Author Topic: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?  (Read 14066 times)

Dave Talley

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #30 on: 08 March 2014, 19:21:50 »
oooh

thats a pain, start over, 3025 perifery limit points so that nobody is better than a knight and dont
allow wealth as a starting ability, and get one of the followers some rank

make him the CO, granted in this case he is simply a CO of a demicompany of marginally functional mechs,
if they end up wealthy its because they earned it
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Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #31 on: 08 March 2014, 20:09:26 »
Sounds like a plan.   Tomorrow (sunday) will be if I can get that suggestion to take hold.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

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Dave Talley

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #32 on: 08 March 2014, 20:27:56 »
either that or conscript thier unit for active duty,  they are nobles, they are in the military, send to whoknowswhere and while off planet have a scandal of some sort, the govt sends
in a caretaker govt and they are completely cut off from any on world money/assets
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
JA Baker

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #33 on: 08 March 2014, 21:03:21 »

The thing is...  the Alpha noble is a manipulator to say the very least. 
  Which House? This guy would be left alone in the Draconis Combine or Capellan Confederation. Steiner and Davion do not tolerate the abuse of their citizens, hence when one of my players executed Lyran rebels, Melissa Steiner personally ordered him to surrender all of his landholdings in compensation. Lyran citizens, even rebels, have rights.

Quote
Beta Noble.   An industrialist to say the very least.
  Business and trade are voluntary social exchanges. Resorting to violence establishes the kind of negative reputation that is difficult to mitigate. No amount of PR front could erase facts -They may mollify the sheep but other industrialists aren't sheep.
  Overcautious practices and paranoia means heavy investment in security and redundancy which raises overhead. Maximizing profits entails risk as well as trust. A player that tries to stack the deck may find one or more competitors joining forces to stack the deck in their favor. An example would be the Microsoft antitrust lawsuit.

  What would make things interesting is a third party instigating a conflict between the two nobles, perhaps two diametrically opposed political factions that would call upon them to wage a shadow war against each other.
  In my campaign, which is in 3055, the noble players are being approached by Katherine supporters to recruit them. Most of them have no respect for Victor.
 

 

Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #34 on: 08 March 2014, 21:31:42 »
I think you are worrying a bit to much about it. Or at least, it sounds like these people are going to rule in a vacuum.

The thing about these nobles is that they arent that powerful and they arent that rich. Sure they could buy 6 3025 locusts in a year. But a year is alot of time and half company of locusts arent that useful. They also have to be able to buy their crap mechs. Which they probably cant.

If they want to commit atrocities thats cool. I hope the ruling house doesnt find out and their people dont hang them by their shoes.

The most important part of gming is that everyone has fun.

But they dont have to always get their way for them to have fun and if their fun isnt fun for you things are still going bad.

What kind of story do you want to tell? Lets figure out how we can fit their characters into your narrative.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #35 on: 08 March 2014, 21:38:47 »
Also one suggestion for funsies. Ask them both to take the "heir" trait and make them rulers to be of the same world. Tell them it will centralize their campaign.
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idea weenie

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #36 on: 08 March 2014, 23:44:31 »
These two who are wanting to be nobles distrust each other across all the various characters they have ever made in the 10+ years I have run for them but they always will band together against an external threat.  Only if one of them goes off the deep end of stupid will they slit the other's throat or there is no other threat but the other one.   But since the BT universe is chalk full of threats, getting them to stab the other will be hard.

The thing is...  the Alpha noble is a manipulator to say the very least.  This guys has been gifted with a silver tongue and the skills to make up a character to back it up when you call their bluff with a dice roll.    So trying to paint him as an incompetent will be hard because he is at home in the courts.   He has a near KGB attitude towards problems, believes in spies and black ops, and has no problems black bagging people and sealing them away in dungeons for the rest of time or lighting a village on fire if it means the problem is solved.   If given the chance, he will implement the Gestapo, with their brutality and short of an outside power invading, little chance for redemption for the populace.

Beta Noble.   An industrialist to say the very least.   While the other is a silver tongued demagogue with a dark side worthy of Grand Moff Tarkin, this one is a technocrat.   An efficiency expert who tends to over analyze the situation.   Prone to big purchases but only if those purchases have a very definable net-return or significant increase in capabilities.   So if I try to con him out money, he is going to want to make sure it has gone through all it's paces beforehand.   Prone to fits of paranoia and over-reacting when things start to go wrong.   Holds off on violence till there is little other option, preferring a defensive stance, ready to counter until pushed and then tends to push towards reducing the enemy that he has now deemed to be unreasonable to nothing more than dust under his boot, followers and anyone else who even bothers to resist post pushed to far being nothing more than bodies in a charnel house.   Willing to accept anyone who willing surrenders but don't shoot at him and then think you can beg for mercy after the fighting is over.   I know, I watched him do this trick on multiple occasions, mercilessly hunting a foe and all their followers down to the last little nock and cranny.

His paranoia is enough that in a world of giant battlemechs that can cloak, he half jokingly said that he would only ride around his planet in a super-heavy battletank to ensure his safety outside his estates.   The fact that I am not sure that he was really joking is the bad part because he showed up with the stats for the thing the next day... with price tag.

Turn them against each other.  A third NPC who plays on the fears of both.  They launch orbital spy satellites against Noble #1, and send spies against #2.  To go against #1, have someone point out that he is not improving his holdings, and might soon be reduced in scope if he doesn't make things better, like #2 is doing.  #2 is told there have been expandable spies caught, but the mastermind is still out there.

