Why did the Blood Spirits attack the Vipers?

[Akalabeth]

War of Reaving Spoilers.

Now I've not read the whole thing, every time I pick up this book (Wars of Reaving) I get fed up and have to put it down.


But from what I understand:
Star Adders bombard York from Orbit
Star Adders bombard Albion or some other city from orbit as well.

Then few months later.
Someone calls for Reaving against Steel Vipers. The Blood Spirits vote no
Someone calls for Annihilation vs Steel Vipers. The Blood Spirits vote no again

Then the blood spirits attack the vipers alongside the Adders and lose a bunch of mechs from ground fire? Why?

After what the Adders have done, one has to wonder why the Blood Spirits would be in the same room with them let alone attacking the Vipers when they've voted no not once but twice. They vote no out of principle yet where are those same principles when the trial begins and they're fighting alongside their hated enemies anyway?

Or even earlier on the Blood Spirits attack the Fire Mandrills, Matilla-Carrol I think, one of their very few allied clans at least historically.
And previously I've also mentioned that the Cloud Cobras are supposed to be "allies" to the Blood Spirits but continually screw them over anyway.

Whole story just strikes me as dumb because the clans act completely contrary to what one would think their motivations would be.

[Alan Grant]

Its been a while since I dug through this book so I had to consult it to find some useful tidbits of information.

The Blood Spirits bombarded Albion as well, leveling two cities (page 123). Albion was a mess. At least a 3 way Clan fight, plus Dark Caste/Society stuff actively happening on the ground, armed lower castemen in total uprising. The Cloud Cobras bombarded it, then the Blood Spirits did. In fact the Blood Spirits regarded the Albion operation as a success by mid 3073 (page 133).

The Spirits then moved on Tokasha and seized a large part of that important world. They were working to secure the rest of it when the Steel Vipers showed up and were surprised to fight them there. So the Blood Spirits were forced to fight the Vipers for the planet.

When the Steel Vipers attacked Tokasha it was a bloodbath for the Spirits. The Vipers refused to take any bondsmen or allow the Spirits to surrender. They wiped out three Spirit galaxies. IlKhan Andrews killed Boques in a Circle of Equals. Then IlKhan Andrews went on to declare the other Clans and their enclaves on Tokasha to be tainted, he had the warriors of those other Clans watching the Circle of Equals executed, then did the same with lower castemen in those other enclaves (possessed by the Horses and the Scorpions I think).

I read this and it makes me wonder if Spirit hatred of the Vipers grew exponentially overnight as a result of these events. Did the Blood Spirits hate the Adders? Sure. Did they eventually come to hate the Steel Vipers more? Now that's the question and I suspect the answer may be yes. And the Spirits later had the chance to do something about it and join in the anti-Viper feeding frenzy.

Its also important to note that the Blood Spirit leadership actually changed hands in the middle of all of this. With new (or in this case, returning) leadership, comes new perspectives, new strategy and new policy as to how things will be done at the Clan leadership level.

As for a call of Reaving or Annihilation against the Steel Vipers, I can't find any other vote or call for a vote in the book except the one that finally brought the Steel Vipers down and got them killed. I can't find a reference to an earlier vote, let alone the Spirits voting against it. I'm not saying its not there, I'm just not finding it.

In general, I read the Blood Spirits' actions during this period as an attempt to seize on the chaos, and with the HPGs down they decided not to wait for potential allies, they moved fast and tried to do it alone. In normal times, the Blood Spirits would have had difficulty securing a lot more territory, especially important worlds like Tokasha. But when the Homeworlds went into a state of chaos, they apparently went on the offensive and tried to grab all that they could, even from potential allies like the surviving Fire Mandrills whose long term survival prospects were shaky at best.  I think the Blood Spirits hoped that by the time the chaos settled, their Clan would be at a historic high in terms of territory and resources and already digging in to keep it. Ultimately this effort cost the Spirits too much, especially on Tokasha. And they earned the mutual hatred of at least most of their fellow Clans by arming lower castemen, which seems to have made events like the bombardment of York justifiable in the eyes of everyone on the Grand Council.

