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Author Topic: Was Ulric a traitor?  (Read 20316 times)

Warpimp

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Was Ulric a traitor?
« on: 23 May 2014, 22:25:01 »
I've been re-reading a lot of early clan invasion stuff and as far as I understand the things Ulric did seem so obviously traitorous, I don't know how he got away with it for so long.
« Last Edit: 07 June 2014, 08:34:46 by Warpimp »
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Foxx Ital

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2014, 23:19:08 »
he could back it up with his skills in a battlemech?
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Terrace

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2014, 23:42:49 »
The charges of genocide that were leveled at him just before the Refusal War were entirely baseless, and were brought up purely because of jealous butthurt on the part of the Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars for doing so much better than them during Operation Revival. His success in the early Invasion was due to a few factors.

1. His Clan fought their way through the FRR, which put up less resistance to the Invading Clans than the FedCom and Dracs did. The Green Turkeys and Smoked Kitties practically reveled in the tougher opposition they got, even with the drastically increased casualties they took, which required replacement Warriors to be shipped in from the Homeworlds.

2. The Wolves shamelessly used Inner Sphere-built war material to supplement their supplies. The Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars stubbornly insisted on shipping their supplies in from the Homeworlds. Only stubborn pride will make a MechWarrior wait for months for the right widget needed to fix up their 'Mech when there's another perfectly serviceable 'Mech available. This means the Wolves often leapt ahead to take their objectives, which made the Falcons and Jaguars look overly cautious.

3. The Wolves were more willing to accept IS-born MechWarriors into their ranks and make use of their experience with Inner Sphere culture, which meant that cultural friction was significantly lessened. Plus, that's another Warrior you don't need to ship in from the Homeworlds.

Panthros

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #3 on: 24 May 2014, 00:21:35 »
I've been re-reading ablotbof early clan invasion stuff and as far as I understand the things Ulric did seem so obviously traitorous, I don't know how he got away with it for so long.

As a Warden of Clan Wolf, he was a hero, my hero ;)  As a Crusader outside of Clan Wolf, the jealous success of Clan Wolf could build a traitorous point of view.  It is all in your outlook.  The thing I remind everyone was the Clan Council would vote on many things so you cannot blame Ulric for everything.  The arrogance and short shortsightedness of the other clans caused them to lose Tukayyid.  I love the gamble.  The clans were all about using the least equipment and warriors to win a battle and that proxy, if won, would have saved countless warriors and equipment.  I doubt Comstar would have given up Terra if they lost but that is another topic for another day lol.

rebs

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #4 on: 24 May 2014, 01:08:28 »
Indeed, Ulric Kerensky saved the Clans.  He said so himself ;)


A. Lurker

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2014, 02:03:44 »
I'd say that by and large, no, Ulric wasn't a traitor for one simple reason: you can only betray people who actually trust you in the first place. ;)

(If anything, he comes across as shadier later during the Refusal War, when he's basically willing to wipe out part of his own Clan to maintain the truce. But in the early invasion? Nah.)

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2014, 02:08:06 »
 The other Clans failed and somebody had to be blamed. Ulric was the first choice.

  The excuse used for failure was that Ulric left the other Clans to make their own choices instead of ordering them not to be stupid.

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David CGB

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2014, 02:32:08 »
The charges of genocide that were leveled at him just before the Refusal War were entirely baseless, and were brought up purely because of jealous butthurt on the part of the Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars for doing so much better than them during Operation Revival.
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cold1

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2014, 13:13:41 »
Let me start with this.  I don't like Ulric, at all.  His only redeeming quality is he drove Gargoyles a whole lot.  I don't like what the did to the clans or his clan.

That said, he's not a traitor at all.  The crusaders were not smart in their play to let him lead.  They put him in charge then tried to blame him for their failures.  That's not how the clans work.

I was a big Jaguar fan.  Fun to play on the table top but painful to follow in the fiction.  " He said what now??   You're gonna do what???"  It was maddening. 

Ulric was a good character too.  Very polarizing.


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Alan Grant

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2014, 14:38:31 »
Yeah the Crusaders force the Wolves to participate in the invasion. Then the Wolves beat them at that. Then they force Ulric to become ilKhan (because they thought his Khan spot would be filled by a Crusader Wolf and that making him IlKhan would kinda sideline him, forcing him to be bound by the Grand Council's decision-making and voting) and he outsmarted them on that. Then he proceeds to put plans in place to support his Warden agenda, such as turning the Refusal War into an all-out conflict....and he largely succeeded. He ordered Wolf Crusaders/supremacists to their deaths in the Refusal War, because they were warriors and they followed their Khan, even then, under those circumstances. You follow your commanding officer, you obey those orders, even if those orders put you at grave risk.

Ulric had an agenda, but he played within the letter of the law. He took every hand he was dealt and turned it into an advantage.

I'm sure there are individuals within the Clans who label Ulric a traitor. But that's not a formal status, that's a "I don't like what he did" reputation thing. Among some fanatical Wardens throughout the Clans he is probably revered.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2014, 09:22:29 »
Going by the Warden philosophy he wasn't a trader but the prevailing opinion of the Crusader Philosophy put them into a Fifteen year wait until they could invade again. Three generations of warriors would come and go during that time. So this made him a traitor to them, if not the Clans as a whole. Ulric wasn't a traitor to the Clans themselves, just to three generations of warriors who wouldn't get the right to continue the invasion.
Now breaking up his Clan in two rather than fighting the Jade Falcons into the ground was pretty despicable. He could have beaten the Falcons in the Refusal War.
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solmanian

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2014, 10:50:38 »
Going by the Warden philosophy he wasn't a trader but the prevailing opinion of the Crusader Philosophy put them into a Fifteen year wait until they could invade again. Three generations of warriors would come and go during that time. So this made him a traitor to them, if not the Clans as a whole. Ulric wasn't a traitor to the Clans themselves, just to three generations of warriors who wouldn't get the right to continue the invasion.
Now breaking up his Clan in two rather than fighting the Jade Falcons into the ground was pretty despicable. He could have beaten the Falcons in the Refusal War.