Make the two players paranoid of one another, and watch them tear each other apart.  After they have sufficiently torn each other's holdings down, the third NPC can come to the front.  Then watch their expression as they realize their own fears were the cause.

Col Toda

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #37 on: 11 March 2014, 17:52:05 »
For ATOW no .  A good mech costs more than 13 - 20 + million C-bills each . Even with high trait resources you may be able to buy a good mech once a year from your own resources but you have to have to be very successful to afford owning a jump ship and drop ship of your own .  The price of those are astronomical and no way can a merc company that does not have title to a highly populated and industrial planet can come close to fielding a war ship the crewing and overhead is insane . Having the money without having the access or connections to get what you need . In ATOW if you do not have the right vehicle ; custom ; or equipment trait you cannot get it as personal property .  You can get issued equipment above your trait but it is not yours it is the unit's . Weight Class of vehicle is treated as what weight class you can drive without penalty.

Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #38 on: 12 March 2014, 02:06:59 »
That makes a lot of sense.   With the way things are a bit nebulous at times, it always seems to be an oddity... like the artificial gates on certain things when there are easy ways to get them within the parameters given by the rules.   This has been a very educational experience.

And group update:  Using the information you all have helped provide me, straightening out a few errors and confusions to which I again say thank you, I did manage to convince one of the two, namely the KGB wanna-be, to step back from being a noble...  and the session went smoothly with only one.   It launched them into trying to unlock the 125 million a year threshold (which is where the original paranoia circled around) but at least it gave them a goal.   Again, thank you all for your advice... it was taken into consideration and utilized.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Snimm

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #39 on: 24 March 2014, 17:33:11 »
I would like to add to this discussion.

After you mentioned how "alpha and beta" your two would-be nobles tend to be, and always have been over your group's years of gaming, I would make it a point to make story arcs that every once in a while focus instead on one of the "follower" players' characters.  Force that player to take a lead role in making decisions (because his character is in that moment).

Especially, make it a point that the focused player is the one to make the decisions that most affect his character - heck, maybe your alpha males, for whatever storyline reason, are not there at that moment in time to have any influence over the focused player's decisions.  If you have to, send the absent PCs' players out of the room so only those players who are present in the story moment can influence the decision.

Of course, this kind of plot mechanic needs to be used wisely, as you don't want to alienate anybody.  But the point is not that you're trying to exclude anybody; you just want to ensure that your other players, once in a while, are the focus of the action.
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Minerva

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #40 on: 26 March 2014, 02:30:06 »
In my game all characters are Lyran nobles. At this level money doesn't count at all and it is all about connections.

Game functions on two levels.

First, they serve in a LCAF military unit which means that they are hauled where ever GM wants them to go. They are also all officers (one of them de facto BN XO and others as company commanders) so they have responsibilities such as dealing with local nobles and officials and fixing possible crises in HQ and behind battlefield. The battle planning is role played so nobles with best social status and most influence naturally determine where to go. However, there are also tons of problems in overall missions.

Problems so far dealt with include dealing with local regent who works for both sides, smuggling guns to local guerrillas while actually occupying the same city, helping Liao factory owner to reach his quota to gain favours, planning to entertain 13-year old noble girls,  negotiating with Kurita officers over fate of Kurita's blood relative, trying to avoid diplomatic incidents with Davion officers, dealing with Comstar intermediates during peace negotiations, planning commando raids and surviving numerous Supreme Command Inspectors and inquiries...

Second, they are also working for their own families. Naturally characters have plenty of weapons to do this. Essentially all have connections and are somehow aligned to deal with these issues.
Sari's mother is mistress of Frederick Steiner and Sari is mistress of Ceasar Steiner. This means that mother/daughter combo knows what both Archon Katrina and plotting Frederick are doing. They share this into within their family to align themselves for almost certain civil war to come. Her position is sealed with favours she does to earn and keep her position:
-She has helped Ceasar to gain his composure (well hidden fact that Ceasar -like all Steiners- suffers from occasional bouts of deep depression) which was caused by Aldo Lestrade's plot.
-She has also kept Ceasar's annoyingly observant relative -young girl who reports EVERYTHING- happy while he has been busy playing soldier.
For this she has also gained much:
-She has gained Ceasar's aid to crush a uppity Davion officer who war really rude (humiliation by duel).
-She heard details of Ardan Sortek being somehow important to Archon Katrina (while everyone else thought he was Melissa's pet kitten or something) and deducted increase in interstellar shipping (as Steiner and Davion families are becoming closer).
-She knows road to Melissa's good mood is some nobody noble girl Auburn. She used this to make her family come closer to Archon's favour.

And so on....

At level of being a noble the game is simply different. You are a operator who tries to increase your family's fortunes and uncover plots and use them to your own advantage.
 


 


StCptMara

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #41 on: 26 March 2014, 04:36:09 »
Two powerful nobles, with equal holdings? Remember, though, this is a FEUDAL game. That means that they
have people under them, and, since they only control a MERE planet, they have  the equivalent of March Lords,
Theater Commanders, etc over them. They have to keep both those above and below them happy. They keep
those above them happy by fulfilling their duties. They keep those below them happy by...giving them things to
make their lives better. How are they doing that? If they give nothing to their lowers, then..how long before those
lessers begin talking about doing something about them? And, of course, sure, they be paranoid, and have all
the complex secret police they want...the House's are better! And it KNOWS what they are doing. Does anything
they do make them look TOO ambitious? Like, maybe, they might be looking to move up the chain of nobility, and
might not have too many scruples about HOW they get up there?

