries is manufactured or versions of CA-2 Carrier in Pompey, in terms of models that build the gallery is very extensive model can build some Star League or rescue some of the early Nucleo or older models of the New Dallas

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #365 on: 17 October 2013, 13:07:05 »
First, what sort of tech level are you limiting the NAM to for self-sufficient production? Succession Wars-era cheap & easy like the Filtvelt Coalition or a slow climb back to Royal tech like previous?

That is inherent in the question, actually: what could Niops build back up to in a reasonable timeframe?

In the old days, Niops was relatively high-tech, but production rates were extremely slow.  I'd operate under the assumption that the more advanced the technology in the combat units they produce, the longer it will take.

We don't know the level of civilian casualties suffered during their civil war or the Word of Bake invasion but, in the latter, nukes got lobbed around on their capital world.  They may be well below the old number of 19 million, perhaps as low as the 12 million I'd read about for current Randis or New St. Andrews.  Both of them started with either industrial or primitive level tech, but, then, neither really had any manufacturing history, either, which Niops did.

In the end, figuring out what tech base is as much an issue as figuring out what units fit your new doctrine.
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Niopsian

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #366 on: 17 October 2013, 13:39:56 »
That is inherent in the question, actually: what could Niops build back up to in a reasonable timeframe?

In the old days, Niops was relatively high-tech, but production rates were extremely slow.  I'd operate under the assumption that the more advanced the technology in the combat units they produce, the longer it will take.

We don't know the level of civilian casualties suffered during their civil war or the Word of Bake invasion but, in the latter, nukes got lobbed around on their capital world.  They may be well below the old number of 19 million, perhaps as low as the 12 million I'd read about for current Randis or New St. Andrews.  Both of them started with either industrial or primitive level tech, but, then, neither really had any manufacturing history, either, which Niops did.

In the end, figuring out what tech base is as much an issue as figuring out what units fit your new doctrine.

For an initial manufacturing venture, I think I'd look at something like a RetroTech security 'Mech. Something around the 15 - 25 ton range.

There's two reasons for this. First, sticking to RetroTech means that all the parts and pieces should be able to be produced locally, which means it's a road map to building a production pipeline for more state of the art hardware later. And it's a simple enough design that it should allow for greater production than one unit per semester.  ;)

Secondly, given the undercurrent of unrest and dissatisfaction with the Niops VII government, it gives said government expanded security and crowd control capabilities.


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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #367 on: 17 October 2013, 14:20:09 »

 given the undercurrent of unrest and dissatisfaction with the Niops VII government, it gives said government expanded security and crowd control capabilities.


And for that we are good neighbors of the Marian Hegemony?, to spare the population let us relocate the slave, no no no such word, Workers at low budget, better not let us we take them to be divided into 8 or 9 colonies different

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #368 on: 17 October 2013, 16:02:12 »
For an initial manufacturing venture, I think I'd look at something like a RetroTech security 'Mech. Something around the 15 - 25 ton range.

There's two reasons for this. First, sticking to RetroTech means that all the parts and pieces should be able to be produced locally, which means it's a road map to building a production pipeline for more state of the art hardware later. And it's a simple enough design that it should allow for greater production than one unit per semester.  ;)

Secondly, given the undercurrent of unrest and dissatisfaction with the Niops VII government, it gives said government expanded security and crowd control capabilities.

It's a bit outside your mass range, but the Rock Hound and ita variants may be a good choice, especially given the Niops relationship with Interatellar Expeditions.  Specifically, Niops could make good use of hordes of Space Hounds for germanium mining, and they could double as local defense and exploration 'Mechs.  Eventually you could also use that 160 fusion engine with Locusts, and I'm sure some ASF uses it.

I'm also fond of the primitive WSP-1, which is a decent primitive scout/light combat 'Mech, which would lead to the WSP-1A, which could load specialty SRMs, like tear gas rounds.
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Niopsian

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #369 on: 17 October 2013, 17:18:05 »
It's a bit outside your mass range, but the Rock Hound and ita variants may be a good choice, especially given the Niops relationship with Interatellar Expeditions.  Specifically, Niops could make good use of hordes of Space Hounds for germanium mining, and they could double as local defense and exploration 'Mechs.  Eventually you could also use that 160 fusion engine with Locusts, and I'm sure some ASF uses it.

I'm also fond of the primitive WSP-1, which is a decent primitive scout/light combat 'Mech, which would lead to the WSP-1A, which could load specialty SRMs, like tear gas rounds.

I'm drawing a blank here. Which book has the stats?