He was putting his clan through the crucible, trying to cleanse it. It should be noted that he didn't send the crusaders simply to die; he had the balls to lead them from the front; I'm sure he was an elite grade MechWarrior if he became Khan, but putting a master strategist like him in a cockpit seems like a waste in most cases. And thanks to his command abilities the Wolves almost won, thus removing the centuries old falcon thorn from their side. Seriously, the Wolves are the descendants of Kerensky, and the Falcons were the descendants of Kerensky's crazy stalker; I wouldn't be surprised if the first falcon khans had a wall covered with pictures of  Kerensky with his eyes burned out. The only reason the Wolves didn't won was because the Falcon khan chickened out of a one-on-one duel and brought a crapload of LRM carriers to assassinate Ulric. The fact that falcons had to resort to cheating to kill him, is a victory in itself; it cemented his moral superiority, and put the falcons on the path that ends with Malvina.

Some blame him for being an OP Marty Sue; but average Joe Six-pack don't become ilKhans...
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rebs

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2014, 11:13:16 »
He was putting his clan through the crucible, trying to cleanse it. It should be noted that he didn't send the crusaders simply to die; he had the balls to lead them from the front; I'm sure he was an elite grade MechWarrior if he became Khan, but putting a master strategist like him in a cockpit seems like a waste in most cases. And thanks to his command abilities the Wolves almost won, thus removing the centuries old falcon thorn from their side. Seriously, the Wolves are the descendants of Kerensky, and the Falcons were the descendants of Kerensky's crazy stalker; I wouldn't be surprised if the first falcon khans had a wall covered with pictures of  Kerensky with his eyes burned out. The only reason the Wolves didn't won was because the Falcon khan chickened out of a one-on-one duel and brought a crapload of LRM carriers to assassinate Ulric. The fact that falcons had to resort to cheating to kill him, is a victory in itself; it cemented his moral superiority, and put the falcons on the path that ends with Malvina.

Some blame him for being an OP Marty Sue; but average Joe Six-pack don't become ilKhans...

Ulric Kerensky wasn't simply an elite MechWarrior, he piloted a Gargoyle Prime.  That would make him an epic-level bravo and total show-off.  Marty Stu accusations are probably warranted.   ;D

But in spite of my own rhetoric, he was one of my favorite Clan characters because of his "just as planned" factor.  A warrior and a trickster all wrapped into one being named Kerensky.  His skill at Clan politics and ability to walk through the fire unscathed, whether in a mech or in the grand council, made him a hero even before his self-sacrifice (and near triumph) against the Jade Falcons.

He was no more a traitor than any of the Crusaders were.  I think that was the point of the text, actually.   

Archangel

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2014, 18:43:53 »
Seriously, the Wolves are the descendants of Kerensky, and the Falcons were the descendants of Kerensky's crazy stalker; I wouldn't be surprised if the first falcon khans had a wall covered with pictures of  Kerensky with his eyes burned out.

That would be the Vipers not the Falcons.
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SteveRestless

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2014, 18:54:02 »
Ulric Kerensky wasn't simply an elite MechWarrior, he piloted a Gargoyle Prime.  That would make him an epic-level bravo and total show-off.  Marty Stu accusations are probably warranted.   ;D

Hop on irc/megamek sometime and ask me to show you the evil that can be perpetrated with a Gargoyle Prime  >:D
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Vlads Fangs

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #15 on: 25 May 2014, 19:08:35 »
Yes he is, he was our Malvina Hazen,a true self hating psychopath!I am so gratified he totally failed at what he attempted, our New Empire is built over his grave (not literally) I just hope whatever purgatory he toils in he can see what our new Empire is doing.Alaric can join him once we get Terra.LOL

Panthros

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #16 on: 25 May 2014, 23:31:00 »
I love reading people's responses.  You can see their warden or crusader side come out.

Warpimp

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #17 on: 26 May 2014, 13:22:31 »
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder. In addition, essentially destroying your Clan as an actual Clan and turning them into a pet state of a faction that is your enemy also seems traitorous.

Take Tukayyid as an example. The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better. For what? The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #18 on: 26 May 2014, 13:32:37 »
Who did he betray?  He led the Wolves to the greatest conquest they'd ever known, and did his best to advise the other clans on how to do like the Wolves had done.  If they'd followed his advice, the other clans would have won on Tukayyid just as the Wolves did, and the Clans would have claimed Terra.  You can't betray people by giving them good advice.  If anything, Ulric's enemies betrayed themselves by not taking his advice.
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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #19 on: 26 May 2014, 16:10:33 »
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder. In addition, essentially destroying your Clan as an actual Clan and turning them into a pet state of a faction that is your enemy also seems traitorous.

Pretty much.  The actual charges themselves were baseless and just served as an excuse to remove him from power.  Had the charges had real merit, the Clans as a whole would have gone a lot further than simply stripping him of office.  Once he was busted back to Star Colonel, however, the Jade Falcons and the Grand Council were more than happy to resume the invasion and leave Ulric alone.

That being said, the man did play puppet master and manipulate everything he could up to, and including, Turkayyid to ensure that the Clan invasion failed.  From a Warden perspective, he was doing what was right to stop the invasion.  From a Crusader, it was traitorous.  I tend to fall more on the 'traitor' side personally, and while I do prefer the 'Crusader' philosophy, it's not bias (at least I don't think so.  Ulric is probably one of my favorite characters as an aside).

Two of the reasons I consider his acts traitorous are:

1)  The man had been elected to the post of ilKhan and his role was to lead the invasion and not do his best to undermine it at every opportunity as he did.  His position was supposed to be one of impartiality and he was to act as the Khan of Khans.  Instead, he intentionally and knowingly harmed the other Clans either by (for example) putting enemies together in the same corridors, or manipulating them into making mistakes to suffer losses. 

2)  While it can be argued that he was forced into the ilKhan position (and didn't manipulate his way into it) and was thus not obligated to help the invasion succeed, Ulric and Clan Wolf had already attempted to prevent the invasion with a Trial of Refusal.  This is why Clan Wolf was given the FRR and was to 'spearhead' the invasion through the weakest corridor- as punishment for going against the Grand Council's decision and losing.  Under Clan law, the Invasion was 'proven' correct and morally just with Clan Wolf's loss in its Refusal.  Ulric and his Clan disagreed with the Invasion- they lawfully attempted to prove it was wrong, and failed to do so.  A Trial of Refusal is supposed to be the final say in the matter- and Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.