Of course, as others have said, the era is important, as well. But, frankly, I think these guys have said the
kind of game they want. They want to play the political game. The worst thing about the political game is when
it is played by amateurs. And that is how the politicians around them will think..these guys want to play with
the big boys? Then the big boys will test them...and, frankly, they don't play nice in ANY House. Steiner will destroy
your prestige and name, Davion will destroy your reputation and your respect among the military. Marik will
get your people to revolt against you. Kurita will get you painted an enemy of the Coordinator. The Confederation
will get YOU black-bagged quietly, and someone new in your place and no-one will ever mention your name(if you
are LUCKY).
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Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #42 on: 27 March 2014, 14:47:11 »
Alright.   I have taken those comments down for notes though I believe I have shorted them in my descriptions.  Frustration at the time painted a poor picture of them.  One would see them only as short sighted monsters.  That is as far from the truth as one can get.   I painted with a broad brush to get the most basic of pictures of their problem characteristics illustrated.   My fault.   Now, several weeks and sessions have gone by and I can attest to one thing.

They are evil.   Not like megalomaniacal evil but Underwood/House of Cards evil.   Alpha noble player has blissfully stepped into the shows of the party intel officer/propaganda minister for Beta noble.   Beta noble is playing the long game, all smiles and niceties while to the surprise of the party, one of the party's passive players has stepped up to the role of bodyguard with a terrifying quality.   He is working hand in hand with former Noble Alpha and making a very smooth apparatus on planet.   Another is taking a bit of initiative and using his connections with Beta noble and his interests and actually started to branch out towards the industrial side of things, setting himself up for the planetary minister of industry once some more XP has been handed out to pad out his skills and finishes his term in the military.   That leaves only two who are really not getting in on the game but they are there just to really crack hands, in or out of a battlemech so as long as one of the other now four give them direction on who to punch, they are content to watch the game.

So in essence, using the information that they were not going to have 125m a year in personal spending cash, armed with the information of who within the Federated Suns is above them...  btw, the party nearly came to blows over which house they were going to serve but finally settled on House Davion in 3140 because... to quote the newly re-minted intel officer in his ...  They are a rotten house just needing to be kicked over with an addled leadership.   

So by depriving them of the much feared 125 million a year in personal spending, I inadvertently set them on a course where they will be trying to get that much desired goal and more.

This is not the first political game I have run over the decades so I am not in over my head here.   This game is unfortunately showing a very major problem of... well...  how to put this...   the RPG is garbage and very sketchy the moment you take the game away from a heavy military focus.   I gave them all the freedom to build what ever they want and they went in the exact opposite direction of traditional Battletech.

It also points out the very painful fact that there is literally NOTHING for running high level play.   My players do not accept the stock line that their planet of several hundred million people is barely able to do anything.   They make requests like 'How much do we actually make in taxes per month?  Per year?   What is our budget?   The trait says the money we get per year is PERSONAL income... not national income...  so how much are we paying to our lords in taxes?   How much do we have to work with for infrastructure and developement?   How much are we making off our lower nobles?  How do we determine their loyalty levels and improve our standings?   How many landed nobles do we have on planet?   How is the break up of the politics on world?   How hard would it be to nationalize?   Can this be made any more efficient?   We have a planetary network of communications right?   What major corporate interests are on world?  What are they wanting?   What is not being utilized?   How much will it cost to utilize those resources?  How corrupt is my planet in terms of black market dealings and smuggling?'

You know... all the things that a merc focused or house military focused game tend to gloss over.   most of those are RP problems...  no worries...  but having NO guideline to work with from official sources to fill in the holes...  except for sporadic descriptions and the dreaded specter of FASA-nomics.    It is a train wreck of an engine that was not built around supporting a dedicated non-combat focus.

Oh, and incase someone drops the 'just have an invasion land on their heads' idea...  they are already planning for that.   That is what half their questions revolve around... trying to prepare for and stop invasions.   Because they will not accept a passive population nor suffer incompetence as the party noble, our most wonderful Duke, has already sacked a landed Baron for not properly maintaining the roads and transport lines in the city that the Baron was in control of as an example to others that the old guard lazy attitude of the status quo will not be tolerated while the intel officer was busy rooting out who might have ties and sympathies with said Baron to tie up loose ends/quietly silence them/feel out loyalties of NPCs and members of the planetary nobility.  The Duke promoted a Baronet underneath up into the former Baron's position, complete with lands and titles with the expectations that the roads, rails, and airfields will be up to standard within the year.    For a first test, they are going into this with brutal but silk gloved efficiency.

So that is the update of the game.   Me... getting more grey hairs because there is no system for running planetary and higher level games.  Them... laying the foundations for scheming to get 125 million in cash per year at the very least, to earn noble titles for those players who don't have them to cement control of the planet in an iron but reasonable grip, and then build a base to begin aiming higher.   Because the party is not satisfied with the noble player being merely a Duke....  they can't ride those coat tails higher if he isn't higher ranked.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Dave Talley

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #43 on: 27 March 2014, 17:14:48 »
You are in the unenviable position of having to write and populate a whole different
level of play than 99% of games ever get to

Keep good notes, maybe a fan sourcebook is coming when you are done
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
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StCptMara

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #44 on: 27 March 2014, 19:53:51 »
I would tell them: You do not need to know the taxes, etc. That goes to supporting your demesne. That
amount that you get as personal income is what is left after all obligations are covered.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #45 on: 27 March 2014, 20:29:40 »
Man. Talk about a missed opportunity.