[Archangel]

I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.

[Alan Grant]

I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.

This is very true.

[Akalabeth]

I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.

Yeah but attacking the vipers was even inconsistent with the same information on the same page. Open annihilation vs the vipers, Blood Spirits vote against both motions but still participate. Bizarre.
Open doesn't normally mean mandatory .

[rebs]

It was a first-ever open Annihilation.  The Adders, very pragmatically, didn't want to go it alone, but knew it must be done.  I have no idea why the Blood Spirits joined in on the attack, other than acting as a Clan together with other Clans, even if they hated one of them, and disagreed with the votes. 

But on the other hand, the Cobra/Blood Spirit correspondence and alliance as detailed in FM: Updates was said to be of relatively minor nature, other than being their first contact with each other in ages.  The timing seems suspicious to me, that the Cobras would not be above "allying" the Blood Spirits only to quietly sell the Blood Spirits out to their allies, the Star Adders.  That would be very Cobra of them, IlKhan Khatib approves.

Not everyone reads things the same way, but I felt it made sense even before the WoR. 

[Alan Grant]

They actually brought McKenna's Pride out of retirement for the Viper annihilation. Every Clan got in on it. It was not a typical Trial of Annihilation by any measuring stick.

I still think the Spirits had a score to settle here. Khan Troy Boques and 3 galaxies of warriors and whole Spirit enclaves were wiped out using what the Spirits considered Dezgra tactics and guidelines ("take no bondsmen, leave none alive") on Tokasha not long before this. The Viper intervention also robbed the Spirits of a heavy presence on that important manufacturing world after they had fought and bled to take it. This whole affair hadn't long ended by the annihilation, it was fresh on their minds. One way to read these events is this, "The Vipers robbed the Blood Spirits of their destiny to become one of the leading lights in the Homeworlds". That deserves payback.

Blood for Blood.

[cold1]

I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.

Which clan just randomly did something out of character for no good reason?  There was plenty of previous canon to support the changes several clans went through.

The end game was somewhat predestined.  However, every single remaining clan on each side of the blockade is a strong clan and all have histories of rational decision making and solid leadership.  The clans that survived make sense and how they survived also works fine.

The Spirits voted against the Viper Annihilation for one reason, the Adders proposed it.  They voted against every single Adder motion wholesale.  Why is that hard to figure out?

As for why they fought in the Annihilation, it seems they hoped that working with the rest of th clans would help them.  Why they chose to fight so recklessly I do not know.  Maybe they hoped if they went all rage on them and won they would earn respect.  It was not a smart play.

In a massive war of all factions it makes plenty of sense that the smallest and weakest faction would lose if it chose to go it alone.

[Akalabeth]

Which clan just randomly did something out of character for no good reason?  There was plenty of previous canon to support the changes several clans went through.

The end game was somewhat predestined.  However, every single remaining clan on each side of the blockade is a strong clan and all have histories of rational decision making and solid leadership.  The clans that survived make sense and how they survived also works fine.

The Spirits voted against the Viper Annihilation for one reason, the Adders proposed it.  They voted against every single Adder motion wholesale.  Why is that hard to figure out?

As for why they fought in the Annihilation, it seems they hoped that working with the rest of th clans would help them.  Why they chose to fight so recklessly I do not know.  Maybe they hoped if they went all rage on them and won they would earn respect.  It was not a smart play.

In a massive war of all factions it makes plenty of sense that the smallest and weakest faction would lose if it chose to go it alone.

Eh, if I was a Blood Spirit Khan, after what happened at York I'd be the one pulling a laspistol at the Grand Council and the two guys getting shot through the head would both be Star Adders.

[cold1]

You're forgetting that no other clan truly gave a crap about the Spirits.  They shut themselves off so deeply that literally the only clan who cared was the Adders.  Laser pistoling the Adder khans would have resulted in their open destruction a decade early.

