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Author Topic: WarShip of the Week: Defender  (Read 28654 times)

Welshman

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #180 on: 09 April 2016, 11:46:51 »
Welshman.  He commented in this thread that he figured that spheroids would be just too darn bulky.  He's probably right, but it doesn't appear to have made its way into the rules.

Can't even imagine what I was thinking at the time. :)

Spheroids are cool
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #181 on: 09 April 2016, 13:11:17 »
They are. They're also bulky. Of course, so are aerodyne wings.

Makes me wonder if the early dropshuttles were more compact/dense than later KF-boom-equipped DropShips, since outer volume was a bigger constraint.
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I am Belch II

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #182 on: 09 April 2016, 15:31:06 »
Great write up.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #183 on: 09 April 2016, 17:34:15 »
They are. They're also bulky. Of course, so are aerodyne wings.

Makes me wonder if the early dropshuttles were more compact/dense than later KF-boom-equipped DropShips, since outer volume was a bigger constraint.

Maybe flying boxes?  They could be classed as spheroids I guess if you had early craft all the same size/dimensions it would make arranging them inside easier

The biggest restriction might not be tonnage but instead floor space

Collars have no such trouble because there's no bay to fit inside

Wrangler

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #184 on: 09 April 2016, 23:29:17 »
I was looking at the XTRO: Primitives IV where the DroST IIs (vehicle/infantry carriers & Fighter carriers) early versions have record sheets for 2445 and 2470.  The tonnages remains same at 5,300 for all of them.  Making it impossible under current rules with interstellar Operations for them to be transported by DropShuttle.  Page 121 of the IO states only DropShips can be up to 5,000 each, a bay with a 10k capacity can only fit two DropShuttles aka primitive DropShips.

Quote from: Interstellar Operations, p. 121
Until the advent of the KF Boom and the corresponding “postboom” collars, DropShips weighing more than 5,000 tons could not be transported through hyperspace by any means other than as dismantled cargo. Even if the vessel possesses a naval repair facility of sufficient capacity, vessels carried within would still require a KF boom to enable transition through hyperspace. Efforts to jump while docked with a vessel that lacks a KF boom will automatically abort the procedure.


Defender or other ships of it's kind with unnamed DropShuttles Class of Primitive shuttles to handle duties of being transported.  Or having to reassemble dropshuttles too big for normal transport.  Which would be a major pain I can believe.   Maybe the last Primitives V will have DroST I-Class ships that haven't been specified how big they were tonnage wie.  Its really too bad.  I really like DroST IIs.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #185 on: 10 April 2016, 00:27:05 »
IIRC, isn't the Drost IIa from after the jump-booms were in use? the design may have gained a few hundred tons in the process of being updated to use the new system.

a Drost I, or a Drost II ("no bloody a, b, c, or d"  ;) )  might have been designed under 5K mass without sacrificing much, in order to allow it's use in dropshuttle bays.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2016, 00:32:06 by glitterboy2098 »

VhenRa

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #186 on: 10 April 2016, 00:36:33 »
No. We have specific IIa and IIb variants that specifically don't have a KF Boom. (IIa being troop transport and IIb escort assault dropship, same basic frame)

A and B seem to be subtypes of the same frame. In the same manner as LAVs often do today. There is no DroST II, except as talking about the series of DropShips of which the IIa and IIb are the two known subtypes.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2016, 00:40:54 by VhenRa »

Welshman

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #187 on: 10 April 2016, 00:45:14 »
As mentioned before, much of the Primitives series was written before we finalized the rules in IO. So some things will require errata.

When you build a game system back to front, sometime you break a few eggs. When you have a game system that is 30 years old and only on it's 3rd substantial edition of rules (not counting RPG), then you have to deal with some continuity issues.