They chose the federated suns and you didnt plant them in the outback?  ;D

Anyways talk to us about it. What worlds have they got? Are they suffering from the cc and dc invasions? Because they should be. They should be seeing limited transportation as the fedsuns government pulls to deal with the invasions.

If you are worried about how much money they make depress their economy. Fedsuns strips jumpships for a war effort that also strips some import they rely on. With a lack of supply and a surplus of demand they will simply fall behind.

Maybe that planet has a great debt or a defecit.

What story are you trying to tell? What would you like to know about high level planets. I would like to help.
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Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #46 on: 27 March 2014, 21:05:54 »
Ah, but that would almost be a cop out.   They want to actually be rulers and not just be lazy about it.   In the past, some hand waving works but if presented by a threat...  especially creditable threats like interplanetary invasions, noble uprisings, peasant uprisings, and their ilk... they don't want to be passive about it and wait for it's arrival.   Sure, they don't want to handle the day to day minutiae but major things like what is their planetary defense budget... namely because one can't be expected to uphold a noble's role in both being the ruler of the world and still be able to uphold their duties to the Arch Duke above them.

Trying to work out the economics of how they can fulfill their requirement to provide taxes and troops to fulfill their obligations to their higher ups, they have been trying to pull back the panels to figure out how to produce better quality troops, to create a motivated population, to do more than just hand wave and accept the status quo like those who came before them.   They are trying to build power bases, instill loyalties that extend more than just an oath of service, and become more than just a meager little moon or world, another dusty blip on the map.

They recognized that without information like this, to back up their titles, they are just another noble who will get knocked off or who will flee off world to their arch duke the moment someone else comes in to knock over their castle and plant a flag... like so many other no name no one cares about nobles.   Giving them a canned 'this is your allowance' answer and then not letting them actually use the power of their title and property with the other players operating from the point of view of being their general staff/trusted minions is kind of letting a chance slip by.

And from previous kingdom and empire building games, the group is not too keen on raiding the national treasury too often unless it is a major project that will ultimately improve the kingdom and rarely if ever for personal gain.   So we won't be seeing an overly greedy, corrupt noble in charge here.   More like spartan and utilitarian as the party has already told the player who was frivolous and silly with his spending as a ruler in a previous game that he can't be in charge of any finances (he build a plethora marble and granite statues of himself and put them on every street corner so they would know who he is... party won't let that happen again.).

Kinda odd feeling to try to be shoe horning some kind of major engine like this into a game that has so often almost shrieked in terror away from this kind of examination... hiding being decrepit FASAnomics and other forms of fiat.   Then again, it is the accountant in me that demands systems that can be analyzed, dissected, and laid bare for examination... where GM fiat is tantamount to being borderline unforgivable and a criminal offense as GMs and Players should be using the same handbook.   If the GM can do it, so should the players and the steps to reach that conclusion should be reproducible if similar conditions are met.  In essence, if I can't give a proper explanation when called on some GM BS, I have no right to do it.


Now Kitsune413,

The world in question they have is Killarney.   Chosen because it is a completely nondescript world from what I could put together... so a blank slate.   It is coreward to the Fed Suns and still towards the outback but not close enough to the fronts for immediate threat of invasion from the CC and DC though the threat looms as the Duke's mother and her body guard were called up (player's choice of parent) for service (location not yet determined) and ended up like so many others... a nice red splatter on the wall... thus why a brat in his 20's is a noble of the rank of Duke (yay hereditary rules).

As the disasters of the invasion of 3143 and 3144 have not yet happened (yay for managing to keep some books out of the hands of players), that ball has not dropped yet though they can feel it... thus why the desire to actually rebuild/build up the planet.   They recognize the weaknesses within the Federated Suns, that their leaders are less than stellar...  they dream of the days of Hans and Victor... before the failures of the modern days.

The story I was hoping to tell was one of nobles leading their people against terrible odds...  to what ever end that they earn... though this has been hijacked and corrupted towards more of a Game of Thrones/House of Cards style manipulation/power gain or a rise of the state style agenda.

They realize that their ability to have interstellar traffic is going to be limited, the rumblings of war drums means that they are going to need to become self sufficient and able to support themselves.   They know of the ravages of the Jihad and wish to be able to weather that storm if it was to come again, in what ever form it takes.   They know that a single world with 'only' a half billion to billion people (as we have not been able to pin down a population) can do a good deal and there is room to grow and expand and utilize.   Since half the group are veteran 4X/Grand Strategy players... giving them an blank pallet to work only leads to crazy plans.

They are mostly asking all these questions because they are actually waiting for the other boot to drop.   They know something is going to go wrong, it always does, and they need information like this so they can try to pre-emptively mitigate the damages that are going to come when the inevitable war/withdrawing of troops and material happens.   They are needing to know how much they have to give and what rate of production of material they will be able to do.

BTW:  Here is the point play out for the world they got... as per what they spent.
Rank: Duke - +3 pts towards property
Reputation:  Well known across Fed Suns - +3 (Charismatic darling)
Property:  10 pts...  for a total of 16 pts towards his holding (where this whole problem originated).

So it was spent as follows:
10 pts for the moon/world
+1 for Water Rich
+1 for Agricultural
+2 for Heavy Industrial
Two points for who knows what...  they are just bonus I guess when playing with only 14 out of the 16 he has got.  I mean, I could move the world to a national border (-1) and still have him sitting at 15.   Where the world is now, I could actually hit him with a political scandal, Major and still have him riding high at 14.   He is literally insulated due to rules that to actually hit his personal coin purse/yearly personal stipend that I would need to unleash A) A major natural disaster + a major political scandal that he was actually part as that would lower his property score to a mere 8  or B) Conquer his planet and he still sits a comfy 10... and if he actually suits up to help defend before the planet is lost instead of just running in fear... he is still at a 13.

Yeah.   Gaming the system to ensure that his yearly spending cash will ALWAYS be there and why there almost needs to be an extension of the chart to get it higher than a mere 11.
« Last Edit: 27 March 2014, 21:08:10 by Khymerion »
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #47 on: 27 March 2014, 21:50:00 »
Well I think you have two major decisions to make right now,

First of all is killarny the planet you want them to be on? You dont have to compromise your vision of the game just because they want to have a game of thrones. Even if they are some scumbag nobles. You should decide quickly if you want the challenges they face to be an external threat (dc or cc) or something else.

Second and more important is that you need to flesh out your major character and that is this planet they are on.

Heavy industrial? Awesome. Thats a character, or a group of characters. The noble may own the planet. But this is the federated suns. Those businesses have leaders. Those leaders can be antagonists.

The characters 'own' the planet. They do not own people and corporations have an annoying tendency to 'be people'

What about the agriculture? Who owns these farms? What are they after?

What about the water? Is it purified by star league equipment? How is that equipment doing. That can be an antagonist.

Stop being worried about the money they make. Hell give them more money. Have the corporations try to buy them. Itdoesnt matter. The federated suns desperately needs mechs. So at best your nobles are going to spend crazy sums of money so that they can strap machine guns to agromechs.

The amount of money is no big deal unless you let it be an issue. Sure they can buy a lance of locusts. But that is an adventure. They have to find someone black market to get them to them. Black market locusts cost more money.

They are also piloted by dudes who arent the pcs. So if your guys are super crafty devious guys what about super crafty devious people working behind the scenes to expose them?

Your npc antagonists can be good guy hackers.

ITs important that your players have fun. But they can only get as much influence and power as you let them have. If thats what will make them have fun, then awesome, but if they are after power and influence make that the adventure.Make them earn it...

And tell the story you want to tell.

If the players arent going to do it then create some good guy nobles who are trying to do the right thing and overcome the troubles with the people. Sure your pc nobles will have to try to kill them and backstab them. But those nobles could perservere without killing the pcs. It can be a reverse adventure.

It could be crazy fun.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #48 on: 27 March 2014, 22:19:22 »
Another fun antagonist would be a good guy militia leader who jsu naturally sees through them and doesnt trust them.

Either let him hang and be an antagonist or have them support an evil militia captain to usurp him have a coup. Then after evil mcbaddy takes over have him be uncontrollable and possibly willing to try to take them down.

Juat remember, even if they can buy a million rifles they dont actually own the people they are going to equip them with.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #49 on: 28 March 2014, 09:18:32 »
You should also look into Jacob Banson as a case study. He was one of the richest people in the inner sphere. Far, far richer than your pc is ever likely to be. He also had aspirations on a system, rather than global scale.

One of the interesting things about banson is the amount of money he has and how much that amount of money did not help him build a mech.

He got a single chassis off the ground with l of his wealth and it was not a stellar example of mech technology.

Anybody remember its name? Been listed here before.
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Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #50 on: 28 March 2014, 09:24:46 »
Well I think you have two major decisions to make right now,

First of all is killarny the planet you want them to be on? You dont have to compromise your vision of the game just because they want to have a game of thrones. Even if they are some scumbag nobles. You should decide quickly if you want the challenges they face to be an external threat (dc or cc) or something else.

Second and more important is that you need to flesh out your major character and that is this planet they are on.

Well, the planet itself is rapidly becoming a character in it's own right.   Since the players would like to stay focused on their homeland instead of galavanting around all creation... the focus initially will be there till which point that I do decide that they have annoyed/stepped on enough toes to warrant a proper retribution.

Threats I am developing currently are a mix of domestic (old guard loyalists to the noble's parents/status quo), corporate (not everyone operating on planet is going to like the talks of nationalization), and external (the inevitable spies from abroad/higher ups).   In addition, a former player who can not make it to the games in person has volunteered to 'run' the Grand Duke that is above them...  another Machiavellian individual from olden days that I play a different game with so there is some work there.   This is a wild card character who may or may not be a friend or foe but the fact that he is doing this is being kept away from the players so they think it is all my planning (yay for knowing none of them come to this board).

Quote
Heavy industrial? Awesome. Thats a character, or a group of characters. The noble may own the planet. But this is the federated suns. Those businesses have leaders. Those leaders can be antagonists.