 
Take Tukayyid as an example. The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better. For what? The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.

Ulric undermined Turkayyid to buy him time to further shut the Crusaders down.  The entire Refusal War was Ulric's doing- from manipulating Vlad into coming up with the charges with Marialle Radick (Ulric locked down Conal's Bloodname, taunted Vlad over being unable to attain it, and ensured Vlad would have to remove Ulric to obtain a Bloodname), to moving the charges from the Clan Wolf council to the Grand Council (as he knew the Jade Falcons would volunteer to prosecute) to having Natasha join Clan Wolf in as defenders on Ulric's behalf, to finally bidding the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons to ensure that the Trial would result in Clan Wolf's death.

Ulric's endgame was a crippled Jade Falcon that would be too busy fighting off trials of Absorption to ever be in shape to renew the invasion, with a united, purified (of Crusaders), and exiled Clan Wolf under Phelan and Vlad on Arc Royal to defend the Inner Sphere when 3067 came around.

I'm not sure if Ulric knew how badly the Jaguars were hurting, or if the Bears were going Warden.  It wouldn't surprise me if he did, as he was alive while the Bears were starting their move to the Inner Sphere.

In either case, without a strong Jade Falcon to lead a new invasion and the Clan of Kerensky exiled, the Clans would be in no shape to invade in '67.

It almost worked too... until Vlad found a way out of the genocide charges laid against Clan Wolf anyway.

EDIT:  The main reason I think he's a traitor though is the Refusal War:  His attempt to murder most of his Clan to cripple the Jade Falcons, and then have the rest exiled to the Inner Sphere with no path back to the Home Worlds is pretty traitorous.  All those Crusader Wolves died trying to defend the man who sent them to their deaths.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2014, 16:12:51 by Sid »
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solmanian

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #20 on: 26 May 2014, 16:24:16 »
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder.
He didn't want to participate in the invasion, and everyone among the clans knew that from they one. They expected the wolves throw the trial for participating in the invasion, and would be dishonored; they were wrong. They expected the warden wolves to loiter in their cramped invasion corridor, doing the bare minimum; the Wolves outdid them all. They made Ulric ilkhan, in the hopes of marginalizing him and paving the way for a crusader wolf khan; they couldn't have been more wrong.

The interactions between Leo Showers and the council vs. UK always reminded of this

In addition, essentially destroying your Clan as an actual Clan and turning them into a pet state of a faction that is your enemy also seems traitorous.
Take it up with Phelan. Personally, I'd have led my soon to be "Abjured" clan as far away from the invasion corridor, and go dominate some periphery nation like the marians, and build a power base, maybe even go the route of the foxes and start trading with clantech; being limited to half a planet (and taking responsibility for several systems) really hamstrung the exiles.

Take Tukayyid as an example.
Why? Tukayyid was a single unique event the likes of which would never repeat with the exception of the great refusal maybe. It's like saying the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a reasonable example of American foreign policy...

The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better.
That really misunderstanding UK standard operating procedure. Ulric was always about crafting "win/win" scenarios, in which whatever outcome benefits his cause.
Losing Tukayyid stopped the invasion. Okay, warden cause as guardian of the IS is served. But what if the clans pulled their acts together and actually listened to him, and won? Would his plans simply evaporated? Would all his effort be undone? Nope.
Clans win the trial? Ulric is the ilkhan that brought this victory, and the wolves become the ilclan; Ulric is unshackled by the council and is free to lead the clans down the warden path unopposed.
So Ulric made sure the wolves did the best; Excuses along the like of "it was your responsibility to stop us from being idiots" is unworthy of a clanner, let alone a clan khan complaining a khan from a rival clan didn't tell him how to lead his touman...

The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a utopian pacifistic society, where war is a thing of the past.
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solmanian

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #21 on: 26 May 2014, 17:11:06 »
That being said, the man did play puppet master and manipulate everything he could up to, and including, Turkayyid to ensure that the Clan invasion failed.  From a Warden perspective, he was doing what was right to stop the invasion.  From a Crusader, it was traitorous.  I tend to fall more on the 'traitor' side personally, and while I do prefer the 'Crusader' philosophy, it's not bias (at least I don't think so.  Ulric is probably one of my favorite characters as an aside).

He was a clan khan and practiced politics. So?
From a crusader view he's a traitor? Too bad UK was a warden then, and never pretended otherwise.
I'm sure Ulric would be glad the invasion failed, but he also tried to make sure that if the invasion succeeded the Wolves would "win" it.

Pretty much.  The actual charges themselves were baseless and just served as an excuse to remove him from power.  Had the charges had real merit, the Clans as a whole would have gone a lot further than simply stripping him of office.  Once he was busted back to Star Colonel, however, the Jade Falcons and the Grand Council were more than happy to resume the invasion and leave Ulric alone.

That being said, the man did play puppet master and manipulate everything he could up to, and including, Turkayyid to ensure that the Clan invasion failed.  From a Warden perspective, he was doing what was right to stop the invasion.  From a Crusader, it was traitorous.  I tend to fall more on the 'traitor' side personally, and while I do prefer the 'Crusader' philosophy, it's not bias (at least I don't think so.  Ulric is probably one of my favorite characters as an aside).

Two of the reasons I consider his acts traitorous are:

1)  The man had been elected to the post of ilKhan and his role was to lead the invasion and not do his best to undermine it at every opportunity as he did.  His position was supposed to be one of impartiality and he was to act as the Khan of Khans.  Instead, he intentionally and knowingly harmed the other Clans either by (for example) putting enemies together in the same corridors, or manipulating them into making mistakes to suffer losses. 
Impartial? :o ??? No ilkhan in the history of the clans, could ever be accused of being impartial, not even St.Nick.
2)  While it can be argued that he was forced into the ilKhan position (and didn't manipulate his way into it) and was thus not obligated to help the invasion succeed, Ulric and Clan Wolf had already attempted to prevent the invasion with a Trial of Refusal.  This is why Clan Wolf was given the FRR and was to 'spearhead' the invasion through the weakest corridor- as punishment for going against the Grand Council's decision and losing.  Under Clan law, the Invasion was 'proven' correct and morally just with Clan Wolf's loss in its Refusal.  Ulric and his Clan disagreed with the Invasion- they lawfully attempted to prove it was wrong, and failed to do so.  A Trial of Refusal is supposed to be the final say in the matter- and Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.
A. "Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.". Nope, not really. Under Ulric leadership the wolves were the most successful of the invading clans, which troubled the crusaders to no end, since the wolves were mere weeks from Terra; which is why ilkhan Showers shadowed Ulric and tried his best to slow the wolves with gratuitous "impartiality".

