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Author Topic: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II  (Read 23131 times)

Raellus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #120 on: 13 May 2020, 22:54:18 »
Quote from: Caedis Animus
What's screwy to me in terms of HBS Battletech is that apparently, according to the artbook, they were at least designing a custom appearance for the Atlas II model in-game. Of all the things to not get retroactively added, that and the alternative designs for the Shadowhawk (Beyond the Umbra) were most disappointing.

I'd forgotten to check the HBS BT Art Book. I've looked through it a few times and don't recall seeing anything that jumped out at me as an Atlas II, but then again, that's not what I was looking for at the time. I'll take another, more purposeful gander. Thanks.

EDIT: Good call! I found it. I quite like the BHS vision of the Atlas II- distinct, but not overly so.   

Quote from: Caedis Animus
That said, I'm convinced it was a one-off custom. The Griffin 2N in the game, as well as the Highlander, are both modified from stock; The latter doesn't mount Artemis IV and the former doesn't mount a GECM suite. While I'm aware neither were in the game at inception, I'm going to choose to believe the SLDF base was housing battlemechs under refit and repair that got left missing kit in exchange for other things.

I like that idea. It would account for the inconsistencies. Maybe Castle Nautilus housed mechs undergoing in various stages of undergoing the conversion from base models to Royal variants.

« Last Edit: 14 May 2020, 00:28:44 by Raellus »
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smdvogrin

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #121 on: 14 May 2020, 09:47:49 »
I like that idea. It would account for the inconsistencies. Maybe Castle Nautilus housed mechs undergoing in various stages of undergoing the conversion from base models to Royal variants.

Or possibly Royal models under repair after supplies from the Hegemony were cut-off by the coup - they still had stocks of various advanced techs, but were short on electronics, etc.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #122 on: 14 May 2020, 10:19:51 »
I wonder why the Star League didn't just go the usual "Royal" route with the Atlas like they did with the Highlander, Griffin, Black Knight etc. Seems like that would be easier, more cost-effective, and timelier than producing a "new" version (i.e. the Atlas II).
The Rifleman II agains 20 tons, so it’s not like the Atlas II is the most radical departure.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #123 on: 14 May 2020, 11:03:19 »
How the mechs show up in HBS cannot be taken as a indicator . . . the game did not have ECM when it trotted out a Griffin 2N- otherwise it closely matched up with what we get for table top stats.  Same with the Highlander IIRC, Artemis still is not a ingame feature.
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Raellus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #124 on: 14 May 2020, 12:21:55 »
Or possibly Royal models under repair after supplies from the Hegemony were cut-off by the coup - they still had stocks of various advanced techs, but were short on electronics, etc.

That works well too.

Quote from: Colt Ward
How the mechs show up in HBS cannot be taken as a indicator . . . the game did not have ECM when it trotted out a Griffin 2N- otherwise it closely matched up with what we get for table top stats.  Same with the Highlander IIRC, Artemis still is not a ingame feature.

Good point. ECM wasn't introduced in-game until the Flashpoint DLCs. It stands to reason that the dev's weren't ready to make ECM work when they were finishing up the campaign, so they omitted it from the Griffin 2N. To circle back to the star of this thread, the same could be postulated for the Atlas II's LB-X-10.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #125 on: 14 May 2020, 13:49:19 »
The game are never canon to begin with, they often use canon element in the story but it's treated like you tabletop campaign. You save Peter Steiner Davion's life and kill Nondi Steiner in MW4: Mercs, a cool story that will never be reflected in the novels or SBs for obvious reasons.

I'm honestly impressed we got a book regarding the HBS game as all but HBS did think up of allot of original stuff vs shoehorn player characters into existing BTU lore.

Don't think we will see more variants of the Atlas II which I think is a shame, it has as much potential as it's older brother. It's far from a bad mech but it can be overshadowed. Same time, it's a command mech, it's linage is designed to scare the enemy away rather than run head first into the fray like in the fiction... still want to see a zombie version ;D   
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Caedis Animus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #126 on: 14 May 2020, 19:43:14 »
How the mechs show up in HBS cannot be taken as a indicator . . . the game did not have ECM when it trotted out a Griffin 2N- otherwise it closely matched up with what we get for table top stats.  Same with the Highlander IIRC, Artemis still is not a ingame feature.
I guess I forgot to point out that I knew that, it's just my way of rationalizing why they were missing. It's not something I meant to portray as an objective truth, just my headcanon so that it didn't irritate me when i spent several million C-Bills to restore the ECM on my Griffin.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #127 on: 15 May 2020, 14:55:12 »
still want to see a zombie version ;D   

It occurs to me that since the FFA is in theory what made for the different armor molding look of the Atlas-II....Combined with the limits of space using FFA & DHS.
I'm not sure a Zombie version is even possible & still keeping some sort of AtlasII feel anyway.