Already working on this to a degree.   There is a good mix of domestic companies that operate only on planet (IE:  Not the AAA interstellar megacorps) that are the current antagonists for the party at their level.   As I have not nailed down yet what major interstellar corps might be on world (it is hard to pick), the players have been patient in giving me time to develop this major challenge that lays before them but knowing how the player who is playing the noble has acted in the past, he will try to collaborate as much as possible...  think Rheinmetall or Krupp kind of deals.   Hasn't gotten the courage yet (lacking the powerful enough base) to offer such a deal but it will come inevitably... once the local corporations have been brought into line... depending how the RP sessions play out.

Quote
The characters 'own' the planet. They do not own people and corporations have an annoying tendency to 'be people'

What about the agriculture? Who owns these farms? What are they after?

Working on that slowly...  trying to map out the nobility that branches down to the lords who rule over the farming communities and how much feudalistic I want to keep it currently.  Since a few of the players are farming families IRL before moving on to different careers, they do have a some experience on how major large scale farming is done.   So this is being worked on and has come up as a concern of certain players.

Quote
What about the water? Is it purified by star league equipment? How is that equipment doing. That can be an antagonist.

Aquifers and minor purification of trace minerals for farming and smaller town and city needs.   Some star league level equipment needed to support the 'major' coastal cities to meet demands but it is moderately good repair.   This was immediately identified as a concern by the players... thus some questions determining towards how difficult to maintain and supplement with locally produced.  Costs are difficult to pin down for this level of equipment.

Quote
Stop being worried about the money they make. Hell give them more money. Have the corporations try to buy them. Itdoesnt matter. The federated suns desperately needs mechs. So at best your nobles are going to spend crazy sums of money so that they can strap machine guns to agromechs.

You are right, I should stop worrying...  it is kind of looking at a much bigger... problem is not the right word...  puzzle or project... and picking at the closest, most obvious part of it.

Quote
The amount of money is no big deal unless you let it be an issue. Sure they can buy a lance of locusts. But that is an adventure. They have to find someone black market to get them to them. Black market locusts cost more money.

They are also piloted by dudes who arent the pcs. So if your guys are super crafty devious guys what about super crafty devious people working behind the scenes to expose them?

Your npc antagonists can be good guy hackers.

I am perfectly sure that they are going to make a good share of their own enemies.   Things are just getting started to be honest.   They will inevitably create a few and they already have to some degree.   And a good hacker is always a good antagonist.

Now, as for the buy a billion rifles comment...  that is another reason they are asking me a ton of questions...  because they want to engender a sense of loyalty and pride in the population...  to make them motivated so that they can actually have a motivated populace to draw upon for recruits.   They know they can't get original flavor ComStar level of dedications... not from the Federated Suns... but they want better than a malaise attitude from the general populace.   This... I can play with...  because fanatics will always grow and with a good knowledge of history of how a certain other organization like what they have...

Quote
ITs important that your players have fun. But they can only get as much influence and power as you let them have. If thats what will make them have fun, then awesome, but if they are after power and influence make that the adventure.Make them earn it...

And tell the story you want to tell.

I am willing to give them the power they want... if they actually are able to proper earn it.

Quote
If the players arent going to do it then create some good guy nobles who are trying to do the right thing and overcome the troubles with the people. Sure your pc nobles will have to try to kill them and backstab them. But those nobles could perservere without killing the pcs. It can be a reverse adventure.

It could be crazy fun.

Oh trust me, in other campaigns... they actually have the problem of always feeling terrible about trying to deal with 'good people' because in their dealings... an honest person is so rare that they hate to kill them till they are forced to.   That really is a wonderful too.  They have no problem ever dealing with other corrupt people, other evil characters... they can relate to them and understand...  'noble' people are often so different and frustrating.  They love having them as supporters but rarely are able to understand them.   They are my favorite NPCs to create and play honestly.

But I will have to say, thank you for asking me these questions here...  it lets me think and crystallize some details that tend to just be floating about in my mind and points out directions that I need to think in.   I do appreciate it.

Addendum:   Thanks for the direction to look towards.   As a former fan of the Bannson's Raiders, I am familiar of him and I should probably refresh myself on his rise, failings, and problems.    And I don't put it out of the realm of possibility that at least one of the players has machinations to someday reach that level of power or greater (namely the former Alpha Noble).
« Last Edit: 28 March 2014, 10:31:34 by Khymerion »
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #51 on: 28 March 2014, 09:34:34 »
I meant to add one last thing.

Keep the planets tech level in mind. A heavily industrialized planet with a mediocre tech level rating isnt going to do them alot of favors in a military sense. If it is like most battletech worlds with a 20th century tech level then they can make some knock off phones or ground cars but building a 20th century battle tank is going to get pounded by an age of war tank which would get pounded by a 32nd century tank.

The house books all have example tech levels. As well as example worlds.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #52 on: 28 March 2014, 09:48:53 »
Also keep in mind a great portion of the planets industrial capacity is going to be in redundant enterprises. They have to make nails. If they dont make nails then they have to import nails, in which their supply of nails is dependant on the abundance of someone elses nail manufacturing. They have to clothe and feed their people. Build bricks. Build needles, to support their clothing the people industry. It wont be a planet of dudes waiting to build things. If they have lots of idle labor then they probably wouldnt be heavily industrialized.
Every man lives by exchanging - Adam Smith

Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #53 on: 28 March 2014, 10:39:37 »
Those are going to be good things to keep in mind when going into this.   Going to have to find a reasonable point to work with within realm of reason to be both fun to work with yet still present some limitation.   There is part of me that would seriously doubt if they would be able to get behind trying to raise up a TL A world into something worthwhile while an Age of War or Succession Wars era TL might be more believable for limiting them.   Still get access to some competitive/intro technologies but still needing to import higher level equipment...  give them something to shoot for/aspire to acquire.   Yes, that puts them in a lesser tier compared to front line worlds but considering their insulated location within in the realm, that gives them impetus towards having to make deals with the big interstellar corporate powers if they want to build up towards anything that might actually be taken seriously... assuming they can't make deals with the Arch Duke above them for assistance.

