The Deep Periphery and the secrets that lie within it

[Moonsword]

Then what pray tell is the Nighthawk-(P)AL doing on Niops? If they can have it, why not this colony? After all, all you'll need is at least some technical expertise, and a workshop to make spare copies. And it was the Wolves that created the Multifunctional Standard battlearmor, not the Elemental itself.

TT

Niops isn't an exception to anything.  That's not a suit of battle armor in the same sense as the Elemental (and it's eminently clear what I'm talking about).  I misspoke when I said Tornado - I actually meant the Nighthawk - but it's clear that I was specifically leaving the power armor out of the equation.  They also, as you noted, didn't develop anything.

I disagree. Of course, I haven't given the full details of the colony and all that it has. The tech level is not as high as that of the Clan. There is nothing there that didn't already exist in the Star League era with the exception of BattleArmor development and even that doesn't reach the level of the Clan tech Elemental suits.

You are assuming a lot more advanced tech than what is actually the case.

No, actually, I'm not.  The Clans don't do megastructures.  The Star League was more advanced than the Clans in that sense as is your colony, which is either on a par with or superior to the Terran Hegemony.  In addition, you still haven't addressed the population issue.  That's your number, not mine.

As far as being a superpower, what else do you call someone with six super-fortresses on a scale no one else ever built?  For the region, that's a superpower, just not one exerting force over its neighbors.

EDIT: To clarify, this probably isn't impossible, and I'm not saying it is.  But it is definitely implausible in terms of what we know from the rest of setting.

[durant]

the periphery is the place to new idea !
And one world (with advenced technology) totally closed to foreigner is not destabilizing the great play from the major house or clans, particularly that they must do a lot of choice for their technological devellopement, not like niops who do everything (in artisanal fashion)...

personnaly I can't say more about what is logical or not,because I'had created a lot more of hyperstate in the deep periphery ! Taurian alliance with 12 worlds (fleeing the sldf in the 26th century), cryan way 18 worlds (fleeing terra in the 25th century), a secret kurytan prefecture 8 worlds (founded in the 27th century)... I'have a lot more independant little worlds for my explorer team from davion ! and every house have an outpost in my periphery, with the end of the jihad comstar and wob will not keep the exclusivity anymore !  :P

[Maelwys]

Then what pray tell is the Nighthawk-(P)AL doing on Niops? If they can have it, why not this colony? After all, all you'll need is at least some technical expertise, and a workshop to make spare copies. And it was the Wolves that created the Multifunctional Standard battlearmor, not the Elemental itself.

Poor writing on the part of the authors really. Niops was interesting and plausible when they were hand building replacement parts for things they already had. Need a new hand actuator? Pull one off another design, and hand build one. No problem. Giving Niops the schematics for the Nighthawk changed that to "Oh, for some odd reason this research station has schematics on the most cutting edge tech that the Star League had to offer. So cutting edge and secretive that its existence was merely rumors, and was only deployed with its special forces."

It would be like the Antarctic Research stations having the schematics to the latest and cutting edge weaponry that the US has..and we're not just talking about the F-22, we're talking about the stuff that's still flying at night in the desert which gets mistaken for "weather balloons." Stuff that might be out there, but we've only seen glimpses of it, and only have vague codenames for.

Its not exactly plausible.

[AirmanR]

Well since the antarctic research station is actually hiding a major UFO landing site or Atlantis, we're not sure which, I don't think it is implausible at all! Why be a negative nancy? :)

[Moonsword]

Poor writing on the part of the authors really. Niops was interesting and plausible when they were hand building replacement parts for things they already had. Need a new hand actuator? Pull one off another design, and hand build one. No problem. Giving Niops the schematics for the Nighthawk changed that to "Oh, for some odd reason this research station has schematics on the most cutting edge tech that the Star League had to offer. So cutting edge and secretive that its existence was merely rumors, and was only deployed with its special forces."

It doesn't require anything quite that sinister.  They may have had the schematics on hand for maintenance purposes because an SAS team was based there.  Niops is reasonably close to some outlying areas of the League and, as a League research station, there would be Star League vessels moving in or out of that area to begin with.  If someone didn't vacuum the databases properly, the schematics would still be there.

[tekteam26]

No, actually, I'm not.  The Clans don't do megastructures.  The Star League was more advanced than the Clans in that sense as is your colony, which is either on a par with or superior to the Terran Hegemony.  In addition, you still haven't addressed the population issue.  That's your number, not mine.