B. So it's OK for the crusader council and ilkhan to set the wolves up to fail, but when Ulric returns the favor it's suddenly "treason". Are you still claiming the crusaders weren't bias?

Ulric undermined Turkayyid to buy him time to further shut the Crusaders down.
Objection! Baseless conjecture. Especially since victory at Tukayyid would've echieved warden supremacy with the Wolves as ilclan and Ulric as the supreme leader of the clans, with the crusaders unable to oppose him.

The entire Refusal War was Ulric's doing- from manipulating Vlad into coming up with the charges with Marialle Radick (Ulric locked down Conal's Bloodname, taunted Vlad over being unable to attain it, and ensured Vlad would have to remove Ulric to obtain a Bloodname), to moving the charges from the Clan Wolf council to the Grand Council (as he knew the Jade Falcons would volunteer to prosecute) to having Natasha join Clan Wolf in as defenders on Ulric's behalf
Again, politics is not a crime.

to finally bidding the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons to ensure that the Trial would result in Clan Wolf's death.
Again, baseless conjecture... There's nothing, absolutely nothing to imply the destruction of clan wolf was at any point Ulric's goal; saying so is ridiculous as the charges of genocide. The one thread between Ulric actions is the goal of wolf supremacy.


Ulric's endgame was a crippled Jade Falcon that would be too busy fighting off trials of Absorption to ever be in shape to renew the invasion, with a united, purified (of Crusaders), and exiled Clan Wolf under Phelan and Vlad on Arc Royal to defend the Inner Sphere when 3067 came around.

-snip-

EDIT:  The main reason I think he's a traitor though is the Refusal War:  His attempt to murder most of his Clan to cripple the Jade Falcons, and then have the rest exiled to the Inner Sphere with no path back to the Home Worlds is pretty traitorous.

This argument falls short.
I. The exiles were a contingency, to make sure that what ever happen in the refusal war, the wolf clan would live on.
II. It's hard to claim that Ulric set the wolves up to die and be annihilated, when the wolves almost won... Ulric didn't "send them to their death" like some back room general; he led them from the front all the way to the falcon capital where he challenged the falcon khan to single combat (which the flacon agreed but instead brought a ton LRM boats to what can only be described as an "assassination"). Even in death, Ulric score a huge victory; while the falcons were the "technical" winners, victory only came by their khan essentially admitting by his actions the falcons can't beat the wolves in a straight fight. Even the falcons were disgusted by themselves by the end of it, and it's why none of the clans made a fuss about the "jade wolves" going back to original flavor...

All those Crusader Wolves died trying to defend the man who sent them to their deaths.
They died defending the honor of their clan and their khan, while killing falcon scums and proving Wolf superiority over CJF. For a clanner, it doesn't get any better than this.
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Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #22 on: 26 May 2014, 18:43:21 »
I'm sure Ulric would be glad the invasion failed, but he also tried to make sure that if the invasion succeeded the Wolves would "win" it.

Yes, that was his "Plan B" in case he failed in halting the invasion.  It's stated outright in the BoK trilogy from what I remember- Phelan questions why Natasha and Ulric are participating.  The answer is "IF the Clans win, it should be us".

I.e, Plan A - Stop the Invasion.  Plan B - If Terra falls, it's to Clan Wolf instead of, say, Clan Jade Falcon.

Impartial? :o ??? No ilkhan in the history of the clans, could ever be accused of being impartial, not even St.Nick.

Ulric acted as a Khan of Clan Wolf on Turkayyid, assuming direct control.  There's favoritism, there's bias...and then there's what Ulric pulled.

The only other Clan he assumed direct control of on Turkayyid was some Jaguar forces, and that was under the pretense of 'saving them' from killing more ComGuards.

A. "Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.". Nope, not really. Under Ulric leadership the wolves were the most successful of the invading clans, which troubled the crusaders to no end, since the wolves were mere weeks from Terra; which is why ilkhan Showers shadowed Ulric and tried his best to slow the wolves with gratuitous "impartiality".

Ulric put the Vipers in the Falcon corridor and the Nova Cats in the Jaguar's corridor.  He 'groomed' Phelan, who remarks on this fact several points throughout the trilogy- that Ulric is preparing and testing him for something.  This continues long after Ulric was promoted to ilKhan- then there's the actual defeat of the Clans by Focht on Turkayyid of course.

In addition, he manipulated the other Clans into bidding low on Turkayyid, and essentially ensured Focht would win.

B. So it's OK for the crusader council and ilkhan to set the wolves up to fail, but when Ulric returns the favor it's suddenly "treason". Are you still claiming the crusaders weren't bias?

My point exactly.  The other Clans' Khans made him ilKhan so he would not be directly leading Clan Wolf anymore, and instead would be busy leading all the Clans.  The net result?  At worst, Clan Wolf slows down without Ulric's attention and at best the other Clans' progress speeds up.

I.e, They gave him a job to keep him from leading Clan Wolf- and he led Clan Wolf anyway.  To add insult to injury, he then abused the job to cripple the other Clans.

Yeah, he was a great ilKhan!

Objection! Baseless conjecture. Especially since victory at Tukayyid would've echieved warden supremacy with the Wolves as ilclan and Ulric as the supreme leader of the clans, with the crusaders unable to oppose him.

 ???  Ulric did not want Clan Wolf to have Terra because that conflicts with his ideology.  Clan Wolf is supposed to protect Terra from the other Clans, not invade it.

Reread the end of the third Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  Focht calls him on it.  From memory, it was something to the effect of "If you had wanted the Clans to win here today Ulric, they would have"

You know, where Focht basically thanks Ulric from halting the invasion?