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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #370 on: 17 October 2013, 17:30:20 »
Handbook Major Periphery States for the Rockhound.  XTRO Primitives Volume 2 for the WSP-1 - think it also has the primitive Banshee.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #371 on: 18 October 2013, 10:20:20 »
Then to answer the production question I will split it for each of the 3 choices as well as taking Niops current and possible future tech levels into consideration:

Aerospace - This is essential for system defense, so one of the 3 choices must be a fighter. Lowtech AND hightech choice: Lightning. The AC/20 and MLs make it good warning for any incoming hostile ships or strafing in support of ground troops. When Niops reclaims SL tech level, the Royal Lightning receives a massive boost in range and accuracy. It is also bog standard, easy to maintain and not a faction-specific restricted unit.

Battlesuit - Tanks might be easier to produce and replace, but battlesuits are more versatile and for population control. I think the Fa Shih is the ideal choice for Niops. Not only is it lower on the tech level than the later generation suits, the mines allow it to do a lot of damage to invaders and the modular weapons make it versatile for population control/defense/offense. It's low armor would be murder in IS combat, but 7 pts is very good against the most common weapons fielded by Periphery opponents, especially MLs. However, I suggested this battlesuit almost because of its most useful feature, Mag Clamps, which brings us to the third choice of unit for production:

Mech - Enforcer. While it may lack indirect fire capability it has jump jets and is a good all-round 'Mech. The basic Enforcer is good for lowtech production, but if Niops upgrades to SL tech levels again the Enforcer has some good variants from the -5D and III lines. The most important thing is the mobility allows it to ferry the Mag Clamp Fa Shihs around the battlefield while allowing the Niops military to operate fully integrated among all 3 suggested units and eliminating most terrain restrictions that would limit a tank force.


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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #372 on: 18 October 2013, 14:43:21 »
Side Note:  Turns out the Space Hound drops both SRM-4s from its Rock Hound progenitor, and replaces them with a single small laser.  The rest of the mass is eaten by environmental sealing, a ton of cargo, and fuel for the jump jet.

Then to answer the production question I will split it for each of the 3 choices as well as taking Niops current and possible future tech levels into consideration:

Aerospace - This is essential for system defense, so one of the 3 choices must be a fighter. Lowtech AND hightech choice: Lightning. The AC/20 and MLs make it good warning for any incoming hostile ships or strafing in support of ground troops. When Niops reclaims SL tech level, the Royal Lightning receives a massive boost in range and accuracy. It is also bog standard, easy to maintain and not a faction-specific restricted unit.

Damn, that's a good choice:  it's also got a primitive AC/10 version if they need to ramp up to intro tech.

Quote
Battlesuit - Tanks might be easier to produce and replace, but battlesuits are more versatile and for population control. I think the Fa Shih is the ideal choice for Niops. Not only is it lower on the tech level than the later generation suits, the mines allow it to do a lot of damage to invaders and the modular weapons make it versatile for population control/defense/offense. It's low armor would be murder in IS combat, but 7 pts is very good against the most common weapons fielded by Periphery opponents, especially MLs. However, I suggested this battlesuit almost because of its most useful feature, Mag Clamps, which brings us to the third choice of unit for production:

This one's interesting, and would be ideal...but would the Magistracy or Capellans be willing to part with the blueprints?  MUL lists them as Cappie only, though they're on the RAT for the Magistracy as of 3145, so I'm sure they have the plans by then.  But, while they're old, they're also very xin sheng, so I don't know if they'd give Niops the plans.

Also...that xin sheng is a double-edged sword.  It might be a useful symbol to bolster the underclass of Capellan descent on Niops, but may also flare up pro-Capellan (thus anti-Niops) sentiment.

Quote
Mech - Enforcer. While it may lack indirect fire capability it has jump jets and is a good all-round 'Mech. The basic Enforcer is good for lowtech production, but if Niops upgrades to SL tech levels again the Enforcer has some good variants from the -5D and III lines. The most important thing is the mobility allows it to ferry the Mag Clamp Fa Shihs around the battlefield while allowing the Niops military to operate fully integrated among all 3 suggested units and eliminating most terrain restrictions that would limit a tank force.

I agree a 50-ton 4/6/4 'Mech that shares the 200-rating engine from the Lightning would be perfect.  I'm worried about whether or not Niops could get the plans, though.  Pity we never saw the original SLDF version (which was unbuilt blueprints) with twin medium lasers instead of the single large laser.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #373 on: 18 October 2013, 18:15:13 »
I'd go for a bit heavier lineup, maybe it's the Coyote in me coming out.