As far as being a superpower, what else do you call someone with six super-fortresses on a scale no one else ever built?  For the region, that's a superpower, just not one exerting force over its neighbors.

EDIT: To clarify, this probably isn't impossible, and I'm not saying it is.  But it is definitely implausible in terms of what we know from the rest of setting.

You probably should say "In my opinion, it is implausible", rather than asserting that your views are gospel.

These asteroid bases are hardly 'megastructures'. Megastructures implies that someone built from scratch a space station on the scale of the Death Star. That is not remotely close to what these installations are. Heck, the Periphery states have a history of building defense installations among the asteroid belts. Just because the Clans chose not to take asteroids that had been hollowed while being mined for minerals, put the hardware for a shipyard inside of them and then stuck Naval Lasers/PPC's on the outside, doesn't mean that they couldn't do it. For all that we know, they DID do it. We really don't have a lot of material about the Clan homeworlds and the defenses that were built there. It's not all that hard to hollow out chambers from the interior of a Type-M asteroid, then start putting 'stuff' inside of it. Ten kilometers of nickle-iron makes for very good defenses as well.

We haven't even scratched the possibilities of what a technologically advanced human civilization can do with three hundred years on their hands, no wars to disrupt progress and a real serious desire to make darn sure that nothing short of a full blown SLDF task force supported by a squadron of McKennas was going to uproot them.

I understand that a few of you don't like this concept. Just don't be so much of a naysayer to spoil the fun for the others who think that this is awesome and wish that they had thought of it first themselves.

[Hawkeye Jim]

If you want to go the high tech, hidden state route, try this. The RWR starts a colony project ,say a hundred years or so before Stefan Amaris comes to power.

A research center to work on new technology is set up. They have limited manufacturing capacity to build a small number of whatever new they come up with.

Eventually, several other colonies are added to the group, to furnish the raw materials, food and so forth. A small ship repair yard is added so they can keep their starships running without having to wait for resupply from the main sector.

By the time the Amaris coup comes and the RWR is shut down, the colony sector has grown to 8-12 worlds, maybe 3 -4 million people, all interlinked and used to being mostly on their own. Since they were a state secret, the war basically destroys any records of their existance. Once they realize what has happened, they withdraw into themselves.

Eventually, they establish contact with a trading partner, perhaps the Hanseatic League. They trade some of their older technology for resources, but keep the new stuff for themselves. By the time of the Clan Invasion, their population is over 40 million, and their tech level equal to or greater than the Clans.

[tekteam26]

If you want to go the high tech, hidden state route, try this. The RWR starts a colony project ,say a hundred years or so before Stefan Amaris comes to power.

A research center to work on new technology is set up. They have limited manufacturing capacity to build a small number of whatever new they come up with.

Eventually, several other colonies are added to the group, to furnish the raw materials, food and so forth. A small ship repair yard is added so they can keep their starships running without having to wait for resupply from the main sector.

By the time the Amaris coup comes and the RWR is shut down, the colony sector has grown to 8-12 worlds, maybe 3 -4 million people, all interlinked and used to being mostly on their own. Since they were a state secret, the war basically destroys any records of their existance. Once they realize what has happened, they withdraw into themselves.

Eventually, they establish contact with a trading partner, perhaps the Hanseatic League. They trade some of their older technology for resources, but keep the new stuff for themselves. By the time of the Clan Invasion, their population is over 40 million, and their tech level equal to or greater than the Clans.

You are still working on the traditional Periphery model where the various colonies were forced by the Star League to specialize in a particular industry so that they had to be interdependent with other worlds (especially the Terran Hegemony) in order to survive. The Periphery worlds hated being forced into that situation rather than being allowed to develop in a more balanced approach so that a single world could supply all of its citizens' needs without needing to trade with other worlds. I am quite confident that my concept (that I know all of the details of ) is perfectly viable and feasible. In fact, people from the Rim World Republic would particularly desire that degree of independence that a successful, technologically advanced and secure world would provide.

You don't need an existing research center. In fact, these colonists want to make a complete break from both the existing RWR and the Star League, not just be the House Amaris in exile. If they set up shop in some former RWR facility, there is too much of a risk that someone will find the records on this installation and come looking. These colonists REALLY just want to be left alone....no trading partners, no defense pacts, no hint to the rest of humanity that this colony even exists...

Maybe you prefer your campaigns to be structured along the model that you proposed. The scenario that I have developed follows a different model. With the vast amount of area that is encompassed within what is known as the Deep Periphery, there is more than enough room for your idea of an independent set of worlds to exist in one part, while my single colony in its current form exists in another part of the Deep Periphery.