Again, politics is not a crime.
Again, baseless conjecture... There's nothing, absolutely nothing to imply the destruction of clan wolf was at any point Ulric's goal; saying so is ridiculous as the charges of genocide. The one thread between Ulric actions is the goal of wolf supremacy.

Again, read the novels.  The "Falcon and the Wolf" and other sourcebooks also have a good summary.

Basically:
1)  Ulric intentionally setups a de facto Trial of Absorption between the Jade Falcons and Clan Wolf.  This is in the novels- Natural Selection IIRC.  In any case, when Chistu (may have been Crichell) calls Natasha to hear Clan Wolf's bid for the Trial of Refusal, Ulric is present.  Natasha says Ulric will make the bid-  he bids the entire Clan which horrifies the Falcon Khan.  He outright says that bid would turn the Trial into one of Absorption.  Ulric smiles that 'magnificent bastard' smile of his he mocks the Falcon with a 'No, no!  It's a Trial of Refusal...'

That's Ulric springing the trap on the Falcons, locking both Clans into a battle to the death.

2)  Ulric then sends Clan Wolf best and most Warden forces (with Phelan) to the Inner Sphere on Arc Royal to keep them safe.  While in transit, Phelan plays a recording left by Ulric where he reveals that a) Phelan and his wolves are to remain permanently  in the Inner Sphere and Ulric had the path home erased from the computers to prevent them from *ever* returning.  In addition, because Ulric knew moving the charges to the Grand Council would mean losing his ilKhanship, he's using the recording to create a new Bloodname for Phelan in advance as his last act as ilKhan.

Now consider that.  Ulric created the Kell Bloodname while he was *still* ilKhan, which means it was before the Grand Council found him guilty.  It's also before he bid the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons... and it's also before he sent Phelan and the Warden wolves on a one way trip to never return to the Clan Homeworlds.

That means Ulric knew that while he was still ilKhan that he was going to be sending Phelan to the Inner Sphere, and that he was going to bid the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons.  This was all planned out.  All of it.

3)  The sourcebooks especially make it clear that Ulric's intention was to cripple the Falcons as best he could.  Again, check out Falcon and the Wolf  for an example.  While the Falcons expected him to draw the Refusal War out as long as he could in the Wolf occupation zone, to delay a resumed invasion, he instead declared the Falcon invasion corridor as the place for the Trial and threw Wolf forces into the corridor.  There's notes of the extreme speed and casualties, as well as the bidding away of Aerospace forces.  The man racked up as many dead Mechwarriors as he could-  recall that Natasha was in a Direwolf B when she fought Joanna?  That was because Widowmaker was out of service from damage.

It's noted that Wolf Crusader forces took the brunt of the action throughout the war.  I'm at work, and busy tonight, so it'll take me a couple days to check books... but again, if you look yourself you'll see that Ulric intentionally took the bright eyed, busy tailed, young Crusader Wolves and shoved them into a meat grinder to kill off as many Falcons and Wolves as he could.

A quick Google search turns up the following on a fansite.  I'm almost positive it's a copy and paste from the Falcon and Wolf scenario book:
"By virtually destroying the Jade Falcons and the Wolf Clan Crusaders, Ulric hoped to tear out the heart of the Crusader faction and protect the Inner Sphere, as he believed the Clans had been created to do."

4)  In Malicious Intent, Vlad is with Ulric on Wotan (which is how Vlad was able to acquire footage of Chistu's murder of Ulric).  Ulric reveals to Vlad that he's engineered the whole thing:  He points out that he (Ulric) is going to die on Wotan that day.  With that, Clan Wolf will be found guilty of Genocide and be killed by the rest of the Clans.  He gives Vlad a choice, either let Clan Wolf die as a traitor, guilty of genocide...or rally as many of the surviving Wolf Crusaders and lead them to Arc Royal to serve under Phelan, in exile.

  Ulric had thought he gave Vlad no way out- that faced with certain death, Vlad would lead the survivors to Arc Royal and help them defend the Inner Sphere against the Clans (as Vlad and the others are now marked for death).  Vlad says he'll find another way... which disappoints Ulric.

  Vlad did, eventually, find a way out by Refuting the Absorption.  It's the only part of Ulric's plan that didn't work out... seems Ulric groomed Vlad a little too well

This argument falls short.
I. The exiles were a contingency, to make sure that what ever happen in the refusal war, the wolf clan would live on.
II. It's hard to claim that Ulric set the wolves up to die and be annihilated, when the wolves almost won... Ulric didn't "send them to their death" like some back room general; he led them from the front all the way to the falcon capital where he challenged the falcon khan to single combat (which the flacon agreed but instead brought a ton LRM boats to what can only be described as an "assassination"). Even in death, Ulric score a huge victory; while the falcons were the "technical" winners, victory only came by their khan essentially admitting by his actions the falcons can't beat the wolves in a straight fight. Even the falcons were disgusted by themselves by the end of it, and it's why none of the clans made a fuss about the "jade wolves" going back to original flavor...
They died defending the honor of their clan and their khan, while killing falcon scums and proving Wolf superiority over CJF. For a clanner, it doesn't get any better than this.

I.  No, they were the endgame- as evidenced by Ulric's recording to Phelan and his ensuring that Phelan and the others would never be able to return, as well as Ulric's conversation with Vlad on Wotan.
II.  Ulric intended to die on Wotan.  His death is what would ensure that Vlad could not rally the survivors and remain in the Clan Homeworlds- their only chance was to join Phelan as Exiles.  Ulric's 'victory' was not showing that the Falcons are unable to defeat the Wolves.  His victory was destroying both the Wolf Crusaders and crippling the Falcons to ensure that the Clans would not be able to invade the Inner Sphere.

Recall that Clan Wolf was mostly Crusader by '57.  Vlad was leading the 'Wolf Supremacists' who were young, extremely loyal to Clan Wolf, and Crusaders.  They were building up pressure and aggression against Natasha and Phelan due to various reasons:

-  The main reason was Clan Wolf's success on Turkayyid meant very few positions were open for advancement within the Clan (due to low casualties). 
-  No chance at glory without being able to either climb the ladder or invade the Inner Sphere, and with Phelan and Natasha against a renewed invasion (being Wardens) they were seen as aiding in preventing the younger Wolves from glory
-  The Inner Sphere tactics and 'mechs that were being introduced into the Clan, such as Natasha's Wolf Spiders.  This has been expanded recently in the TRO Update series- check the Linebacker entry in the new TROU for example.