I mean, no Atlas is 100% beamers AFAIK.
And if it was then the Ferro would have to be replaced to make room for more DHS.

I had a custom Atlas for Solaris that dropped the AC20/SRMs for PPC/ML/HS/JJ but even that still had the LRMs for maps with open range on them.

I think a variant of the H2 that dropped the SRMs for AMS &/or ML might be a slight improvement in Zombie-ness w/ defense & lower total damage from explosions (0-24 v/s 90) might be a slight improvement.  But its hard not to like a Gauss & LRM combo.

Triple PPCs in the Arms & RT while a ML battery in the LT keeps some feel of the Weapon/Range placement but its just really a Super-Awesome at that point.
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Raellus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #128 on: 18 May 2020, 11:34:35 »
Not trying to stir the pot here, - just trying to get to the bottom of how different the Atlas II is from the original production model of the Atlas.

I've asked several times if the TRO: 3075 gives a description the differences between the versions. The only direct  answer to that question came from Arkansas Warrior:

It doesn't so much describe the differences as give you a picture.  The one Weirdo posted above, in fact.  The description focuses on the weapons and whatnot, though there is a passing reference to "the stylistic alterations in the Battlemech's appearance".

That's not very definitive (and here I'm faulting the TRO:3075 fluff, not Arkansas Warrior). Here's a natural follow up question: what does TRO:3075 give for the weapon locations?

The House Arano sourcebook, which, according to Sarna.net, is canon, not apocrypha, includes a mech record sheet for the Atlas II AS7-D-HT. Interestingly, it features the same Atlas II illustration from TRO:3075. The weapon location block, however, looks like this.

Medium pulse lasers (2) CT
AC20 RT
SRM 6 LT
LRM 20 LT
ER LRL RA
ER LRL LA

That's pretty much the same weapon configuration as the standard Atlas. It belies the image on the same page- the one from TRO:3075, suggesting a somewhat inaccurate visual representation (i.e. artist interpretation). Since the Atlas II stat bloc gives the same weapons configuration as the standard Atlas, and the the entry that starts this thread reads, "First produced at the Weapons Division of the Hegemony Research and Development Department on New Earth, the Atlas II uses the same skeleton and 300-rated Vlar engine of its progenitor. " [Emphasis added], it seems perfectly logical to conclude that, aside from a few superficial differences (the skull motif, for example), the Atlas II looks more like the original than not. If the original TRO:3075 contradicts the HASB, though, perhaps not.

So, what weapon placement for the Atlas II is listed in TRO:3075?
« Last Edit: 18 May 2020, 11:36:34 by Raellus »
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #129 on: 18 May 2020, 12:46:34 »
The weapons placement in 3075 matches the artwork.  The reason the D-HT doesn't is because it's a variant and most variants don't carry the same weapons or weapon arrangement as the stock models.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #130 on: 18 May 2020, 15:27:33 »
The original Atlas-II mechs not from the Video Game have much different layouts.

They match the artwork in 3075.

So LB10X is in RA   (For the H2 model its a Gauss)

The LRM20 is in the RT for the Atlas-II
The SRM & MPLs are in the LT for the Atlas-II

The LA of the base Atlas-II has twin ERLL  (The H2 model has a single ERPPC)


The Arano Atlas-II-HT very much seems to have the weapon placement of the original Atlas with Lasers in the CT & each Arm, with the AC in the RT & both missiles in the LT.
But it uses the weapon choices of the Atlas-II, except for the AC20 instead of LB10X.

The Arano mech very much is an odd duck, it mixes weapons/locations of the 7D, 7RS, & 7H all into one mish mash concept.

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Colt Ward

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #131 on: 18 May 2020, 15:33:42 »
 . . . or its a video game conversion, do not think about it too hard.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #132 on: 18 May 2020, 15:36:07 »
Aye, that pretty much explains why its an odd duck.

Its trying to do too much in a system that doesn't support everything from the tabletop.
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Raellus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #133 on: 18 May 2020, 15:57:44 »
Thanks for sharing the base model Atlas II's weapons layout. It does indeed match the image in TRO:3075.