I'm not presenting my concept to please everyone here. There are going to be some people who love it and some who hate it. If you don't like it, don't use it....and don't be so darn eager to criticize it. If you do like it, hey...I am more than happy to explore and discuss it with you.

[durant]

believable ! in the book explorer corp, there is some line about another superpower in the deep periphery...
and they say precisely that is not the clan... (so for me it's amaris's remmant  :D )

If I got my book I could put my finger on that page...  :'(

And about niops nobody think that a scientific SLDF outpost (a good covert) in this place so near marik and canopus could not be used for some special ops before and during the periphery uprising ?  ::)

personnaly I take the two, the lonely colony and the twelve colony ! (you said 12 ? where is the 13th ? And the cylons ? may be on the lonely colony my dear !)  :D

[Jaim Magnus]

I find this argument entertaining... stemming as it does from a plethora of incomplete information.

[durant]

If you know more that about it you can bring to the conversation? please  ;D
Without argument it's pointless I confess, not you ?  8)

[tekteam26]

From what I can tell from the tone of the most vocal critics, they have already decided that they would not be convinced of the feasibility of this concept even if I publically posted every single piece of information that I have developed on this particular world. Kind of like throwing itching powder in someone's underwear to see their reaction.

I want to keep a certain amount of mystery about this concept...the star system is, after all, meant to be a sort of 'black hole' for ships that decided to investigate. Now, if you want to play this system in your own campaign, you can do it your own way, but if you want to use my complete concept, we can discuss this privately where I can reveal the whole package.

There's plenty of room in the Deep Periphery for all flavors of worlds and combinations of worlds....in any event.

[AirmanR]

I just ignore em as best I can and instead focus on the fun! I say if someone wants to come out and say a Deep Periphery power built a full fledged Dyson sphere and has it full of warships and mechs that make the Clans look like they're driving primitives, go for it! Could be a lot of fun to play in a universe with that.

[tekteam26]

  In addition, you still haven't addressed the population issue.  That's your number, not mine.

Have you tried doing the math yet? I certainly have...and the numbers do work. Just so you have the opportunity to figure it out for yourself, take 15,000, double it after 25 years, then take that new number (30,000) and double it for the next 25 years, then continue the process for a total of 300 years. The formula incidentally is 15,000 x 2 (to the 12th power) And yes, living out there far from the rest of civilization, making babies is going to be a pretty popular pastime for colonists and highly encouraged by the leadership of the colony as well. Big families will be the norm, not the exception.

Hint: the answer is 61.44 million

Now, let's say that only five percent are involved in military duty or military related production, that comes out to 3.072 million people.

That is more personnel than the entire US military and very probably all of personnel working as contractors in the military-industrial complex as well. (I have some idea about the latter because of my civilian job)

That's plenty enough people to operate all of the orbital installations, vessels, military units, etc....and I was being pretty conservative with my numbers.

[Jaim Magnus]

But why do they need such a large military?

[AirmanR]

Aliens? those face sitters are disgusting.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Okay, try this on for size.

Genetic scientists decided to try an experiment to tailor make humans to live in certain environments that would normally be considered hostile. A batch of these creations are sent out to colonize a potentially valuable world not "officialy" listed on the Star League's charts.

The preliminary reports look promising, but all contact, and the information it's self is destroyed during the Amaris coup. Eventually, the society reverts to a more primative state in order to survive. Centuries later, an expedition rediscovers the world, but assumes these creatures are aliens.

[SLDF_Spector]

Let's define these structures some.  So, they are not man made and the idea of a hollowed out asteriod being turned into a large facility is a lot easier to swallow.  Even for a low tech colony, this could be achieved pretty easily.  What would the facility be used for?  Defensive?  Mining?  Trade station?

This reminds me of reading Troy Rising by John Ringo.  You should read it if you haven't.  Basic concept is Earth takes an asteroid, hollows it out, and turns it into a semi-mobile space operation capable of holding millions of people.

[Dirk Bastion]

Considering that BT does not have an instant-gravity out of the can, I can't see hollowed out asteroids as trade station. Mining and defense, I'll grant, but it would be pretty bad for long-term inhabitation.

Now, a rotating structure ON the asteroid, that's a whole different issue and imo pretty interesting. (Yes, yes, I know. Camelot, just scale it down.)

[tekteam26]

But why do they need such a large military?

Someone questioned my numbers, so I showed that not only could there be enough of a population after three hundred years, but that it could easily operate half a dozen orbital installations built out of large asteroids. They don't necessarily have to have such a large military. Considering that many of those people would be the workers building military equipment not wearing a uniform and that most of their 'military' would also be in a reserve status not wearing a uniform full time, the number is very realistic.

[Moonsword]

That's plenty enough people to operate all of the orbital installations, vessels, military units, etc....and I was being pretty conservative with my numbers.

I didn't question that or the math.  The population growth doesn't raise a single issue assuming no misfortunes (and there will be with major construction like that going on, but the level of it is difficult to assess, so let's toss it out for simplicity).

It's keeping the economy and all the supporting industries running that was the issue.  Your numbers are out of whack with everything else we've seen out of the setting in terms of economic performance because of the sheer scale and concentration of production.  This is, in fact, where the wheels keep coming off for me.  If this was the Star League, or the RWR's own construction, or from a significantly larger population base, I'd have a lot fewer problems.  But the sheer scale of what's going on against the population size in terms of novel construction is completely out of whack for everywhere else in the game.  If "implausible" isn't an appropriate term, I'm having difficulty finding a better one.

As for the term "megastructures", I wasn't implying nor unaware of the fact that these structures were not bolted together.  Unfortunately, there's not a lot of other convenient terms for construction on that size, whether starting from a hollowed out rock or not.  In addition, the Clans most likely didn't do anything like this for both economic and cultural reasons; they well could have, but without evidence to say they did, I'm inclined to doubt it.  The Star League, as noted, obviously had at least the potential to go there, but in terms of engineering achievement, this does surpass anything I'm aware of for them.

But I'm done with it.  Obviously you think the population base is sufficient to the task.  I very much don't.

[tekteam26]

I didn't question that or the math.  The population growth doesn't raise a single issue assuming no misfortunes (and there will be with major construction like that going on, but the level of it is difficult to assess, so let's toss it out for simplicity).

It's keeping the economy and all the supporting industries running that was the issue.  Your numbers are out of whack with everything else we've seen out of the setting in terms of economic performance because of the sheer scale and concentration of production.  This is, in fact, where the wheels keep coming off for me.  If this was the Star League, or the RWR's own construction, or from a significantly larger population base, I'd have a lot fewer problems.  But the sheer scale of what's going on against the population size in terms of novel construction is completely out of whack for everywhere else in the game.  If "implausible" isn't an appropriate term, I'm having difficulty finding a better one.

As for the term "megastructures", I wasn't implying nor unaware of the fact that these structures were not bolted together.  Unfortunately, there's not a lot of other convenient terms for construction on that size, whether starting from a hollowed out rock or not.  In addition, the Clans most likely didn't do anything like this for both economic and cultural reasons; they well could have, but without evidence to say they did, I'm inclined to doubt it.  The Star League, as noted, obviously had at least the potential to go there, but in terms of engineering achievement, this does surpass anything I'm aware of for them.

But I'm done with it.  Obviously you think the population base is sufficient to the task.  I very much don't.

I always found that the economic model for the Clans to be very more infeasible than the one that I described here....It makes the economics of the Soviet Union seem like the paragon of virture, but hey, there are a lot of players who enjoy playing the Clans. I believe that many people will also enjoy the model for this Deep Periphery colony as well.

In many ways, it is much like the economic model for the defense of Switzerland...they have managed to make themselves very much like a hedgehog for the past two or three hundred years quite well with a limited population.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Switzerland has the advantage of a naturally strong defensive position. Israel would be a better choice. They simply train everyone to fight, since their natural defenses are terrible.

[Moonsword]

Neither has to deal with maintaining their own complete industrial processes from start to finish, either - they're able to import goods, materials, and expertise and both have the relations to do so in most areas.

Materials being there isn't necessarily an issue - we're talking about a star system's natural resources here - but the extraction of everything you need takes a certain chunk of the population that the others don't necessarily have to deal with.

[tekteam26]

Switzerland has the advantage of a naturally strong defensive position. Israel would be a better choice. They simply train everyone to fight, since their natural defenses are terrible.

Once this Deep Periphery has nudged the asteroids into orbit and has made them into the equivalent of the Swiss Alps, they have a pretty strong defensive position. But the fact that so many of the Swiss, like the Israelis, have military training and remain in the reserves for many years, is also an important factor. With this colony's paranoia about the SLDF someday showing to destroy them and show no quarter, both the Swiss and Israeli models actually fit well in a variety of aspects.