Ulric's solution was to engineer a war between the Jade Falcons (the largest threat to the Inner Sphere in his eyes) and his own Clan- where a majority of his Clan were joining the Crusader camp...and likely to overthrow Phelan and Natasha.

He sent Phelan and the Wardens to the Inner Sphere to ensure their safety, then he and Natasha led the Crusader Wolves into meat grinder after meat grinder, destroying the Falcons and Crusader Wolves as best they could.

The endgame was a crippled Jade Falcon Clan, and the ratio of Warden:Crusader greatly reduced in the Warden's favor.  In addition, his death would ensure that the Crusader Wolves had no choice but to flee to the Inner Sphere and join up with Phelan, as they were branded traitors within Clan space.

If Ulric couldn't convince the young Wolves to be Wardens... he'd force them by branding them as traitors in the eyes of their Clan brethren.
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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #23 on: 26 May 2014, 22:52:20 »
Ulric acted as a Khan of Clan Wolf on Turkayyid, assuming direct control.  There's favoritism, there's bias...and then there's what Ulric pulled.

Clan Wolf dropped after all the other Clans did.  None of the other Clans solicited any advice from him so he was free to do what he wanted.

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The only other Clan he assumed direct control of on Turkayyid was some Jaguar forces, and that was under the pretense of 'saving them' from killing more ComGuards.

All their senior leaders were dead or MIA.  Had they remained, the Jaguars likely would have been annihilated especially after Focht started shifting forces away from other.  Yes they might have taken more ComGuards before they were annihilated but the end result would likely have been the Jaguars being forced from the Invasion due to a lack of front-line forces and Ulric could have replaced them with another Clan.  So, technically, it would have been in the Warden's best interests had he not intervened.

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Ulric put the Vipers in the Falcon corridor and the Nova Cats in the Jaguar's corridor.

And?  Had he been a Crusader, he would probably have done the same thing.

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then there's the actual defeat of the Clans by Focht on Turkayyid of course.

Who was it that invited ComStar into the midst of the Clans?  Hint:  It wasn't Ulric.

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In addition, he manipulated the other Clans into bidding low on Turkayyid, and essentially ensured Focht would win.

No manipulation was necessary, they would have done that regardless of who was Khan, especially the Smoke Jaguars who had a lot to prove after Wolcott and Luthien.  Their own competitiveness drove them to it.

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My point exactly.  The other Clans' Khans made him ilKhan so he would not be directly leading Clan Wolf anymore, and instead would be busy leading all the Clans.  The net result?  At worst, Clan Wolf slows down without Ulric's attention and at best the other Clans' progress speeds up.

Funny thing is none of the other Clans fully heeded to his advice.  And, btw, elevating him was their backup plan if their charges didn't stick and they elevated him to remove a Warden Khan from the Grand Council thinking he would chose Conal Ward as his successor.

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I.e, They gave him a job to keep him from leading Clan Wolf- and he led Clan Wolf anyway.  To add insult to injury, he then abused the job to cripple the other Clans.

And?  So did his predecessor and plenty of other previous ilKhans.

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Basically:
1)  Ulric intentionally setups a de facto Trial of Absorption between the Jade Falcons and Clan Wolf.  This is in the novels- Natural Selection IIRC.  In any case, when Chistu (may have been Crichell) calls Natasha to hear Clan Wolf's bid for the Trial of Refusal, Ulric is present.  Natasha says Ulric will make the bid-  he bids the entire Clan which horrifies the Falcon Khan.  He outright says that bid would turn the Trial into one of Absorption.  Ulric smiles that 'magnificent bastard' smile of his he mocks the Falcon with a 'No, no!  It's a Trial of Refusal...'

It's debatable as to what the outcome would have been had Chistu not murdered Ulric.  Even without Phelan's Wolves, who eliminated two Falcon Galaxies after their defection to the Inner Sphere, there was a chance for Clan Wolf to win the Refusal War.  Note:  even if Clan Wolf had won, both Clans' toumans would have been heavily depleted.

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2)  Ulric then sends Clan Wolf best and most Warden forces (with Phelan) to the Inner Sphere on Arc Royal to keep them safe.  While in transit, Phelan plays a recording left by Ulric where he reveals that a) Phelan and his wolves are to remain permanently  in the Inner Sphere and Ulric had the path home erased from the computers to prevent them from *ever* returning.  In addition, because Ulric knew moving the charges to the Grand Council would mean losing his ilKhanship, he's using the recording to create a new Bloodname for Phelan in advance as his last act as ilKhan.

One, debatable whether Ulric sent all the best and most Warden forces with Phelan.  The elite 11th Battle Cluster remained with the Crusader Wolves and there were sufficient elite warriors to prevent a Trial of Absorption by another Clan.  As part of their security procedures, no Clan WarShip had the entire Exodus Route stored on their computers.  This is mentioned several times.

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That means Ulric knew that while he was still ilKhan that he was going to be sending Phelan to the Inner Sphere, and that he was going to bid the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons.  This was all planned out.  All of it.

Not quite all planned out.  He planned out what he could in the little time he had available.  After all while he was able to provide them with production specs for Omnis and some lower caste civilians, he was unable to provide them with the equipment to produce them.  Phelan's Wolves had to take it from the Ghost Bears.

It's been noted in previous threads that Ulric could have easily avoided the charges and the Refusal War but still have undermined the invasion simply by allowing the Invading Clans to strike at one another and allowing HW Clans to trial for a limited number of IS worlds.  It would have blooded the Crusader Clans, undermined their preparations for a renewed Invasion, helped secure his own position by making the HW Clans happy as well as causing further conflict between HW and Invading Clans and possibly even led to the ouster of a Crusader Clan from the invasion force (probably only to replaced by another Crusader Clan but still-it would have further undermined the Crusaders).

For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #24 on: 27 May 2014, 08:55:32 »
Summary:
Crusader: Yes.
Warden: No.
Crusader: Yes.
Warden: No.
Crusader: Yes.
Warden: No.
Crusader: Yes!
Warden: No!

rebs

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #25 on: 27 May 2014, 18:06:40 »
For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.