Given the tonnage and all that jazz, I don't see why the AS7-D-HT as stat'ed by the House Arano sourcebook can't work. Then again, maybe it's not really a true Atlas II variant, but rather an AS7-D upgraded with Star League tech to something approaching Atlas II standards, including the Vader-esque mug. This would also explain the oddity of the other Star League era mechs in the cache on Artu.

Yeah, I'm thinking about this too hard but it's a been a fun thought exercise for me. I'm sorry if it annoys you grizzled vets. I'll pipe down now.
   
« Last Edit: 18 May 2020, 16:02:00 by Raellus »
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #134 on: 19 May 2020, 06:45:17 »
I think it's beginning of a drowngrade.  Star League Tech still existed during the era, its possible this model was in process of replacing high tech equipment battle damage with older standard tech.  Then they just forgot about (got killed) about the mech.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #135 on: 19 May 2020, 11:34:09 »
The big complicating factor for the Atlas in general mind you is...

The Atlas was introduced about a decade before the coup. With the Atlas II being a year before the coup...

Honestly, my suggestion for it is actually quite simple: It was the competing prototype/design for the Atlas II.

AKA Porsche Tiger vs Henschel Tiger.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #136 on: 19 May 2020, 12:41:08 »
Very interesting.

I like that thought.

It explains the weapons placement & location/use of the AC20.

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Raellus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #137 on: 19 May 2020, 12:55:07 »
The Atlas was introduced about a decade before the coup. With the Atlas II being a year before the coup...

Honestly, my suggestion for it is actually quite simple: It was the competing prototype/design for the Atlas II.

AKA Porsche Tiger vs Henschel Tiger.

Works for me!

And, like most trial versions, several examples were constructed (there are several Atlases in the interior Nautilus Castle game cut scenes).
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VhenRa

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #138 on: 19 May 2020, 12:56:17 »
Works for me!

And, like most trial versions, several examples were constructed (there are several Atlases in the interior Nautilus Castle game cut scenes).

IIRC there are, yes... but they are to the same visual design as the HBS/MWO standard Atlas.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #139 on: 19 May 2020, 13:26:24 »
Hey, Perhaps we have the single HQ mech that some regimental commander had custom created for him/her-self that eventually lead to the "Atlas-II", much like the Vindicator-SIC was originally a single Warrior's ride that got made into the Nation's standard factory model.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #140 on: 29 May 2020, 10:24:20 »
Hey Question.

Something isn't adding up for me & I don't see where it was mentioned above.

How/Where does the tonnage for the Command Console & AC20 come from?

By my math that is 6 tons to account for & based what I'm reading above nothing was removed.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #141 on: 29 May 2020, 19:58:26 »
Design Quirk: Cardboard Head Construction?
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #142 on: 04 June 2020, 16:35:38 »
Hey Question.

Something isn't adding up for me & I don't see where it was mentioned above.

How/Where does the tonnage for the Command Console & AC20 come from?

By my math that is 6 tons to account for & based what I'm reading above nothing was removed.

BTCG has no mechanic for different armor/structure types at all, it's merely extra free tonnage... probably Endo Steel internals for the "Atlas II". Ferro-Fibrous wouldn't have sufficed and also run facemask first into awkward questions regarding its look, too.  ::)
It is the same for the Black Knight(Endo) and Highlander(Ferro+removed Artemis weight). Just slapped the BTCG Atlas II together in SSW, and it fits perfectly with 2 tons AC, 2 tons LRM and 1 ton SRM ammo and a grand total of 12 DHS. Oh, and no CASE. Could fire all long range weapons at once, and "only" have a +8 heat, so +1 targting modifier. Leave out one of the ER LL the next 2 turns and your heat neutral again. Short range battery doesn't even register on the heat scale... just leave the ER LL out of the firing circuit, or bad things will happen. Instead make bad things happen to the target and slap it silly(meaning squashed like in a cartoon) with your fists.