The colonists can then work their day jobs like farming, trading (on planet...not interstellar), manufacturing and asteroid mineral extraction. If unwanted 'guests' show up, then the call goes out for the reserves to be mobilized, everyone grabs their weapons and heads to their assembly areas for orders. The small standing military will already be on duty with most of them manning installations within the 'moons', ready to launch ships and fire weapons at a moment's notice.

[Archameades]

It's been a while since I've read it, but didn't the Belters start mining and living on or near asteroids in 2031?  They managed to establish 1G habitats in pretty short order didn't they?  I'm ingrigued by your ideas and feel they are plauasible.  Also, consider, in a group that small, 5% of the population in the military (I'm assuming both genders) could just be a placed job for 5 years after they finish their education.  I'm sure in a high tech environment such as this all military skills would be transferrable to the civilian sector; wouldn't they?

[Moonsword]

The difference is that the Belters weren't completely isolated from all outside contact, doing this with a comparatively tiny supporting population, doing very large scale work with said tiny population base, building their infrastructure from nothing, or turning them into inner system super-fortresses.  While comparable in kind, the scale and starting point is very different.

EDIT: Forget it.  The example's not analogous for the reasons listed above.  That's all I'm talking about at this point.

[tekteam26]

It's been a while since I've read it, but didn't the Belters start mining and living on or near asteroids in 2031?  They managed to establish 1G habitats in pretty short order didn't they?  I'm ingrigued by your ideas and feel they are plauasible.  Also, consider, in a group that small, 5% of the population in the military (I'm assuming both genders) could just be a placed job for 5 years after they finish their education.  I'm sure in a high tech environment such as this all military skills would be transferrable to the civilian sector; wouldn't they?

I would have to agree with that. In the case of this Deep Periphery colony, the people working in the orbiting asteroids being mining out would probably spent relatively brief times working as asteroid miners/factory workers. They would rotate back to planetside and another shift of workers would take their place. Once planetside, they would be taking leave/vacation, going to school/training or working on a family farm, having earned most of the annual wages while in orbit. The primary industrial base would be in orbit, separating the pollution from the planetary environment and making it far easier for the colony to conceal the true nature and degree of its technological capabilities.

There would eventually be rotating grav decks installed within the interior of each 'moon' after a certain amount of the interior had been hollowed out by mining.

"Move along, these aren't the RWR escapees that you are looking for...only a bunch of dirt farmers..."

[truetanker]

I go a step further, if you have that 5% Military Workforce working in space, their cover is astrominers and stuff to throw off the search, then rotate dirtside to " work " on farms and local quarries and such. Idealy creating tunnels and backup caves for the " true " military away from public eyes and such. Then if and when someone comes along, you have near-planetoid defenses, orbital defenses and hidden dirtside defenses to defend with. A 10 year military stint and your in the reserves for life, with option for 5 year reinstatements or a honorary military discharge. Do a crime, back to space for for the rest of the 5 year agreement and another 5 for the crime. May seem harsh, but why waste in lockup good skills?

Another thing, who do you want to trade with outside that wouldn't try to reclaim your patch of dirt for themselves? You keep talking economy:

It's keeping the economy and all the supporting industries running that was the issue.  Your numbers are out of whack with everything else we've seen out of the setting in terms of economic performance because of the sheer scale and concentration of production.  This is, in fact, where the wheels keep coming off for me.  If this was the Star League, or the RWR's own construction, or from a significantly larger population base, I'd have a lot fewer problems.  But the sheer scale of what's going on against the population size in terms of novel construction is completely out of whack for everywhere else in the game.  If "implausible" isn't an appropriate term, I'm having difficulty finding a better one.

What economy? They are Self-sufficent and do not need to rely on others other than themselves for resources. If others are involved, it would most likey be for the benefit of the colony. An example: 2 tons of diamond dust used in construction of armor for 3 tons of imported exotic stuff. Fair trade, the colonists may consider diamond dust to be junk and crap, useless...

TT

[Moonsword]

The economy necessary to start and sustain the construction projects and supporting infrastructure.  A completely isolated society has to provide all means of production, technological development (such as is required), maintenance, and materials processing out of its own internal economy.  Doing anything more complex than making stone tools requires supporting industries.  The more you have, the more steps involved in making the tools (to make the tools) to do it.  In addition, you have to create and sustain a body of technicians able to man these industries.  This also becomes more involved as the level of industrial sophistication increases.