Good debate, guys. 

I just wanted to throw in that the first hint of Inner Sphere taint amongst the Clans was first mentioned by Ulric Kerensky himself, when he noted how the Clans had changed just before the battle on Tukayyid.  He said that the deeper the Clans penetrate into the IS, the more it irrevocably changes what they are.  Aidan Pryde spoke of it too, in Falcon Guard, mentioning the ilKhan's speech as he wondered if the Falcons should imitate the Wolves lines of supply leading back to the homeworlds.

I think we can open this question up further and ask did the Khans and other leaders of all Clans who pushed for the IS invasion betray the rest of the Clans?  It would be just as valid as singling out Ulric Kerensky, I feel. 
« Last Edit: 27 May 2014, 18:08:18 by rebs »

Trajan Helmer

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #26 on: 28 May 2014, 02:18:19 »
And?  Had he been a Crusader, he would probably have done the same thing.
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.   
Who was it that invited ComStar into the midst of the Clans?  Hint:  It wasn't Ulric.
Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

... And, btw, elevating him was their backup plan if their charges didn't stick and they elevated him to remove a Warden Khan from the Grand Council thinking he would chose Conal Ward as his successor.

It was the long-standing tradition in that Clan for the Loremaster to become Khan in that case. Ulric broke with it was all that was done.
And?  So did his predecessor and plenty of other previous ilKhans.
Hmm, nope. Only the Cloud Cobra ilKhan, Tchernikov (can't remember the name) was a murderer of the previous holder. He was also noted for putting his own Clan above the interest of promoting fairness amongst all the Clans. Leo Showers approved PGCs for his own Clan before allowing all the others to do the same. Besides trying to slow the Wolf advance, I can find no other issue that could come close to what Ulric did.
It's debatable as to what the outcome would have been had Chistu not murdered Ulric. 
According to Wolf tastes, it was noted to be a clever use of resources, only the Falcons, also noted to be hidebound about traditions then, would've seen it as such. At least as the two participants in that fight matter.
Even without Phelan's Wolves, who eliminated two Falcon Galaxies after their defection to the Inner Sphere, there was a chance for Clan Wolf to win the Refusal War. 
Nope, only Vau Galaxy under GC Angela Somebloodnameorother was brought down on Morges. Silly girl didn't take the Kell Hounds into account.
Before Phelan's group was attacked on said planet, they had already been Abjured. If Clan Wolf had fought on Derf instead of double jumping to Wotan first, they likely would have been defeated in detail. Sources point to Wolf supplies and personnel to be low before reaching Derf which is why they went to Wotan to finish the fight there instead. Also keep in mind, the Wolves fought very loosely according to zellbrigen whereas the Falcons did not deviate from it at all.  Up to Chistu's, "creativity," there is nothing that can be said against the Falcon's honor to that point concerning the war.

One, debatable whether Ulric sent all the best and most Warden forces with Phelan. 
Ulric, Natasha, and Phelan chose who they thought were the best Wardens. The litmus test must've been more political than martial skill in that regard. It's probable the 11th Battle was more loyal to the Clan(s) than to Ulric or Phelan personally.

It's been noted in previous threads that Ulric could have easily avoided the charges and the Refusal War but still have undermined the invasion simply by allowing the Invading Clans to strike at one another and allowing HW Clans to trial for a limited number of IS worlds.  It would have blooded the Crusader Clans, undermined their preparations for a renewed Invasion, helped secure his own position by making the HW Clans happy as well as causing further conflict between HW and Invading Clans and possibly even led to the ouster of a Crusader Clan from the invasion force (probably only to replaced by another Crusader Clan but still-it would have further undermined the Crusaders).

Problem is previous discussion threads aren't canon.
For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.
Regardless of point of view, Ulric has gone down in Clan history as a guilty traitor to the Clans. We all know he was a political and martial genius, but he became a traitor when he was convicted of the charge (baseless it may be in our eyes), caused the death of the original Clan Wolf, and died knowingly in his own defense against the representatives of the Grand Council decision, Clan Jade Falcon.  Thems the breaks, I guess. The Falcons destroyed their longtime foe, but Vlad resurrected the new Clan Wolf.

I think we can open this question up further and ask did the Khans and other leaders of all Clans who pushed for the IS invasion betray the rest of the Clans?  It would be just as valid as singling out Ulric Kerensky, I feel. 

No offense, but a different thread should be made since it goes way off the OP's premise.
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Archangel

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #27 on: 28 May 2014, 04:48:47 »
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.

As the famous quote goes: "Huh?".  I was talking about Ulric being a crusader although if one of the Falcon Khans saw an advantage to adding a crusader Clan to the Wolf corridor they probably would have done so.

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Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

Leo Showers invited the proverbial snake into the nest.  If he hadn't done that Focht would have had a far more difficult time coming up with a strategy for Tukayyid.

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It was the long-standing tradition in that Clan for the Loremaster to become Khan in that case. Ulric broke with it was all that was done.

Tradition, not law.  And Ulric had proven that he would break with tradition whenever it suited him.  Conal Ward, who had sparred with him in Clan Wolf's Clan Council on more than one occasion, was very aware of this.

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Hmm, nope. Only the Cloud Cobra ilKhan, Tchernikov (can't remember the name) was a murderer of the previous holder.  He was also noted for putting his own Clan above the interest of promoting fairness amongst all the Clans. Leo Showers approved PGCs for his own Clan before allowing all the others to do the same. Besides trying to slow the Wolf advance, I can find no other issue that could come close to what Ulric did.

I was talking about ilKhan's abusing the position for their own purposes (or their own Clans) rather than for the good of the Clans as a whole.  Leo Showers repeatedly abused his position to either insult Clan Wolf (arbitrarily assigning Clan Wolf to the corridor that appeared to offer the least chance for winning glory and honor and implying that they needed his supervision) or hamper their progress (by directly interfering with their operations and initially denying Ulric's request to bring PGCs forward despite having already given permission to his own Clan) while directing his own Clan's operations from the Clan Wolf flagship.

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According to Wolf tastes, it was noted to be a clever use of resources, only the Falcons, also noted to be hidebound about traditions then, would've seen it as such. At least as the two participants in that fight matter.