This will be an interesting Saturday with the Arch Duke's player and a very interesting Sunday with the players proper.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

guardiandashi

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #54 on: 28 March 2014, 16:42:14 »
I guess I am not evil enough ...

one thing I would tend to do is consider if this was an old star league world, or a long term davion or laio davion world,  if it was a star league world taken over by davion it might be heavily industrialized towards making something rather useless, (they have lots of factories to make shoes or ground cars or speeders or something and yay there is 3 speeders in every garage... but there is no capacity to make "real weapons" or armor, or similar.

now your players can try to change that but EVERYONE is gonna hate them if they do.

you know more sub plots

Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #55 on: 28 March 2014, 18:48:53 »
The world by map is too far towards the periphery, past New Avalon to be actually possibly a former Hegemony world.   It's proper location is the Crucis March, Regeman Combat Region near the border of the Point Barrow and Broken Wheel regions so definitely outside the boundaries of the Republic pre-black out.   So having it have a former Hegemony/SL crazy factory might be a bit of a stretch but...  their choices in neighboring worlds are about as equally nondescript.  Only 4 within jump range and 3 are deeper into the house while one is towards the periphery.     Perhaps a better world can be picked to work with... something to open them up to more danger.   Bah, so many worlds to chose from.

And more sub plots are always good.   It makes the balancing acts of personal agendas more interesting.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #56 on: 28 March 2014, 23:45:23 »
  One of my players wanted to be a planetary duke of a wealthy planet with a long, glorious history and I gave him all he wanted -Suk II, currently under Clan Wolf occupation.

All he has to do is liberate it... 8)

BTW, the populace is happier without him.

Minerva

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #57 on: 30 March 2014, 04:53:27 »
One of my characters recently got himself a title and player likes to play him seriously with more emphasis on his realm.

I am currently using a following mechanism (tailored to Lyran Commonwealth):
Each system that was part of Star League era has
1) Representative of lanet to Estates General (chosen by planet to represent itself by whatever method planet wishes as long as she is not in peerage).
2) Noble ruler (who is usually original owner/developer of the planet) with title of Duke (assume all Lyran planets in SL era were populous enough to warrant this title).

Then each planet has following noble structure:
1 Duke
2D6 - 1 Counts, each who who rule over continent.
2D6 Counts who are major land owners at planetary level who have gotten their titles through being plutocrats.
4D6 plutocrats with roughly same property as above mentioned nobles.

Each Continent has following noble structure:
1 Count
2D6 - 1 Barons, each who who rule over a "state".
2D6 Barons who are major land owners at continental level who have gotten their titles through being plutocrats.
4D6 plutocrats with roughly same property as above mentioned nobles.

Each Baron rules over something roughly equal to modern major state (10 to 50 million population).

Other titles (Marquis and viscount) are given on "as needed" basis.

For House Davion and House Marik the noble titles are tied to land and gained for performance in war. Roll normally for nobles with land. Then roll for plutocrats as 6D6 plutocrats at each level.
(I assume that there exists roughly 50:50 division between plutocrats and nobility in Lyran Commonwealth that uses very open nobility system.)

The population numbers are for pre-Succession War Levels and may be lowered by factor of 10 to 100 depending on place and GM fiat.
« Last Edit: 30 March 2014, 13:43:38 by Minerva »

Khymerion

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #58 on: 30 March 2014, 06:55:52 »
You know what...   that is a pretty good system to run with.   Thank you very much for sharing!  Especially less than 5 hours before I need to run today.   Time to break out the name generator and get to putting personality quirks to paper.   Again, thank you!
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Minerva

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Re: Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?
« Reply #59 on: 31 March 2014, 02:00:14 »
Another thing to consider is that no system is truly independent in Inner Sphere.

You can easily make assumption that land is initially kept by colonial venture financier and then by other interstellar concerns. This land is owned by planetary ruler if system has declared itself independent.

There is a long-term trend towards falling amount of ownership by initial interstellar concerns as they eventually need to reward more and more of their followers with titles and tracks of land. Simultaneously there is a long-term trend towards increase in ownership by rising interstellar concerns as they increase their power in systems due dynastic ties and fortunes of war and favour.

The off-world ownership falls towards roughly 30% of land in long term from 70% (this is rough distribution in invaded land in one medieval example).

Assume there are three off-world owners in land: Primary Interest, Secondary Interest and Tertiary Interest (Comstar). The percentages owned by various lords naturally depend on history of the system.

Use following guideline to set your interstellar empire:
I assume that all Interests are either:
a) Major public political entity such as Major Interstellar Empire (for example Lyran Commonwealth), Regional Interstellar Empire (for example Tamar Pact) or InterStellar Proto-State (numerous small co-operative factions that existed before Major Interstellar Empires).
b) Various smaller colonial ventures by small entities. <Venture> is foundation, religion, corporation, ideology, nation-state in Earth (like Austria) etc.