ASF: Rapier.  A great old SLDF standby, with a Royal version if they advance the tech along
BA: I'd go for the Infilitartor II (Magnetic).  It may not have soe of the functionality of the Fa Shih, and has slightly less armor, but the Stealth, ECM, and MagShot are a great combo with many advantages over the Fa Shih in other areas.
Mech: If you're wanting engine commonality with the ASF, you have to take a 4/6 85 tonner.  So I'd take the BattleMaster.  It's got tons of variants to choose from, a gun for every situation, from MGs to a PPC, an SRM-6 with 2 tons of ammo for fun with different loads, etc etc.  Even a couple of Royal variant if you progress that far.  That said, I'd forget about engine commonality and go for a Black Knight, myself.  I'm big on durable flashbulbs. No ammo, standard engine, several variants to choose from including a Royal, god speed, a good mech for commanders, battlefists for additional utility off the battlefield, and it's not an assault mech, which is probably a selling point as far as resource-intensiveness goes.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #374 on: 18 October 2013, 19:04:57 »
Crab? Starslayer.

There is almost no military situation in Battletech that cannot be solved with the application of more Starslayer. Niops can just get the blueprints from Blue Star in a black bag job. :P

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #375 on: 18 October 2013, 19:09:43 »
Actually, the Black Knight is an interesting choice: Niops used to build them, and there are multiple tech levels available, including an intro tech one.

For commonality, there's the Eagle, a LL/ML boat with the same engine, that comes in primitive, intro and standard flavors, the latter of which includes a Royal.

It would be absolutely hilarious to see Niops make their own retrotech Black Knight design to go with the Eagle as they rebuild their tech base.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #376 on: 18 October 2013, 23:42:26 »
Damn, that's a good choice:  it's also got a primitive AC/10 version if they need to ramp up to intro tech.

Exactly. Too bad specialty ammo cant be used in aero fights.

Quote
This one's interesting, and would be ideal...but would the Magistracy or Capellans be willing to part with the blueprints?  MUL lists them as Cappie only, though they're on the RAT for the Magistracy as of 3145, so I'm sure they have the plans by then.  But, while they're old, they're also very xin sheng, so I don't know if they'd give Niops the plans.

Also...that xin sheng is a double-edged sword.  It might be a useful symbol to bolster the underclass of Capellan descent on Niops, but may also flare up pro-Capellan (thus anti-Niops) sentiment.

Just capture a few Fa Shih/buy them in the black market and reverse-engineer them. As for the name, they can just change it to Invoker or something to avoid the nationalist connotations.

Quote
I agree a 50-ton 4/6/4 'Mech that shares the 200-rating engine from the Lightning would be perfect.  I'm worried about whether or not Niops could get the plans, though.  Pity we never saw the original SLDF version (which was unbuilt blueprints) with twin medium lasers instead of the single large laser.

You make a good point with the engine commonality. Niops should be able to license the plans. Afterall the Marians could get access to the Centurion plans. I thought the original SLDF version turned out to be the Enfield?

As a note, I deliberately avoided heavier designs because of the added logistical burden(which I don't think a nation like Niops can handle efficiently if their entire army becomes heavyweight) as well as the slower rate of production that could hamper replacing battlefield losses. Afterall, Niops is not looking for conquest. What they want is sufficient numbers and strength to act as a strong deterrent to would-be invaders/raiders that would make them go elsewhere for easier pickings.

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #377 on: 19 October 2013, 02:22:47 »
Exactly. Too bad specialty ammo cant be used in aero fights.

I'm trying to remember if we opened that up to discussion for TacOps/StratOps, or just proceeded to run screaming into the hills of Montana to hide in a cabin if anyone even mentioned the concept.

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Just capture a few Fa Shih/buy them in the black market and reverse-engineer them. As for the name, they can just change it to Invoker or something to avoid the nationalist connotations.

I wonder...would that work for the Kanazuchi?

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You make a good point with the engine commonality. Niops should be able to license the plans. Afterall the Marians could get access to the Centurion plans. I thought the original SLDF version turned out to be the Enfield?

Nope.  Different beasties.  The Enforcer blueprints were found in 2777, and put into production.  The Enfield was found in 2870, and couldn't be produced for much later.  There were strong similarities, though.

As for standardization, it does have a downside: you run the risk of production bottlenecks if there's a problem with any one component.  Take the Black Knight/Eagle combo.  Both use the 300 Vlar, both use standard armor and heat sinks, both use large and medium lasers, and there's even a Marik version of the dumbed-down BL7-KNT that swaps the PPC out for another large laser.

What happens if the fusion plant gets damaged in a raid?  Or the large laser plant?

One answer might be that it might be better to put one production group on each planet:  one fusion engine, one ASF/'Mech/vehicle produced that use it.  While that means dividing up your forces, you have to do that to garrison each world anyway.