If it had come out not only would Chistu have been disgraced but the Falcons' honor as a whole would have been called into question by the Grand Council (especially by those who saw a chance of replacing them in the invasion).

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Nope, only Vau Galaxy under GC Angela Somebloodnameorother was brought down on Morges. Silly girl didn't take the Kell Hounds into account.

You are the one who is incorrect here.  Even the Falcons admit that they lost both Omicron AND Vau Galaxy (CC, p93).  Those two galaxies and their constituent parts were subsequently stricken from the Clan's honor roll.

[quote
Before Phelan's group was attacked on said planet, they had already been Abjured. If Clan Wolf had fought on Derf instead of double jumping to Wotan first, they likely would have been defeated in detail. Sources point to Wolf supplies and personnel to be low before reaching Derf which is why they went to Wotan to finish the fight there instead.
[/quote]

If they did this, if they did that.  They could also have gone to Derf and captured the Falcon's main supply depot in a combat drop.  It's pure speculation.  BTW Phelan's Wolves were abjured AFTER the Battle of Morges not before.  After all, they didn't b

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Also keep in mind, the Wolves fought very loosely according to zellbrigen whereas the Falcons did not deviate from it at all.  Up to Chistu's, "creativity," there is nothing that can be said against the Falcon's honor to that point concerning the war.

Actually from the beginning the Falcon Khans' honor could be called into question as they were conspiring with warriors (to make it worse they were junior warriors and one wasn't even bloodnamed).  The last time something like that happened was during the Blood Scandal.  Not to mention that the Falcons' overall strategy was more Clan Wolf than Clan Falcon in concept.  They used their less capable units to wear down the Wolf forces holding most of their elite forces back to strike once the Wolves were worn down.

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Ulric, Natasha, and Phelan chose who they thought were the best Wardens. The litmus test must've been more political than martial skill in that regard. It's probable the 11th Battle was more loyal to the Clan(s) than to Ulric or Phelan personally.

Did you even bother to check?  While it is unclear whether they were ordered to join up with Phelan, it is clearly stated that they were unable to make it off Wotan.
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Øystein

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #28 on: 28 May 2014, 10:52:19 »
Tradition, not law.  And Ulric had proven that he would break with tradition whenever it suited him.  Conal Ward, who had sparred with him in Clan Wolf's Clan Council on more than one occasion, was very aware of this.
Ulric broke nothing, it was Conal's own stupidity that lost him the shot at the position.  Don't suggest someone else as a better choice if you want it yourself, someone might take you at your word :D




solmanian

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Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
« Reply #29 on: 28 May 2014, 11:45:04 »
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.    Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

If we're assuming that Ulric is the same guy, except for being a warden it is. A crusader Khan would still won't to hinder his competing clans while enforcing his own clan with an old time ally...

Being crusaders doesn't make clanners into singleminded force primarily interested with the glory of the clans over his own clan. The clan that would reach Terra first would become the ilclan, and it's khan an undisputed ilkahn. For any ilkhan to allow any other clan than his own to achieve that, is negligent, not altruistic.

This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.    Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

It was the long-standing tradition in that Clan for the Loremaster to become Khan in that case. Ulric broke with it was all that was done.Hmm, nope. Only the Cloud Cobra ilKhan, Tchernikov (can't remember the name) was a murderer of the previous holder. He was also noted for putting his own Clan above the interest of promoting fairness amongst all the Clans. Leo Showers approved PGCs for his own Clan before allowing all the others to do the same. Besides trying to slow the Wolf advance, I can find no other issue that could come close to what Ulric did.
What?  :o Ulric didn't murder his predecessor. Showers committed assisted suicide by stupidity with the help of Tyra Miraborg... Ulric wasn't extraordinarily manipulative and bias compared to other clan ilkhans going back Nick.

"Promoting fairness"? It's the clans... "Might makes right"... While it's grunted about, mistaking the wellness of his own clan for the wellness of all clans is common.

Also, Tchernikov was the victim...

According to Wolf tastes, it was noted to be a clever use of resources, only the Falcons, also noted to be hidebound about traditions then, would've seen it as such. At least as the two participants in that fight matter.

Also keep in mind, the Wolves fought very loosely according to zellbrigen whereas the Falcons did not deviate from it at all.  Up to Chistu's, "creativity," there is nothing that can be said against the Falcon's honor to that point concerning the war.

Calling fire support to save your ass during a duel, is not "creative"... When the clan widowmaker pulled the same stunt, it led to a trial of annihilation. Only the crusader corruption prevent that fate from befalling the dezgra falcons.

"We were totally honorable until the part where we weren't" isn't much of an argument. Try using it at court and watch as hilarity ensues.


Problem is previous discussion threads aren't canon. Regardless of point of view, Ulric has gone down in Clan history as a guilty traitor to the Clans. We all know he was a political and martial genius, but he became a traitor when he was convicted of the charge (baseless it may be in our eyes), caused the death of the original Clan Wolf, and died knowingly in his own defense against the representatives of the Grand Council decision, Clan Jade Falcon.  Thems the breaks, I guess. The Falcons destroyed their longtime foe, but Vlad resurrected the new Clan Wolf.
"Baseless it may be in our eyes"? Than what is this thread? I thought we were discussing how we as outside posters feel about UK, not how the bias clans do...

I think we can open this question up further and ask did the Khans and other leaders of all Clans who pushed for the IS invasion betray the rest of the Clans?  It would be just as valid as singling out Ulric Kerensky, I feel. 
No offense, but a different thread should be made since it goes way off the OP's premise.
I disagree. Throughout his term as khan and ilkhan, Ulric was held to a different standard than the crusaders who used their majority in the council to abuse the wardens, and the wolves and Ulric in particular.

It's imperative to compare him to his contemporary counterparts in his clan and others, since this are the only true standards. You can't declare him treasonous, if he wasn't more "treasonous" than his peers who were immune from prosecution by virtue of belonging to the now defunct crusaders.
In the dark age, where the majority of the clans can be considered wardens (or at least not "crusaders"), I doubt many clanners outside the wolf clans spend much time contemplating Ulric in any way. CWX probably idolize him, and CW at the very least appreciate that everything they have achieved is thanks to him.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

 

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