It's why the Adders knew they would get away with it.  The other clans were basically like "poor form old sport, refrain form that behavior please" and that was it.  No one could declare a trial against the Adders and hope to win against the Snake alliance at that point.  The Adders held all the cards and played them.

Might least favorite part of the entire WoR book is the razing of York.  I like the Spirits and I would have rather there been a real fight.

[Archangel]

Yeah but attacking the vipers was even inconsistent with the same information on the same page. Open annihilation vs the vipers, Blood Spirits vote against both motions but still participate. Bizarre.
Open doesn't normally mean mandatory .

First, it is never explained why the Blood Spirits opposed the Reaving of the Steel Vipers.  For all we know it might have been simple pragmatism.  After all Reaving the Vipers would have broken their power base and then there would be nothing to prevent the Star Adders from turning their attention to the Blood Spirits.  With York devastated beyond recovery and their touman having sustained crippling losses during the Wars of Reaving, the Blood Spirits would be unable to hold off the Star Adders' assault.

Second, it is not stated that the Blood Spirits opposed the Steel Viper Annihilation.  What is stated is that the Blood Spirits opposed was the Star Adders' motion to open the Viper Annihilation to all the Clans.  Semi Kalasa speculates that their opposition was on general principle.

Third, as previously stated, the Blood Spirits' touman was extremely weak.  Their participation might have simply been an attempt to appear stronger than they actually were.  To appear otherwise would have invited the other Clans to take advantage of their weakened state and potentially led to them being absorbed or annihilated themselves.  By appearing stronger they could have hoped to buy enough time for their military to recover at least part of their strength.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Spirits simply voted "no" as a matter of doing everything opposite the Adders. As far as I can tell, everyone behaved consistently during the Wars of Reaving. Even the Spirits' OOC moment at Arcadia with the Bears happened due to Schmitt's arrogance.

[DarkSpade]

I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.

This immediately reminded me of some of the corny show ideas they come up with on the history channel.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,31591.0.html

[Savage Coyote]

Yeah, I felt it was one of those things that the Spirit leadership accurately read:  if we don't participate in the Annihilation, we invite the same on ourselves.  Abstaining was the same as siding with the Vipers, and the political winds dictated "if you aren't on our side, you die."  They would oppose every single Adder motion just because, but when it came to participation, they had to.

[wantec]

Yeah, I felt it was one of those things that the Spirit leadership accurately read:  if we don't participate in the Annihilation, we invite the same on ourselves.  Abstaining was the same as siding with the Vipers, and the political winds dictated "if you aren't on our side, you die."  They would oppose every single Adder motion just because, but when it came to participation, they had to.

The Spirits voted against the Adder proposals simply b/c the Adders proposed/pushed them. At the time, precedent in the Clans was that whoever proposed an absorption/annihilation would get to carry it out and they would get all the resources that remained from the defeated Clan. Since the Adders were the biggest power all the Clans had assumed that the Adders would be picked to carry it out. The Spirits still remember how things turned out for the Spirits the last time the Adders got to execute an absorption/annihilation.

As to why they would jump to the front of the invasion force? The Clans as a whole have typically favored bravado, look at Tukayyid, most clans fought and bid down their forces for the right to be the first ones to land and attack. The idea that winning quickly (well winning is assumed) and with the least number of forces (even if those forces get pounded) for many Clans outweighs any potential strategic losses from your force getting pounded. The Spirits at that point still believed in this idea and felt that when they won their objectives quickly, they would gain stature and standing with the rest of the Clans.

[cold1]

And again, the Spirits did not see the fundamental need to change the way of the clans or their own view there of, resulting in their touman getting smashed to bits.

The Spirits do everything the Spirit way whether it works or makes sense.

[rebs]

I think that second part can be said about most Clans that have perished.  They road their dogma to their grave when they couldn't change with the times. 

[Gaiiten]

I think that second part can be said about most Clans that have perished.  They road their dogma to their grave when they couldn't change with the times.

