MOTW: Flamberge

[Alex Keller]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned that the Jade Falcons no longer have access to the Night Gyr design.  The Night Gyr is produced on Ironhold.  With the Falcons getting chased out of the homeworlds, they lose access to the manufacturing plant and only source of Night-Gyrs.

One of the reasons for the Flamberge is so the Falcons can have a heavy-hitting omni-mech again.  So... I think this design makes perfect sense. 

[Neufeld]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned that the Jade Falcons no longer have access to the Night Gyr design.  The Night Gyr is produced on Ironhold.  With the Falcons getting chased out of the homeworlds, they lose access to the manufacturing plant and only source of Night-Gyrs.

One of the reasons for the Flamberge is so the Falcons can have a heavy-hitting omni-mech again.  So... I think this design makes perfect sense.

Factories can be rebuilt.

[Alex Keller]

Yes.... but the Falcons had a choice on whether they would build factories in the OZ to build the Night Gyr or the Flamberge.  They Falcons decided to spend their resources on the Flamberge. 

[Iron Mongoose]

Its not a bad call if the factory is lost.  They're pretty similar, but I think th Flamberge is Falconier.  Though I think the Night Gyr, lost or not, is the better fighter.  Its just got too many guns for the Flamerge's extra mobility, so dearly won with thouse heavy IJJs, to make a huge difrence.

[Alex Keller]

I think the Falcon leaders must have decided that they wanted the extra mobility over extra firepower.  Maybe that's what made them decide on approving the Flamberge over the Night Gyr

[Kit deSummersville]

Its not a bad call if the factory is lost.  They're pretty similar, but I think th Flamberge is Falconier.  Though I think the Night Gyr, lost or not, is the better fighter.  Its just got too many guns for the Flamerge's extra mobility, so dearly won with thouse heavy IJJs, to make a huge difrence.

The two are pretty similar, the Flamberge having more room and the Night Gyr more payload. The fixed jump jets on the Night Gyr limit it a bit more, IMHO.

[Iron Mongoose]

More than the fixed SRMs on the Flamberge?  I'd tend to call it a toss up.  A Flamberge made for range struggles as much as a Night Gyr made for the plains.

[Alex Keller]

More than the fixed SRMs on the Flamberge?  I'd tend to call it a toss up.  A Flamberge made for range struggles as much as a Night Gyr made for the plains.

Yes, I suppose  the Flamberge 2 & 3 can close range pretty well when it needs to.

[Headshot]

Its just got too many guns for the Flamerge's extra mobility, so dearly won with thouse heavy IJJs, to make a huge difrence.

Whats stopping you from not mounting the IJJs and instead piling up on the big guns in Night Gyr/Nova Cat style?

[Kit deSummersville]

Whats stopping you from not mounting the IJJs and instead piling up on the big guns in Night Gyr/Nova Cat style?

Nothing, one of the configurations does mount normal jump jets.

[Iron Mongoose]

Its true, when you look at the base chassies, they are remarkably close.  Both have roughly the same amount of pod space (38 for the Night Gyr vs 35 for the Flamberge) almost the same amount of armor (the Gyr has 5 points more, with slender advantages in all torso sections, with the Flamberge havng more in the legs and on the rear) the same amount of fixed equipment (4tons of jets vs 3 tons of SRMs, and the burden of finding room for ammo).  The Flamberge does have a bit more pod space (standard armor is used, and the SRMs take up fewer crits than the JJs, though the Night Gyr does win back with one more fixed sink).  There's not one catagory in which one side is fully better, and each has its advantages. 

The reason I see the Night Gyr as the clear choice, though this is for my fighting style and the way I like to get down, and not in terms of overall utility which is harder to mesure, is because of how the veriants went.  The two main combat versions use either 12 or 10 tons of IJJs, leaving too little room to mount a really blistering arsonal.  The Prime is a nasty infighter, with four MPLs, two ATM6s, and two SRM6s.  But that compaires closely with the Night Gyr E, which has six MPLs, just one of each SRM and ATM6, but an extra two LPLs to make up for its lack of mobility.  If its me, I'm betting on the extra fire power (pulse power in this case, which is helpful here) to trump and extra 2 MPs.  The Flamberge A is a bit harder to match, since the Night Gyr lacks a TC/Pulse veriant, and the Night Gyr's own TC veriant can be cheritably refered to as problematic, with its three Ultra2s.  Even then, that C veriant can match Quinn Kerensky's ride for power at range while adding even greater range (the longer medium brackets on the Ultras can almost make up for the lack of pulse mods, though they're still two point plinkers even then, accurate or not) and its got much better heat managment, alowing it to keep up a more sustained fire.  The Night Gyr lacks fancy artilery or anti armor veriants, so its harder to compaire the other two, but the B with its Ultra 2s makes a decent tank hunter and offers comperable over all power with the GRs, and you can always just take the Prime or A or D and just blast enemies into oblivion by pure power, which the Flamberge can't really match.