1) Was system colonized during Earth Alliance supremacy?

if System was part of original colonization drive the Primary Interest is either Earth Alliance or <Venture> with another being Secondary Interest if it existed.

Choose one of the following:
a) Primary 70% <Venture>
b) Primary 70% <Earth Alliance>
c) Primary 50% <Earth Alliance> and Secondary 20% <Venture>
d) Primary 50% <Venture> and Secondary 20% <Earth Alliance>

When Demarcation Declaration happened in 2242 each system outside 30LY radius became automatically independent.

Now system is ruled by either <Venture> or new independent planetary government.

Choose one of the following:
a) Primary 70% <Venture>
b) Primary 70% <Independent>
c) Primary 50% <Independent> and Secondary 20% <Venture>
d) Primary 50% <Venture> and Secondary 20% <Independent>

2) Was it created during Exodus?

During this time the various independent colonies were formed as Earth was facing steady exodus of population and colonization effort ran at wild pace. During this time the civilization reaches 150LY range.

At this time most new colonies are Ventures and local independent systems remain weak. Public concerns describe nearby independent systems colonizing to support themselves to become proto-states (for example Alliance of Galedon).

Choose one of the following for new colony:
a) Primary 70% <Venture>
b) Primary 70% <Proto-state>
c) Primary 50% <Proto-state> and Secondary 20% <Venture>
d) Primary 50% <Venture> and Secondary 20% <Proto-state>

3) How it became part of a Empire during Second Exodus?

If colony already existed during exodus, it eventually becomes part of a major alliance during chaotic colonization drive. Two major reasons are for being part of alliance are joining to a defensive alliance or a predatory alliance.

Ultimately these alliances form large interstellar empires (LIE) with far more power and several Regional interstelar empires (RIE) as its smaller parts.
 
Alliance forming also means that various local colonies have to give up certain amount of their resources to alliance. The local ventures eventually became normal part of local system and its government. Amount of power shift depends how agreeably alliance/empire and colony interacted during this time:

LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic)
--> Primary 50% (LIE) and 20% Secondary (RIE), 30% Local

RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic)
--> Primary 50% (RIE), 50% Local

RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (agreeable)
--> Secondary 20% (RIE), 80% Local

LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (agreeable)
--> Primary 5% (LIE), Secondary 20% (RIE), 75% Local

---

4) Did System change hands during empire formation?

The chaotic time of Second Exodus before Age of War finally colisondated the large interstellar empires led to situation where many systems changed hands for various reasons. Civil wars were common too during concentration of power to RIEs.

Use Step 3 to determine if system was part of numerous localized conflicts during time. Perhaps 1D6 - 4 traumatic events happened in this time. Otherwise assume that system continued without problems through these turbulent times.

For example some systems in Federation of Skye did not agree to colisondation of power to Marsden. These systems went through a civil war. Depict this as RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic).

5) Did system exchange owner during Age of War?

The first major interstellar war between RIEs was Age of War. During this times several systems exchanged owners.
Use RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic) to depict major invasion result and LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (agreeable) if there was a negotiated result.

6) How Succession Wars touched your system?

Most unfortunately the Star League ended with a brutal war and interstellar nuclear holocaust and near collapse of civilization with anarchy. The only hope was Comstar that maintained some resemblance of civilization admist brutal warlords.

This benevolence made Comstar moral compass of Inner Sphere and led to rapid increase of its power as it received any gifts and donations to support its efforts.

Simultaneously there was steady decline of power with all interstellar empires as warlords had to sell their land stakes and titles to raise money to wage war.

The collapse of RIEs was most remarkable during 1st Succession War while comstars power increased most durinng 3rd Succession War.

Assume that all interstellar interests sell off and gain donations at following percentages (do not reduce if stake is already 0) during Succession Wars:

RIE/LIE/Comstar
1st Succession War: -15% / -5% / +5%
2nd Succession War: -10% / -5% / +5%
3rd Succession War: -5% / 0% / +10%

Net gain in percentage goes to local lords in the system.

7) Were there are consequences of Jihad?

Invasion by Kerensky's barbarian hordes and Comstar's active participation in wars increased Comstars respect but these short terms gains were eventually wiped out and worse during its bloody schism that engulfed entire Inner Sphere (often called Jihad). Assume that many local lords simply took over Comstar's lands during this time.

-10% to Comstar's land ownership in Inner Sphere. This is a major source of local arguments during this era.

---

This system should be used to determine what percentage of power was ruled by which power during system's history as long as landowners are concerned.

For example after Marsden's bloody civil war the power in one planet you roll for all landowning counts:

LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic)
--> Primary 50% (LIE) and 20% Secondary (RIE), 30% Local

Roll 1D10: 1-5 (--> serves Archon directly), 6-7 (serves Duke of Skye directly), 8-10 (--> serves Duke of Planet) 

Now, assuming that it is end of Jihad the balance is:
--> Primary 20% (LIE) and 10% Secondary (RIE), 10% Comstar, 60% Local


The same method should be used to also Barons underneath these lords (naturally they serve Count above them).

End result is that you have a feudal pyramid where each lord is both tied to next upper level by chain of command yet also swears loyalty to a lord that totally different person. This means that you can have total confusion in chain of command due peculiarities of dynastic family inheritance, treason trials and fortunes of war...
« Last Edit: 31 March 2014, 05:10:57 by Minerva »