 [applause]

[Akalabeth]

I think that second part can be said about most Clans that have perished.  They road their dogma to their grave when they couldn't change with the times.

I don't think the Blood Spirits killing a bunch of Adder civilians or whatnot counts as sticking to their dogma (or was it warriors? same difference).

Thing is the Star Adders and possibly others performed acts that are now only rivalled by the "mad Jade Falcons" of the Dark Age. Bombarding worlds from Orbit? I can see the last hidden world being somewhat justified as they actually fought on the ground, but destroying York without any pretext of a real ground invasion. It's as un-clan like as one can get and yet no one bats an eyelash.

[rebs]

But their lust to be hiden, separate and alone was yet another thing that infuriated the rest of the Clans, especially the Adders.  A desire to be free, perhaps.  Certainly free of the rest of the Clans.  Except for their Strana Mechty presence, and the fact that it details in WoR that the Blood Spirits were attentive to matters in the Grand Council in the times before their discovery in the Colleen system and ensuing destruction, the Spirits hid from all Clans.

They also bombarded a few sections of Albion during the WoR itself, armed their own civies and those of any freshly liberated areas. (which bit them on the arse, also on Albion, iirc, when the civies attacked them)  The Adder civilian castes seemed to always have timely and convenient access to weaponry too, so it balances out a bit.  It helps that the Adders claim the civs arm their selves out of loyalty and duty, basically, and won't punish them. But regardless of this, all of the Clans became annoyed by this tendency on part of the Spirits, the Coyotes and the Stone Lions were the ones to bring their complaints of unclanlike behavior to the Grand Council.

As you say, both sides are guilty of many of the same things.  I agree, that the Adders are so flexible that they could have become targets themselves.  It says at several points in the WoR that the Adder Khans were indeed wary that Andrews would turn on them.

How this relates to the Spirits vs their once-upon-a-Klondike pals the Vipers, I think can be summed up as...  it does not. 

But I like the discussion thus far, and I think it is covered quite well by several good points above by other posters.  As you see, I also feel that they were simply doing their duty so as to not arouse suspicion about their move to Honor and Haven.

[Stormlion1]

They may have voted No, but the Trial was approved. They then went with the Clan's Councils Decision. And it cost them far too much in my opinion. Losing what they lost as far as I am concerned doomed the Blood Spirits. They couldn't make up there losses after the Viper Annihilation.

[Decoy]

TBH, the Coyotes were worse off than the Spirits. The only thing that saved the Coyotes was the fact that they were willing to work within the system.

Imagine what would have happened if the Blood Spirits had accepted the Stone Lion's initiatives. (There's no need for an either/or  here) Would they have been on the way to rebuilding while the Stone Lions and the Coyotes turned to nibble on the Goliath Scorpions instead?

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Scorpions were in the Imperio by then.

It's funny how the Clans using orbital bombardment en masse during the WoR are so unacceptable by a lot of Clan fans. Yes, it is extremely un-Clanlike, but in hindsight, perfectly in character. Let's not forget who their ancestors are, and that the SLDF perfected mass saturation bombardments on a whole war front and employed NBC weapons just as frequently. Nicholas Kerensky himself even authorized Cyrus Elam to execute "Case Omega" during Klondike, so there is pretext for the Clans' WoR actions.

[Stormlion1]

Using during the WoR was one thing. Using it afterword's went against the pale. Essentially the Star Adders have made orbital bombardment a normal part of the bid process now. Not exactly a resource conserving measure the Clans are noted for.

[GhostBear]

Using during the WoR was one thing. Using it afterword's went against the pale. Essentially the Star Adders have made orbital bombardment a normal part of the bid process now. Not exactly a resource conserving measure the Clans are noted for.

Using WarShip support was always part of the bid process, until Turtle Bay.

[Archangel]

TBH, the Coyotes were worse off than the Spirits. The only thing that saved the Coyotes was the fact that they were willing to work within the system.