[Headshot]

Well, if you insist on recognizing only the canon configs, then you're correct, yes.

Otherwise, my question still stands. Its an OMNI after all.

[ShockaTime]

Well, if you insist on recognizing only the canon configs, then you're correct, yes.

Otherwise, my question still stands. Its an OMNI after all.

Like Kit said, there is nothing stopping you from mounting standard JJs, one of the configs (C I believe) already does this.

[ItsTehPope]

Like Kit said, there is nothing stopping you from mounting standard JJs, one of the configs (C I believe) already does this.

Hell, one one of the configs dosen't jump at all.

[Iron Mongoose]

It is true, I do submit that.  If two equaly skillful customizers are going at it, it would be unbearably close between the two.  The Flamberge has more flexability with its free crit space, but the Night Gyr has more pure pod space.  I'd still pick the customizer in the Gyr to win 55% of the time, and I'd place myself in that role if I could, but I wouldn't be sad to be assigned the Flamberge, and I'd absolutly pit it against a Nova Cat or Timby or whatever, even customized with skill equal to mine in its configuration. 

But, I don't see that the canon veriants do that, and to me that is a big part of a mech's feel and cherictor.  Mechs like the Summoner or Warhawk tend to have reputations as ranged fighters, despite being omnis and being able to run close combat veriants with ease (the Summoner C is actualy one of the best Summoners, even).  Timbies and Mad Dogs have a feel as semetical mechs with missiles, despite the existance of asimetrical veriants and ones with out missiles.  The Flamberge has a feel of a mech that is 1) pretty nimble for a 4/6/x mech, reflecting the Falcon love of jumping and speed and 2) tends to carry some fun little things, rather than just big guns.  Lots of TCs, lots of JJs or IJJs, plasma cannons, artilery.  There's not one veriant that just packs on guns and heatsinks.  There's noting wrong with that.  TCs and JJs and artilery and plasmas are good stuff, and some of the resualting configurations are really excelent.  I love TCs, I love JJs (which is why I don't object in the least to the Gyr's JJs being fixed, or the Summoner's or Turkina's) and I'm one of the bigger defenders of the plasma cannon (though I am a bit iffy about mech artilery).  But, sometimes what you need is just guns, guns and more guns, and just maybe a heat sink or two to let you use them, and the Flamberge as it stands fails to offer such a veriant.  So that's why I feel how I do.  It has a canon cherictor about it, a feel to how it is and how it should be, in terms of the art and in terms of the fluff and in terms of the veriants we're given.  So if anyone wants to go wild customizing it, then let them.  Perhaps we can start a thread for it.  But, I'd still pit a similarly customized Night Gyr against what ever anyone can come up with.

[Ian Sharpe]

I see the Flamberge more as bridging the gap between the Summoner and Night Gyr, able to pack near Night Gyr firepower without any JJs while still being able to mount the newest toys(IJJs) to allow it to keep up with the 5/8/5 Summoners.  The configs let it a down a little in that regard, but since end users can change those, I'm not unduly worried by that. 

[sunshadow]

If you guys think the Flamberge two is bad, I think I might have topped it... I've built a custom version (it IS an omnimech) that has an SRM-6 with a ton of ammo, an ERM, and a pair of micro pulses to kill any squishy things. The nasty part is the boomstick I gave it - a Gauss Rifle with three tons of ammo and a tarcomp to make sure it hits. It also builds up only 15 heat at max, and it dissipates 25 just from the wings and engine sinks. Ugh.

[Kit deSummersville]

The Omni does not have partial wings.