Thanks for catching this, please report it in errata and continue to enjoy the ride that is BattleTech.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #188 on: 10 April 2016, 17:34:59 »
a warship with a ram prow and all its useful mass invested in SI and armor?

now you're just being MEAN.  Just because ramming was the go-to "Tactic" from the first warship conflicts of the FedCom civil war through the entire run of the Jihad...
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #189 on: 10 April 2016, 18:40:04 »
IIRC, isn't the Drost IIa from after the jump-booms were in use? the design may have gained a few hundred tons in the process of being updated to use the new system.

a Drost I, or a Drost II ("no bloody a, b, c, or d"  ;) )  might have been designed under 5K mass without sacrificing much, in order to allow it's use in dropshuttle bays.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #190 on: 11 April 2016, 05:22:05 »
So, just hypothetically, and really stretching what this thread is meant to be about, could you build a dropship with KF boom and a shuttle bay? I doubt the rules allow it, but "tack-on shuttle bays sounds like a market niche to me, around that time.  ;)
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #191 on: 11 April 2016, 09:23:26 »
They don't. DropShuttle bays are JumpShip and WarShip only.
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VhenRa

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #192 on: 11 April 2016, 11:11:45 »
Speaking of rules allowing it. I don't think that double up on Shuttle bay fix for the Defender will work. Isn't there a limit on number of Bays based on armor facings?

gyedid

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #193 on: 11 April 2016, 23:49:29 »
I was looking at the XTRO: Primitives IV where the DroST IIs (vehicle/infantry carriers & Fighter carriers) early versions have record sheets for 2445 and 2470.  The tonnages remains same at 5,300 for all of them.  Making it impossible under current rules with interstellar Operations for them to be transported by DropShuttle.  Page 121 of the IO states only DropShips can be up to 5,000 each, a bay with a 10k capacity can only fit two DropShuttles aka primitive DropShips.
 

Defender or other ships of it's kind with unnamed DropShuttles Class of Primitive shuttles to handle duties of being transported.  Or having to reassemble dropshuttles too big for normal transport.  Which would be a major pain I can believe.   Maybe the last Primitives V will have DroST I-Class ships that haven't been specified how big they were tonnage wie.  Its really too bad.  I really like DroST IIs.

I don't understand this ruling.  If a jump-capable ship is carrying 10,000 tons of cargo in containers, those containers don't need a KF boom, but a 5300 ton Dropship either needs a KF boom, even if it can be completely contained in the cargo bay, or has to be disassembled? 

Something just doesn't seem consistent about that.  What is there about an intact 5300 ton Dropship that would prevent the KF field from containing it, the way that it can contain any other object--living or not--inside the jumping ship?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Welshman

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #194 on: 12 April 2016, 00:52:02 »
Two simple words...

Game Balance

We can and have come up with plenty of in universe rules to explain it, most I don't recall right now.

However, at the end of the day it's all about balance. After we designed the Newgrange an internal guy said, "I wonder how many ASF you could fit into that bay?" That was a sobering thought and we moved to put in rules to keep from breaking the universe.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #195 on: 12 April 2016, 01:02:22 »
I don't understand this ruling.  If a jump-capable ship is carrying 10,000 tons of cargo in containers, those containers don't need a KF boom, but a 5300 ton Dropship either needs a KF boom, even if it can be completely contained in the cargo bay, or has to be disassembled? 

Something just doesn't seem consistent about that.  What is there about an intact 5300 ton Dropship that would prevent the KF field from containing it, the way that it can contain any other object--living or not--inside the jumping ship?

cheers,

Gabe

There's actually no rules against carrying a dropship internally as cargo (assuming you have the spare mass). Unloading it is an agonizingly slow process however (just like it would be for an internally carried ten thousand ton container). Any restrictions are purely fluffy.

As for dropshuttle bays, in universe I would suspect it would be a question of simply not mastering the engineering of building a launch bay large enough to accommodate anything larger. KF booms don't even come into it.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Welshman

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #196 on: 12 April 2016, 01:48:32 »
There's actually no rules against carrying a dropship internally as cargo (assuming you have the spare mass). Unloading it is an agonizingly slow process however (just like it would be for an internally carried ten thousand ton container). Any restrictions are purely fluffy.