Imagine what would have happened if the Blood Spirits had accepted the Stone Lion's initiatives. (There's no need for an either/or  here) Would they have been on the way to rebuilding while the Stone Lions and the Coyotes turned to nibble on the Goliath Scorpions instead?

The answer would be no.  As far as the Blood Spirits were concerned, the Stone Lions and the Coyotes were trying to destroy them by seizing control of what few manufacturing facilities the Spirits had left.  Without them the Spirits would be unable to rebuild any modicum of strength.

[Stormlion1]

And how often was Orbital Bombardment used prior to the Clan Invasion? Not including Klondike. Warships were used against other warships, and very rarely. While they were used during the invasion and included in the bidding process, not one example do we have of a warship being used for bombardment. Turtle Bay wasn't even used against a opposing force, but a rebellious planet and even the other Clans considered the use of bombardment as going to far.

[Archangel]

And how often was Orbital Bombardment used prior to the Clan Invasion? Not including Klondike. Warships were used against other warships, and very rarely. While they were used during the invasion and included in the bidding process, not one example do we have of a warship being used for bombardment. Turtle Bay wasn't even used against a opposing force, but a rebellious planet and even the other Clans considered the use of bombardment as going to far.

Warships were the Clans' Ace-in-the-Hole if they came across something they couldn't through conventional means.  Like nuclear weapons, their greatest benefit was their intimidation factor rather than actually using them.  Besides orbital support wasn't the only way warships can or were used.  They were also used (as orbital observation platforms) to help keep track of enemy units, escorts for the invasion force and interdiction purposes.

[Alan Grant]

I think the increase in orbital bombardment can be contributed to two things: The issue of burning out "taint" in the WoR era, and the breaking down of Clan Zell in around and before the WoR.

And the book WoR supports both and takes time to explain both. We see Strana Mechty burning (some genetic repositories were even destroyed by orbital bombardment), we see Zell being discarded whenever it is deemed convenient and the enemy considered dezgra, chalcas or tainted (take your pick or take all three). We see Clans finding justification to burn out tainted units/enclaves, even genetic repositories, because they were tainted, or a nest of revolting lower castemen or Society types.

In the 3060s, FM: U supports the fact that we see an increase in warship use. Not in bombardment at that stage, but in space combat. Just a few years later that went to the next step.

If what the Star Adders did on York was a standalone incident. If it hadn't been soon followed by a Grand Council ripe with indecision, and a Clan society at a tipping point of fear, it might have been a bigger deal, it might have brought on more of a response from the other Clans (though...what response did the Clans give to the Turtle Bay incident? Not much...). But instead it was quickly intermixed with an era of broken down communications, chaos and warfare and even viral plagues in the Homeworlds the likes of which nobody had seen in centuries.

I have no doubt the Blood Spirits continued to hold it close to their minds and hearts. But I'm not sure anyone else really cared, especially by the beginning of the Viper annihilation. By that point all the Clans had blood on their hands and they were desperately trying to move past it all and rebuild a crumbling civilization.

[cold1]

Using warships for fire support has always been part of the bidding process, it's just likely the first thing to go in a bid.  So clan A attacks clan B, clan B breaks zell so clan A fires on them from orbit is technically ok.

Clan A brings a flotilla in over clan B's homeworld and proceeds to systematically turn it into a wasteland... not ok. 

But if clan A is the biggest dog in the homeworlds and closely allied with the next two biggest dogs, and clan B is a small clan that acts like they hate everyone else and has irked pretty much every other clan... well that right there is a loophole.

I don't want anyone to think I am saying the Adders were right in their treatment of York, it was unclanlike; and as much as I think WoR is the best BT work ever, I didn't like the decision to go that route.  I do think the bombardment of the Colleen planet was acceptable.  The Spirits were going to fight to the death, and it would have been more wasteful for the Adders to fight a long ground war.

The only way the Spirits were going to survive the WoR is if they directly asked the Adders for forgiveness for intervening in the Burrock Absorption and then sworn off the blood feud.