[ItsTehPope]

The Omni does not have partial wings.

the Omni also has a second locked in SRM6

[sunshadow]

rats. never mind about the custom then.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I tried using an A variant over the summer.

Went 50/50 between standard SRMs and Infernos- seriously brutal there, since I was able to bounce around, get into bad firing arcs for my opponent, and grease him with Inferno rounds to keep him either overheating or undershooting while I punched holes in him.  Those times I fired off all standard missiles were pretty spectacular, too.

[Diplominator]

Here's a couple questions.

1. Disregarding briefly the inefficiency issues, is there a hard and fast rule as to why Artemis IV or V could not be attached to the fixed SRMs? SSW does not allow it because the fire control Must Be Underneath The Launcher and That Is Where The Endo Steel Goes. I'm fairly sure that that is something of a problem, but I'm not sure.

2. Now inefficiency issues are fair play again. Especially when using IJJ, the Flamberge is pretty crit-starved. Would the improved accuracy and huge cluster hits bonus be worth trying to cram in Artemis V? I forsee rather a lot of ERLLs to use the tonnage, but is it even worth considering? I can take this question to BattleMech Designs if it gets too design-y, but it's more about whether or not Artemis V is worth having on SRMs. I love it on LRMs, but for three tons you could just have an SSRM-6 for an extra crit and more range...except on the Flamberge where no, no you can't. Because the missiles attached to the torso wings are A) stuck and B) somehow arms.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't consider Artemis to be an efficient use of tonnage for SRMs.  I'd probably just use a NARC pod.

[Diplominator]

I agree for Artemis IV, and I actually really like narc on the Flamberge since it's fast enough to use it and it's a fairly dense (mass/crit) component. Artemis V, on the other hand, is way better for half a ton more. I wouldn't use it for anything but the -6, but the increased accuracy is attractive with all the jumping about.

If it's allowed, that is.

[A. Lurker]

1. Disregarding briefly the inefficiency issues, is there a hard and fast rule as to why Artemis IV or V could not be attached to the fixed SRMs? SSW does not allow it because the fire control Must Be Underneath The Launcher and That Is Where The Endo Steel Goes. I'm fairly sure that that is something of a problem, but I'm not sure.

No such rule that I can find. An Omni with a fixed launcher in a location that has no free slots left over in that location to install Artemis IV in can't use Artemis IV at all because it's either all launchers or nothing and in this case there's always one that can't be upgraded, so none of them can be -- but that doesn't apply to the Flamberge, or any other Omni that has fixed LRM/SRM/MML racks somewhere and the slots to pod-mount Artemis for them there as well.

(There's also no construction rule stating which specific free slots in a location a given item must occupy -- there's one saying that multi-slot items have to be contiguous in their location unless noted otherwise, but nothing about their exact placement --, so if SSW really insists that the Artemis system has to go into the slot right below its associated launcher it's talking out of its virtual rear end.)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's probably just a case of the way SSW's coding works for the purpose of omnimechs and fixed equipment.

As A. Lurker says, there's nothing that says that fixed equipment must occupy the exact same critical hit locations, so as long as you're not shifting them to a different part of the mech it should be fine.

[Kit deSummersville]

Yeah, the critical placement within a location isn't a rule, just a guideline that the RS folk use to be consistent. I believe the only requirement is that each piece of equipment is contiguous within a location (e.g. no medium laser in the middle of one AC/20).

[Fallen_Raven]

(There's also no construction rule stating which specific free slots in a location a given item must occupy -- there's one saying that multi-slot items have to be contiguous in their location unless noted otherwise, but nothing about their exact placement --, so if SSW really insists that the Artemis system has to go into the slot right below its associated launcher it's talking out of its virtual rear end.)

The SSW problem seems to stem fro the fact that the coding has Artemis as part of the launcher. As in an SRM 2 is a different item than a SRM 2 w/ Artemis IV. The way SSW has things coded requires that Artemis be right after the launcher to be a contigous peie of equipment.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

So necroing an old post, but I was looking over the record sheets to this mech due to planning for an upcoming game and got to wondering: in-universe, did the Flamberge 3 inspire the Jade Phoenix 3?

[jymset]

Possibly, because out of universe, the JP was definitely inspired by various other Mechs' configs/variants. The A definitely looked towards the Flamberge 3.