Quote
As a note, I deliberately avoided heavier designs because of the added logistical burden(which I don't think a nation like Niops can handle efficiently if their entire army becomes heavyweight) as well as the slower rate of production that could hamper replacing battlefield losses. Afterall, Niops is not looking for conquest. What they want is sufficient numbers and strength to act as a strong deterrent to would-be invaders/raiders that would make them go elsewhere for easier pickings.

Yep, pretty much.  The biggest problem Niops has is that, even at Star League tech levels, the rest of the Inner Sphere has long since surpassed their tech base.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #378 on: 19 October 2013, 02:25:11 »
Crab? Starslayer.

There is almost no military situation in Battletech that cannot be solved with the application of more Starslayer. Niops can just get the blueprints from Blue Star in a black bag job. :P

Few are the problems that cannot be solved by suitable application of multiple Starslayers.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #379 on: 19 October 2013, 04:52:08 »
I'm trying to remember if we opened that up to discussion for TacOps/StratOps, or just proceeded to run screaming into the hills of Montana to hide in a cabin if anyone even mentioned the concept.

It would be the only way to save the ACs from irrelevancy in fighter combat...

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I wonder...would that work for the Kanazuchi?

Yes it would. Afterall the Germans just took those Czech tanks from Sudetenland and changed them to Panzer 35/38(t).

Quote
Nope.  Different beasties.  The Enforcer blueprints were found in 2777, and put into production.  The Enfield was found in 2870, and couldn't be produced for much later.  There were strong similarities, though.

As for standardization, it does have a downside: you run the risk of production bottlenecks if there's a problem with any one component.  Take the Black Knight/Eagle combo.  Both use the 300 Vlar, both use standard armor and heat sinks, both use large and medium lasers, and there's even a Marik version of the dumbed-down BL7-KNT that swaps the PPC out for another large laser.

What happens if the fusion plant gets damaged in a raid?  Or the large laser plant?

One answer might be that it might be better to put one production group on each planet:  one fusion engine, one ASF/'Mech/vehicle produced that use it.  While that means dividing up your forces, you have to do that to garrison each world anyway.

I see. I wouldn't worry about the original Enforcer anyways, with all the great variants.

But I think the benefits of standardization far outweighs diversification for a beginner army. Field repairs and training the techs are made easier. Of course, once Niops becomes sufficiently advanced again, diversification would be a good thing.

Quote
Yep, pretty much.  The biggest problem Niops has is that, even at Star League tech levels, the rest of the Inner Sphere has long since surpassed their tech base.

It's alright. They can always buy Savage Wolves or Mad Dog IVs from the Sea Foxes if they wanna get serious ;D

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #380 on: 19 October 2013, 07:08:33 »
so your not thinking of building the battlearmor they had been building up to the jihad times?

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #381 on: 19 October 2013, 09:34:56 »
Nope...it would be nice as a supplement to the Fa Shih but I don't see them doing much good on their own...

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #382 on: 19 October 2013, 10:18:49 »
so your not thinking of building the battlearmor they had been building up to the jihad times?

Unless they can field enough Nighthawks for every infantryman, the suit is just too underperforming for the 3145 battlefield.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #383 on: 19 October 2013, 11:44:18 »
Yup. A PA(L) can only do so much...

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #384 on: 19 October 2013, 16:48:43 »
You can always buy bucket-armor (Ravager) or Marauders in the weapons market, if not from the MH, from the TC.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #385 on: 19 October 2013, 17:45:14 »
Well, yeah, we could buy lots of stuff. Until someone decides they want to stop selling it.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #386 on: 19 October 2013, 18:44:24 »
Well, yeah, we could buy lots of stuff. Until someone decides they want to stop selling it.

Heck, i think you could produce the ISBA, it is so old and distribuited that i think that, with some help from IE, you could get the schematics.
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #387 on: 19 October 2013, 23:46:44 »
Might as well get the Amazon if you want the ISBA. I don't see the Canopians saying no to Niops about it

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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #388 on: 20 October 2013, 00:29:08 »
Isn't that one of their prime local designs, though?
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Re: Empire of the Nerds: The Niops Association Thread
« Reply #389 on: 20 October 2013, 00:37:19 »
Yup. But analyzing this from the Canopian perspective, granting Niops an Amazon production license would:

a) pump more cash in the Canopians' famous "money goes" economy
b) prop up a faction in the area to restrict neoLeague & Marian influence
c) the fact that Niops has no expansionist desires would prevent any blowback of this policy
d) improve Niops-Canopian relations and open up more trade/scientific exchanges

The way I see it(from a Canopian perspective), this is a win-win situation