There are rules limiting DropShips, Fighters and Small Craft in Bays. I think what you are talking about is putting a DropShip into the cargo bay of a WarShip. We'd need to make a rules ruling on that, it's possible the way we wrote the limitations on stuff in Bays may also carry over here.

From a very practical fluff reason though, it's not tenable, as other than Bay doors, cargo doors on WarShips are not made to fit a DropShip of any decent size.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #197 on: 12 April 2016, 10:36:32 »
There's actually no rules against carrying a dropship internally as cargo (assuming you have the spare mass). Unloading it is an agonizingly slow process however (just like it would be for an internally carried ten thousand ton container). Any restrictions are purely fluffy.

As for dropshuttle bays, in universe I would suspect it would be a question of simply not mastering the engineering of building a launch bay large enough to accommodate anything larger. KF booms don't even come into it.
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #198 on: 12 April 2016, 11:14:05 »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."

Can I sig that?

Why stop at Overlords?  I was kind of hoping there would be some way of having a Defender most unexpectedly disgorge a fully-loaded Vengeance during an engagement...but the recent discussion points to that not even being a possibility.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

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VhenRa

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #199 on: 12 April 2016, 11:17:30 »
Can I sig that?

Why stop at Overlords?  I was kind of hoping there would be some way of having a Defender most unexpectedly disgorge a fully-loaded Vengeance during an engagement...but the recent discussion points to that not even being a possibility.

cheers,

Gabe

Even if it could carry one... it would take an hour and twenty minutes to unload from a DropShuttle Bay.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #200 on: 12 April 2016, 15:58:36 »
There are rules limiting DropShips, Fighters and Small Craft in Bays. I think what you are talking about is putting a DropShip into the cargo bay of a WarShip. We'd need to make a rules ruling on that, it's possible the way we wrote the limitations on stuff in Bays may also carry over here.

Or primitive Jumpships. But I believe there was a ruling made at one point specifically allowing it. Though I don't recall the details.

From a very practical fluff reason though, it's not tenable, as other than Bay doors, cargo doors on WarShips are not made to fit a DropShip of any decent size.

Certainly. And even if they were, it would be painfully impractical to unload one. I'm pretty sure we'd be talking days to ease one out of the cargo bay (heck, maybe some of that time is widening the bay door and patching it up after you're done. :) )
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Dragon Cat

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #201 on: 12 April 2016, 16:59:30 »
Wouldn't huge cargo bay doors on the side or bottom of a ship destroy the structural integrity

Plus it's a massive open space designed to be vented to space it would be a nightmare to work around on any ship

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #202 on: 12 April 2016, 17:17:20 »
There's a lot of reasons why it's a bad idea. And really, by the time you've solved them, you've basically just created docking collars.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #203 on: 12 April 2016, 17:38:10 »
Wouldn't huge cargo bay doors on the side or bottom of a ship destroy the structural integrity

Plus it's a massive open space designed to be vented to space it would be a nightmare to work around on any ship
There is some leeway, but I think that 5000 tons is a good limit for that. 
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #204 on: 12 April 2016, 18:44:49 »
There's a lot of reasons why it's a bad idea. And really, by the time you've solved them, you've basically just created docking collars.
Armored Docking collars, though.
In case that drop ship is really precious.
Then again, I see no problem with designing the warship with 2 bays per facing, then spending the remaining capacity on collars.
As to get back to the defender, is it really all about placement regarding looks?
Just cram them in somewhere.
« Last Edit: 12 April 2016, 18:57:03 by UnLimiTeD »
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Defender
« Reply #205 on: 13 April 2016, 01:27:45 »
Can I sig that?

Why stop at Overlords?  I was kind of hoping there would be some way of having a Defender most unexpectedly disgorge a fully-loaded Vengeance during an engagement...but the recent discussion points to that not even being a possibility.

cheers,

Gabe
Sure!
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!