It has been said before and is probably off topic but... the standard Atlas just projects an aura of terror that none of the others do. Maybe just maybe the "Jason with a Minigun" as described by Kotetsu, the Atlas III.
The old, abortive Mechwarrior 5 trailer also nicely shows the viewer why you really don't want to suddenly find yourself in very short range of an AS-7D.
The Mechwarrior 3 Intro however perfectly demonstrates the same:
Lance Commander, sounding anxious:"Big Al, standby to intercept!"
Timberwolf Prime in full sprint uses ER LL to fire on infantry
Atlas with one arm missing suddenly appears standing in front of it as if the god of Mech-kind wanted to say "NO."
Timberwolf suddenly comes to a complete stop from full run, inertia still pushing it a few metres forward...
...and immediately throws in the reverse while awkwardly firing machineguns and ER Smalls because whoops, smoking kitty just fired his ER Large's
Big Al doesn't even react to the hits
Big Al:
"Interception succesful." in a tone that might as well be a bored Brit, waxing his magnificient mustache.  ;D

On that note, I always wondered how exactly this unique one was frankenstein'd together. Typical AC mount, 2x 10 tube LRM and 3 LL in the torsi, SRM6 on the hip and... 3 more undetermined Laser ports in the torso...  : ???
« Last Edit: 04 June 2020, 22:18:10 by SD501st »

grimlock1

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #143 on: 04 June 2020, 18:19:58 »
t has been said before and is probably off topic but... the standard Atlas just projects an aura of terror that none of the others do. Maybe just maybe the "Jason with a Minigun" as described by Kotetsu, the Atlas III.
The III looks horrifying, but it's only a RAC 2. The D2's HAG is similarly lacking the heavy gun I typically associate with "Atlas."
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #144 on: 04 June 2020, 19:03:47 »
What I noticed is the common theme with all Atlas' is armor rather than a big gun. Why you want it as a command mech; as long as you don't do anything stupid, it takes forever to kill.

While the Atlas II and III doesn't have that one big knock down gun, it has the range lacking on many of the original Atlas variants that helps keep the Atlas alive.     
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #145 on: 04 June 2020, 22:14:03 »
The III looks horrifying, but it's only a RAC 2. The D2's HAG is similarly lacking the heavy gun I typically associate with "Atlas."

True, but the RAC-2 is for the command variant, so the shields could give more protection. Regarding the HAG... I could understand the notion of "lacking a heavy/knockdown gun" if this was a class 20 HAG, but it's a class 30 and linked to a TC to boot!
Compared to a Clan LB 20X AC, you get a massive range advantage, better accuracy across the board except for 1 hex distance, and become the nightmare of anything with tracks, wheels, hover propulsion and especially anything that dares to fly in your presence. Everything that's not a Mech will drop bricks from it's exhaust ports at the sight of that gun. For Mech targets at and under 8 hex distance, it's also a guaranteed knockdown roll just like a class 20 AC slug(and unlike the LB 20X cluster round). The HAG 30 does more damage on average than the class 20 slug, and MUCH more than the cluster round... sure we don't use a class 20 AC cluster round for the damage, but you still get on average 5/4 clusters with the HAG 30 up to 8/24 hexes. As additional bonus, it synergizes with the Streak 20 by virtue of throwing so many 5 pointers out to long range that most Mech's without Ferro-Lamellor armor will have one or multiple open locations before they even have the time to close the range.

Okay sorry, I started rambling a bit there. Point is, there are veeery few people that would complain about a HAG 30 not being a "heavy" enough gun.  :))

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #146 on: 04 June 2020, 22:39:35 »
It’s still a cluster weapon.  An MRM40 doesn’t inspire the fear that a UAC20 does.  A HAG can’t take your head off in one blow.  It’s the same reason people tend to fear a Devastator or Pillager more than a Longbow.  Sure; the Longbow does more damage on the average, but it doesn’t have those two big “I win” buttons that can drop a mech in one shot.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #147 on: 04 June 2020, 23:41:55 »
I like big guns myself but people talk about head capers the same way the AC/2 crowd talks about the Golden BB ::)

I don't think the Atlas II was ever meant to be the ultimate assault mech, just a good command mech as all of the compromises are made to solve the two biggest complaints you would have about the vanilla Atlas: it's short range and limited ammo.

If your looking for a brawler, the original is defiantly the better option.     
« Last Edit: 05 June 2020, 07:59:17 by SteelRaven »
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #148 on: 05 June 2020, 02:03:24 »
If your looking for a brawler, the original is defiantly the better option.   
Kind of a shame the Atlas II never really got a 'brawler' configuration aside from the heat pig that is the HT. But when you can roll in with an Elite Lance of the things, I guess you don't need silly things like 'specialization'.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II
« Reply #149 on: 05 June 2020, 10:48:31 »
I don't know.

Anything that can spit out 2-MPL & SRM6 in addition to LB10X/ERLL or Gauss/ERPPC while delivering a 20 point kick is still pretty brawler-ish

Just because it lacks the AC20 doesn't mean its not still nasty as hell in a close range fight.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo